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2021/02/22 22:13:55
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Yeah, that guy is awesome, his blightlord video was absolutely great..
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/02/22 23:36:06
Subject: Re:Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
I really like a list with loads of plague marines but find it hard not to include quite a few Daemon engines. Do you not get shot to bits before you can close the distance? You have next to no shooting.
Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 140pts]: Heavy blight launcher
+ Heavy Support +
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
++ Total: [104 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
My opponent is bringing a.Khorne W/E chaos space marine list that is combat death! Not using Morty as we want to keep things more even. Have used him twice and once he dominated, second he was killed first turn! Either way kinda skewed the game!
2021/02/23 00:33:54
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
You take a -2 penalty if you walk through difficult terrain, but don’t take it if you advance or charge through it?
It seems to work against tanglefoot.
Really our chapter trait is quite literally the worst in the game. Even getting to move and rapid fire always with bolters ONLY matters on PMs since all terminators already could do it. The IA movement nerf just made a bad chapter trait worse. Just stupid how the terrible IA only works on 1/3 our stuff.
Advancing still counts as moving so you'd still get it. Charging I'd have to look.
Tanglefoot will effect you in the charge phase but NOT the movement phase'.
...IA units can ignore any or all modifiers to move characteristics, advance rolls, and charge rolls.
Tanglefoot won’t work on IA units in either the charge or movement phase.
Also, the way IA is worded if you advance or charge through difficult terrain you won’t suffer the penalty.
There was a FAQ today. GW disagrees. It says Difficult Terrain is not effecting the Move characteristic, just the movement distance, which is separate. Thus, Difficult Terrain is not stopped by IA as IA only protects the Move characteristic. Advancing still uses your Move distance.
Similarly, in the chage phase, Tanglefoot grenade does not effect the charge roll, just the charge distance.
Maybe you are right about the advance rolls. However, unless they FAQ it will work on tanglefoot. The RAW means the charge distance would actually be reduced with tanglefoot. The term ‘charge distance’ isn’t even in the rules.
Otherwise this would honesty make the IA ability the most useless in the game. I don’t think RAW/RAI that is how it is correct. They likely didn’t think it through or this will be changed as codexes come out.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 01:27:31
2021/02/23 05:07:46
Subject: Re:Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Regarding our secondaries, I have to agree that they aren’t good enough for similar reasons.
Despoiled ground only including heretic astartes is a big problem, but the bigger problem is it competes with engage on all fronts and domination, which are better options IMO.
Same thing with spread the sickness. The D3 mortal wounds is a problem, but so is competing with raise banners is much worse. I’ve found banners to be better in almost ever situation.
Ironically enough this leaves the morale failure as the only option I might use from our book, but we all know the problems with this one.
2021/02/23 08:54:53
Subject: Re:Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Tremble wrote: My opponent is bringing a.Khorne W/E chaos space marine list that is combat death! Not using Morty as we want to keep things more even. Have used him twice and once he dominated, second he was killed first turn! Either way kinda skewed the game!
With that second game, you learned the great lesson of World Eaters: never charge Berzerkers.
Your list looks good but I'd like to see a Flail on each Plague Marine unit, a Fleshmower on each Drone, and maybe a third PBC.
Since you mentioned Daemon Engines - any idea how PBCs stack up against Defilers? I have 3 Defilers sitting around and don't know whether or not to build them.
IMO defilers have the same problem as they had in the old codex - since they are lacking DR, all the 2 damage weapons will default to shooting them.
You can probably protect one with smoke screen, but two or three are unlikely to make sense.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/02/23 14:48:12
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Same thing with spread the sickness. The D3 mortal wounds is a problem, but so is competing with raise banners is much worse. I’ve found banners to be better in almost ever situation.
no because when you contaminate an obj your opponent cant do anything to deny score point, with raise the banner he can
Despoiled ground only including heretic astartes is a big problem
Are you aware that an average decent DG list have 4-6 bubotic astarted units in list?
I really like a list with loads of plague marines but find it hard not to include quite a few Daemon engines. Do you not get shot to bits before you can close the distance? You have next to no shooting.
Foetid Bloat-drone [7 PL, 140pts]: Heavy blight launcher
+ Heavy Support +
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Entropy cannon, Heavy slugger
++ Total: [104 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
My opponent is bringing a.Khorne W/E chaos space marine list that is combat death! Not using Morty as we want to keep things more even. Have used him twice and once he dominated, second he was killed first turn! Either way kinda skewed the game!
the list is ok, if i can give you just a suggestion...take off blight launcher drone and couple of poxwalkers and play 3 extra deathshrouds and give one unit the reaper of glorious entropy
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 15:00:24
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2021/02/23 16:24:37
Subject: Re:Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Sorry guys I’m going to be that guy for second here. The list posted above is good for...
1) Being a nice jumping off point for getting into deathguard.
2) being a fun army that will teach you tactics for the army.
3) Being a strong contender list in your local meta.
However, it is not a competitive (tournament) list by any stretch for one reason. As stated throughout this thread over and over again (including last page) plague marines are not good enough. To put it more bluntly, putting plague marines in your list actively lowers your chance of winning at a competitive level. I wish this wasn’t the case and I like that people are trying to make fluffy armies, but for the sake of lurkers in this thread I have to make it clear that plague marines are a bad competitive option. They die to way more things than terminators, and in order to make them kill more than terminators this problem just gets exacerbated. (As now you are losing more PPM for every guy that dies).
Plague marines are most likely why Tremble had problems with World eaters. Our terminators have no issues dealing with bezerkers, but plague marines need to be worried of them. Likewise our terminators can handle things like redemptor dreadnoughts with ease, but plague marines... How about custodes stuff? You guessed it. Our terminators crush them but plague marines just die. The list goes on and on.
Plague marine spam is just trying to polish a turf for fluff reasons. It looks good on the table and can win some games, but it’s upside is just non-existent at the moment. Maybe New rules change this, but at the moment please don’t play plague marines if you are trying to be competitive.
2021/02/23 17:33:34
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
pity that 2 out of 3 lists at last 26 players tournaments in australia had PM, one of them the 4th place (4-1 record) Dg had 30 pm in list and 15 termies. Problem in list above is lack of termies but PM can be playable, i still think that perhaps PM aren't mandatory but you can compete at all.
Ashley Reid 4th place list
focus trying to delete 30PM and you will lose anyway for 16 termies that delete your units and score points, get too close and you get tons of autowound -1/-2ap bolter shots, 10 PM deliver 27 hits in melee and if neede 10more with stratagem, dont underestimate them, actual 9th ed lists have lot of d3 or 2D weapons fairly ineffective against PM. That said i think DG codex give you lot of versatility, im not sure what we will play in future but i will think twice before put some unit on shelf.
PS: i keep wonder why ppls keep evaluate units based on how much killy they are (still 8th ed, syndrome i believe), PM DONT need to kill anything they touch, for that task we have BL/DS, they have to be a durable bunch of scoring models, if you demand you can play only PM and deal with anything you are playing wrong, try mix PM and termies.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 17:45:43
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2021/02/23 18:07:02
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
HBL drones are fine. About half as deadly against Primaris equivalents as the mower but will get kills first and second turn to balance out.
It's much more versatile too, can do damage from on top of terrain to avoid being tagged if needed and get even better when contagion auras start kicking in and you're wounding on 2s.
best drone is the mower one 12 attacks wound primaris on 2's rerolling one's, drones are not core they dont get any reroll and just 6 hits is really too few, just a -1 to hit and you make no significant damage, DG have a strong ability called -1T use it at your advantage , ask yourself why no one play that kind of loadout, play DG like vanilla marines trying to outgun opponent dont work. imho
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/23 21:44:09
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2021/02/23 22:27:46
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Mower kills 5 Primaris in combat. HBL kills 2 or 3 in shooting, then probably another if you follow up with charge.
But that's the beauty of the HBL, you don't need to ram it down your opponent's throat so it probably survives longer. It can sit and be resilient on an objective, by turn two or three probably what it's shooting at is in contagion range anyway so it gets even better.
Regardless, you said above people should stop evaluating units by what they kill. The HBL drone plays the mission better than the mower and can continue to contribute with good shooting while it does.
It's good to have some versatility. I've run a pair of mowers and a HBL drone together in several games now and always thought the HBL contributed more. I have since dropped one of the mowers from my list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/23 23:03:59
blackmage wrote: pity that 2 out of 3 lists at last 26 players tournaments in australia had PM, one of them the 4th place (4-1 record) Dg had 30 pm in list and 15 termies. Problem in list above is lack of termies but PM can be playable, i still think that perhaps PM aren't mandatory but you can compete at all.
Ashley Reid 4th place list
focus trying to delete 30PM and you will lose anyway for 16 termies that delete your units and score points, get too close and you get tons of autowound -1/-2ap bolter shots, 10 PM deliver 27 hits in melee and if neede 10more with stratagem, dont underestimate them, actual 9th ed lists have lot of d3 or 2D weapons fairly ineffective against PM. That said i think DG codex give you lot of versatility, im not sure what we will play in future but i will think twice before put some unit on shelf.
PS: i keep wonder why ppls keep evaluate units based on how much killy they are (still 8th ed, syndrome i believe), PM DONT need to kill anything they touch, for that task we have BL/DS, they have to be a durable bunch of scoring models, if you demand you can play only PM and deal with anything you are playing wrong, try mix PM and termies.
That’s a fine example, but I have a 3 points against it.
1) Deathguard were extremely new when this tournament took place. At this time most people were not as focused on countering DG yet For example a lot more D2 stuff was used than what we can expect in the future.
2) The list went 4-1. While that may not seem like too much of difference vs 5-0, that lost game is weighted much more than each of the 4 wins. Simply having 1 loss means at least one type of build is problematic for this army, and it’s likely much more than that can win against the PM. Especially when we factor in point 3.
3) You can’t weigh a 26 man Australian tournament that highly. Pre-COVID this kind of tournament would barely register on anyone’s radar and for good reason. A) the Aussie meta has always been know to be weird (and be extension weaker than the rest of the worlds meta, otherwise we would see more of their strategies at world events like LVO). More importantly, a 26 man tournament just isn’t big enough to draw major conclusions from. I should know I’ve gotten 3rd at a 32 man (or 36 man I can’t remember) tournament, and basically nobody outside of local meta cared. Honestly, now that I’ve gone to an 80 man tournament I am certain this makes sense, as what goes 5-1 and 6-0 at a local tournament will go 4-2 or 3-3 at a large tournament. Which leads me to my conclusion.
PM limit upside. You can and will do well with them, but they simply don’t preform against certain lists. That’s what I was mainly arguing above ,even though I was too harsh. It’s like trying to play for fools (scholars) mate in chess. It will work against a lot of opponents, but once you start playing more competitively, this type of strategy will actively hurt your chances of winning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote: Mower kills 5 Primaris in combat. HBL kills 2 or 3 in shooting, then probably another if you follow up with charge.
But that's the beauty of the HBL, you don't need to ram it down your opponent's throat so it probably survives longer. It can sit and be resilient on an objective, by turn two or three probably what it's shooting at is in contagion range anyway so it gets even better.
Regardless, you said above people should stop evaluating units by what they kill. The HBL drone plays the mission better than the mower and can continue to contribute with good shooting while it does.
It's good to have some versatility. I've run a pair of mowers and a HBL drone together in several games now and always thought the HBL contributed more. I have since dropped one of the mowers from my list.
I don’t quite understand why you think HBL drones play the mission better. General speaking charging and killing a unit on objectives is what you want to be doing, since you now own that objective rather than just stopping your opponent from owning it. In this case killing power does matter, since being able to wipe a unit allows you to take objective, In the example provided the HBL will leave a marine squad on an objective 1 turn longer than the mower drone, which is much, much worse.
As far as the durability things goes I don’t really agree on that either. DG is army about ramming threats down your opponents throat. It’s actually pretty easy for a mower drone to hit an area that’s inconvenient for your opponent, like a flank objective. If your opponent can shoot the drone off than its likely they can shoot off a HBL drone as well (unless you are playing too careful with the HBL or not enough careful with the mower drone)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/24 00:30:29
2021/02/24 00:42:50
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
While charging onto an objective is a major part of the game it's not everything. Sometimes you need a unit to hang back and respond to threats. They can also advance onto an uncontested objective and still shoot, or advance for engage/linebreaker and still shoot.
They can also reach out and remove units from distant objectives which is valuable in a slow army. We don't have an abundance of ranged anti infantry. Taking something off an objective is often as effective as claiming one yourself. With a 46"+ threat range you can pick and choose whichever objective is held most tenuously
I am struggling slightly with the new codex so any help is appreciated. This current list is what I physically have rather than the most optimised.
I am not a top tourny player although when things go back to normal I do hope to play DG at a few events - I live near Warhammer World so normally get to 3 or 4 events a year.
Main areas I cant figure out:
Going very Termy heavy - have not tried this as I dont see how it works against either fast or shooty armies. If I send 2 massive blocks of termies waddling up the field do people not just let me take 1 objective and kill everything else? While I fire out a few bolter shots and hardly hurt them? Particularily how do you use larger 5 man DS squads?
Explain how this works please and I may try it next week.
The Plague companies/WL trait contagions - these all seem extremely lackluster EXCEPT when taken by Mortarion, then they seem amazing. Are many of you getting much out of these additional contagions? I know the theory of throwing a drone forward but have not been able to get that to work so far.
Cheers again for the help!
2021/02/24 02:16:37
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
I find bloat drones die too easily, simply because they tend to end up the most forward and exposed. Now, if they were really cheap yet quite resilient, I think it would be fine, but Bloat drones aren't that cheap in terms of points. For the same amount of points of 1 bloat drone, you could get two squads of 3 Spawn. That's 24 wounds with DR compared to the bloat drone's 9W ...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tremble wrote: Thanks for the honest feedback on the list.
I am struggling slightly with the new codex so any help is appreciated. This current list is what I physically have rather than the most optimised.
I am not a top tourny player although when things go back to normal I do hope to play DG at a few events - I live near Warhammer World so normally get to 3 or 4 events a year.
Main areas I cant figure out:
Going very Termy heavy - have not tried this as I dont see how it works against either fast or shooty armies. If I send 2 massive blocks of termies waddling up the field do people not just let me take 1 objective and kill everything else? While I fire out a few bolter shots and hardly hurt them? Particularily how do you use larger 5 man DS squads?
Explain how this works please and I may try it next week.
The Plague companies/WL trait contagions - these all seem extremely lackluster EXCEPT when taken by Mortarion, then they seem amazing. Are many of you getting much out of these additional contagions? I know the theory of throwing a drone forward but have not been able to get that to work so far.
Cheers again for the help!
The heavy terminator list is based on math that the typical list will not be able to kill more than 1 or 2 DG terminators in one round (maybe 3), So, if you bring say 20 DG terminators. They literally cannot kill them even with 5 full rounds of shooting. Even if they fire everything at them each round. I am sure there are some tailored lists that will do well against a heavy DG terminator list. But those are tailored lists. Typical small arms fire have a tough time against DG terminators because 3W and T5 and 2+ save. Heavy weapon needs to punch through their 4++, and then get reduced by 1 damage anyway.
The heavy terminator lists is based on bullying the mid board objectives.
Say you march 5 blighlords squads (25 terminators) up the board, supported by characters. Turn 1, opponent kills 3 blightlords. Turn 2, He kills another 3 blightlords. Now you have 19 blightlords charging whatever is on the midboard objectives. Your typical list won't have be able to handle that kind of midboard pressure.
Now, lets say he gives up the midboard and tries to focus on shooting you off the board. So, you got 19 terminators on turn 2. 16 on turn 3, 13 on turn 4, 10 on turn 5. And this means that all game, your opponent gave up the midboard entirely just to do nothing but shoot you. At this point, he has lost the game, ahd He still haven't whittled down your terminator force to zero.
This is just an example of course. And btw, 25 blightlords means you are shooting out 100 bolter shots per turn. Its not like you are just sitting there doing nothing. Even vehicles will eventually get chipped down with that.
It takes 17 lascannon shots to kill 100 points worth of a blightlord terminator squad if its supported by a plague surgeon. So, even 3 tri lascannon predators tanks shooting all out won't kill off 1 squad. And the same squad requires 243 autoboltstorm shots or 81 heavy bolter shots to kill off 100 points worth. So, like I said, heavy DG terminator army is just about bullying the centre and daring your opponent to do his best (and failing) to kill you.
Opps, sorry, my bad, you can't use 5 squads of 5 blightlords as an example because of the rule of 3. So, 3 squads of blightlords and 2 squads of deathshrouds is a better example I guess. Or 2 squads of 10 and 1 squad of 5.
Also, you can't design a DG list with the goal of trying to outshoot your opponent. DG trades being slightly slower, weaker in shooting, for resilience and stronger in melee. If you keep trying to boost your DG list's shootiness, it will be at the cost of everything else, and you won't be playing to DG's strength. Not saying you totally forgo shooting. My opinion is that DG wants to have just enough shooting to take out the most dangerous threat, and then it ignores and tanks through everything else while doing its own thing (which is to bully the midboard).
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/02/24 03:15:16
2021/02/24 02:48:28
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
blackmage wrote: pity that 2 out of 3 lists at last 26 players tournaments in australia had PM, one of them the 4th place (4-1 record) Dg had 30 pm in list and 15 termies. Problem in list above is lack of termies but PM can be playable, i still think that perhaps PM aren't mandatory but you can compete at all.
Ashley Reid 4th place list
focus trying to delete 30PM and you will lose anyway for 16 termies that delete your units and score points, get too close and you get tons of autowound -1/-2ap bolter shots, 10 PM deliver 27 hits in melee and if neede 10more with stratagem, dont underestimate them, actual 9th ed lists have lot of d3 or 2D weapons fairly ineffective against PM. That said i think DG codex give you lot of versatility, im not sure what we will play in future but i will think twice before put some unit on shelf.
PS: i keep wonder why ppls keep evaluate units based on how much killy they are (still 8th ed, syndrome i believe), PM DONT need to kill anything they touch, for that task we have BL/DS, they have to be a durable bunch of scoring models, if you demand you can play only PM and deal with anything you are playing wrong, try mix PM and termies.
That’s a fine example, but I have a 3 points against it.
1) Deathguard were extremely new when this tournament took place. At this time most people were not as focused on countering DG yet For example a lot more D2 stuff was used than what we can expect in the future.
2) The list went 4-1. While that may not seem like too much of difference vs 5-0, that lost game is weighted much more than each of the 4 wins. Simply having 1 loss means at least one type of build is problematic for this army, and it’s likely much more than that can win against the PM. Especially when we factor in point 3.
3) You can’t weigh a 26 man Australian tournament that highly. Pre-COVID this kind of tournament would barely register on anyone’s radar and for good reason. A) the Aussie meta has always been know to be weird (and be extension weaker than the rest of the worlds meta, otherwise we would see more of their strategies at world events like LVO). More importantly, a 26 man tournament just isn’t big enough to draw major conclusions from. I should know I’ve gotten 3rd at a 32 man (or 36 man I can’t remember) tournament, and basically nobody outside of local meta cared. Honestly, now that I’ve gone to an 80 man tournament I am certain this makes sense, as what goes 5-1 and 6-0 at a local tournament will go 4-2 or 3-3 at a large tournament. Which leads me to my conclusion.
PM limit upside. You can and will do well with them, but they simply don’t preform against certain lists. That’s what I was mainly arguing above ,even though I was too harsh. It’s like trying to play for fools (scholars) mate in chess. It will work against a lot of opponents, but once you start playing more competitively, this type of strategy will actively hurt your chances of winning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abaddon303 wrote: Mower kills 5 Primaris in combat. HBL kills 2 or 3 in shooting, then probably another if you follow up with charge.
But that's the beauty of the HBL, you don't need to ram it down your opponent's throat so it probably survives longer. It can sit and be resilient on an objective, by turn two or three probably what it's shooting at is in contagion range anyway so it gets even better.
Regardless, you said above people should stop evaluating units by what they kill. The HBL drone plays the mission better than the mower and can continue to contribute with good shooting while it does.
It's good to have some versatility. I've run a pair of mowers and a HBL drone together in several games now and always thought the HBL contributed more. I have since dropped one of the mowers from my list.
I don’t quite understand why you think HBL drones play the mission better. General speaking charging and killing a unit on objectives is what you want to be doing, since you now own that objective rather than just stopping your opponent from owning it. In this case killing power does matter, since being able to wipe a unit allows you to take objective, In the example provided the HBL will leave a marine squad on an objective 1 turn longer than the mower drone, which is much, much worse.
As far as the durability things goes I don’t really agree on that either. DG is army about ramming threats down your opponents throat. It’s actually pretty easy for a mower drone to hit an area that’s inconvenient for your opponent, like a flank objective. If your opponent can shoot the drone off than its likely they can shoot off a HBL drone as well (unless you are playing too careful with the HBL or not enough careful with the mower drone)
I agree of course, remain fact that the perfect all around list dont and will not exist, i prefer bring 30 Pm than Mortarion that can be neutered by tons of units , regardles what ppls think or believe. I still tink that we will see more poxbringers than Pm that for sure, anwyay is a build that can give headaches to more then 1 list.
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2021/02/24 08:19:44
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
I was on team "PM are not worth it, take Terminators" - but I'm increasingly not convinced the gap is big enough for a hard "PM are not competitive, never take". If PM special weapons were 5 points I think things would be very close, perhaps even PM preferred.
Its right that 31 point PM are not tough. But you do have 21 point PM to die first, and they are not overly fragile* while its the 31 point guys doing the heavy lifting. In game, how this interaction plays out is why I don't think they are as bad as they might theoretically appear. In 5/10 strong squad with 2/4 specials, you are maybe 10-20 points over.
*They are a lot weaker than BL versus AP-, but at the same time, they don't give up a lot of points, its just shooting BL with such weapons is *awful*. Once you apply some AP, the difference narrows.
I'm also not convinced with the above argument that most armies will struggle to kill more than 3 Terminators a turn. I mean it sort of runs counter to "Stench Vats is an auto-include because there's a lot of assault units which can do a number on Terminators if they get to go first". (Which I was also initially a cynic of, but am increasingly be won over by.)
2021/02/24 10:48:42
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Tyel wrote: I was on team "PM are not worth it, take Terminators" - but I'm increasingly not convinced the gap is big enough for a hard "PM are not competitive, never take". If PM special weapons were 5 points I think things would be very close, perhaps even PM preferred.
Its right that 31 point PM are not tough. But you do have 21 point PM to die first, and they are not overly fragile* while its the 31 point guys doing the heavy lifting. In game, how this interaction plays out is why I don't think they are as bad as they might theoretically appear. In 5/10 strong squad with 2/4 specials, you are maybe 10-20 points over.
*They are a lot weaker than BL versus AP-, but at the same time, they don't give up a lot of points, its just shooting BL with such weapons is *awful*. Once you apply some AP, the difference narrows.
I'm also not convinced with the above argument that most armies will struggle to kill more than 3 Terminators a turn. I mean it sort of runs counter to "Stench Vats is an auto-include because there's a lot of assault units which can do a number on Terminators if they get to go first". (Which I was also initially a cynic of, but am increasingly be won over by.)
the PM spam in my opinion, work if you play lot of termies too. You force your opponent to take decisions, try to delete 30 pm, and let 16 termies do what they want, or shoot termies and dont have enough punch to dislodge Pm from obj? Again 9th is based on score points, not who kill more, so plan to play the mission, no matter how many PM/termies you lost, your opponent can table you end of turn 5 but if you scored 15x4 pts is usually too late.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 10:50:23
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2021/02/24 10:54:20
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
That matches my experience. If I have three squads of terminators, PM take a lot less heat then when I have Mortarion or a bunch of daemon engines on the table.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/02/24 11:10:11
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Tyel wrote: I was on team "PM are not worth it, take Terminators" - but I'm increasingly not convinced the gap is big enough for a hard "PM are not competitive, never take". If PM special weapons were 5 points I think things would be very close, perhaps even PM preferred.
Its right that 31 point PM are not tough. But you do have 21 point PM to die first, and they are not overly fragile* while its the 31 point guys doing the heavy lifting. In game, how this interaction plays out is why I don't think they are as bad as they might theoretically appear. In 5/10 strong squad with 2/4 specials, you are maybe 10-20 points over.
*They are a lot weaker than BL versus AP-, but at the same time, they don't give up a lot of points, its just shooting BL with such weapons is *awful*. Once you apply some AP, the difference narrows.
I'm also not convinced with the above argument that most armies will struggle to kill more than 3 Terminators a turn. I mean it sort of runs counter to "Stench Vats is an auto-include because there's a lot of assault units which can do a number on Terminators if they get to go first". (Which I was also initially a cynic of, but am increasingly be won over by.)
The problem is there are always specific counter units that can run againt conventional wisdom. Like that guy in the link I copied did the math. It takes 17 lascannon shots to kill 100 points worth of blightlords with plague surgeon support. Now, this is based on pure averages. Maybe the guy who brings lascannons is super lucky and kills a whole squad in one volley, but then he is not rolling averages. There are also specific weapons that WILL kill a squad of blightlords in one volley (hint mortal wound weapons). But the question is, do all lists have such weapons? Is it fair to say DG terminators are not resilient enough based on such a small subset of weapons? Its not.
The same goes for how DG terminators stack against melee units. Some melee units if they get the charge in, are ideally suited to killing DG terminators, because they rely on forcing a huge bucket load of 1 damage saves. Then, the DR doesn't help, and even the 4++ doesn't help, there is only the T5, and the 2+ to help. But again, these are a small subset of dedicated melee units. There are alot more which have high AP, and 2 damage. In which case, then the DR is extremely powerful because it halves their damage, and the 4++ is also very powerful, because it again halves any damage that comes through. And that's why people say stench vats is so important, because many of the melee units in the first category are not very resilient and would absolutely melt if you hit them first before they get to strike first from charging.
We are ultimately talking in a forum and in reality you will face different opponents using different lists. Even the terrain of the table you are playing on makes a big difference. If the table features very open terrain, then its a turkey shot and the terrain was probably ill set up. But if there are enough obscuring terrain, then it really will not be easy to take out more than 3 DG terminators per turn because if you utilise the terrain well enough, your opponent literally cannot bring that many guns to shoot at you. Like if you look at some of the videos on youtube, turn 1, competitive players sets up fully behind obscuring terrain. There are very few casualties on turn 1 because everything is hidden behind obscuring terrain and you have to move aggressively to get a shot off from the edges of the terrain.
So, by default, everything has to be discussed based on "general" circumstances. We can't factor in a list specifically tailored to take out say 8 terminators in one turn that gets to do it because there was zero obscuring terrain and both armies start out in plain view of each other and start blasting.
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Jidmah wrote: That matches my experience. If I have three squads of terminators, PM take a lot less heat then when I have Mortarion or a bunch of daemon engines on the table.
Yeah, have to take enough threat overload. Say you have squads of terminators, plus 30 PM all bearing down on the midboard, I don't believe there is an army in existance that can delete all of this in 2 turns. Maybe there is an army shooty enough to delete everything by turn 5, but maybe it can only do that by sacrificing all objectives to you and it would table you at the cost of losing the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 11:19:08
2021/02/24 12:47:44
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Yeah, have to take enough threat overload. Say you have squads of terminators, plus 30 PM all bearing down on the midboard, I don't believe there is an army in existance that can delete all of this in 2 turns. Maybe there is an army shooty enough to delete everything by turn 5, but maybe it can only do that by sacrificing all objectives to you and it would table you at the cost of losing the game.
100% got the point, still lot have to figure i believe, that matches are decided on objective, do you wanna try obliterate my army in 5 turns? That's fine with me, you will keep losing a match after another.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/24 12:47:55
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2021/02/24 16:29:13
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
Plague Marines are still competitive, i think a lot of the people being negative towards them is in response to people loading them for bear and spending upwards of 250pts on a squad based on their explosive damage and carry over wounds from cleaver and other big brain concepts.
I've found MSUPMs to be great just to let you be more places at once, important in a slow grinding army. I tend to take a flail and possibly a blight launcher in each squad, the rest are fine with bolters. 115pts for a unit with obsec, that's pretty tough, you don't mind advancing if you need it to get somewhere because you're not losing much from not shooting and even when whittled down to the final man can still do some work with the flail if you need him to charge an objective camper.
I have a question in regards to the Virulent Fever pathogen. On the surface, this looks to be an incredibly powerful tool in doling out mortal wounds. But I'm curious, does the rule mean that any unmodified role of six gives a mortal wound, or just one? For example, if I rolled four dice and got three sixes, would I get three mortal wounds from the pathogen or just one?
2021/02/24 18:37:10
Subject: Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
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2021/02/24 19:31:50
Subject: Re:Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
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2021/02/25 01:37:57
Subject: Re:Mortarion's sons Death Guard tactica 9th ed
, ask yourself why no one play that kind of loadout, play 
