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 Dolnikan wrote:
Which, incidentally, is why I would say that including them in the CSM list was a major mistake because there is no good way to balance cultists and basic chaos marines to each other so both are viable choices, and then making them externally balanced is even harder.

Sure there is. The problem with Cultists is that they have access to weapon upgrades and all the same stratagems as proper CSM, so they're capable of putting out non-negligible firepower, and that makes them direct competitors for role. You can load up on Cultists as your main troops because they can hold objectives and do damage; so there's nothing CSMs do that they don't.

Make them cheap meatshields that hold objectives but don't have access to force-multipliers like stratagems, and make CSM actually worth their price, and then you have a real choice- Cultists just to get bodies on the field, or CSMs to actually do damage.

As always this is a classic design space problem- there's not much for infantry to do in this game besides 'kill things', 'not die', and 'exist', so balancing similar units within a codex is difficult. At least in the case of CSM and Cultists, they can give CSM the first two and Cultists the third.

Uh nobody uses cultists to do damage, nor do they use CSM for that. The reason you see cultists instead of CSM is because they're both terrible at anything besides obsec so you may as well take 10 cheaper models than 5 more expensive ones.

Cultists are fine, the problem is that CSM are terribly useless junk.

Cultists ever having had access to Veterans of the Long War never made sense. Can't speak for the other Chaos SM strats, as I don't think I've got either copy of that book, but thematically that was a mis-step.

Who's going to use vets on cultists? I agree it makes little sense, but you're not going to waste your 1 vets a phase on the worst unit in your army except in extremely bizarre circumstances.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Who's going to use vets on cultists? I agree it makes little sense, but you're not going to waste your 1 vets a phase on the worst unit in your army except in extremely bizarre circumstances.

I mean, it was used a lot to wound T4 or 5, 6, and 7 things as well as or better than boltguns, and to wound T8+ things way better that boltguns ever would, for a cheaper points cost. Of course bolters would wound better with VOTLW as well, but aren't nearly as cheap (basically 3-1 advantage cultists until recently)

SemperMortis wrote:


2 BBs and 2 trukkz filled with boyz and ZERO upgrades is 868pts. So you have 2 T8 4+ models 2 T6 4+ models and 44 Boyz in 4 mobs. That isn't that much for almost half your army. Nor is it very durable vs most lists these days. If you wanted to run 3 and 3 its going to eat the majority of your army but it will at least be a bit more durable. But at that point you are out of Troop slots and that means your "reinforcements" are all 10 and 12 man squads which will get mulched in a game where you can have a 3 man unit of space marines unload 36+3D6 S4 shots a turn or another 5 man unit of space marines average 8 to 9 dmg a turn against the Battlewagons And none of that is with any rerolls, doctrines or Chapter buffs.

BWs and BBs are among the toughest models out there when under KFF. You can go Ard Case on a BW for 25 points less and bring 20.

Orks have tons of stuff to spread the table and keep Eradicators from all getting to the same target easily. They also have good flyers and great artillery to counter-battery threatening units. Taking under half the army for stuff that holds objectives well isn't a huge problem given how cheap a lot of the other stuff is.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


2 BBs and 2 trukkz filled with boyz and ZERO upgrades is 868pts. So you have 2 T8 4+ models 2 T6 4+ models and 44 Boyz in 4 mobs. That isn't that much for almost half your army. Nor is it very durable vs most lists these days. If you wanted to run 3 and 3 its going to eat the majority of your army but it will at least be a bit more durable. But at that point you are out of Troop slots and that means your "reinforcements" are all 10 and 12 man squads which will get mulched in a game where you can have a 3 man unit of space marines unload 36+3D6 S4 shots a turn or another 5 man unit of space marines average 8 to 9 dmg a turn against the Battlewagons And none of that is with any rerolls, doctrines or Chapter buffs.

BWs and BBs are among the toughest models out there when under KFF. You can go Ard Case on a BW for 25 points less and bring 20.

Orks have tons of stuff to spread the table and keep Eradicators from all getting to the same target easily. They also have good flyers and great artillery to counter-battery threatening units. Taking under half the army for stuff that holds objectives well isn't a huge problem given how cheap a lot of the other stuff is.

So 2 BWs not BBs with Ard Case and 2 Trukkz with 62 boyz and 2 Big Mekz with KFF, so again, no upgrades except Deff Rollas for the BWs to make them at least useful at something besides eating fire = 1086pts, so 914 left to fill out the rest of your army. I mean...at that point you are basically telling your opponent "Kill these trukkz easily from long range" then they can pick off the infantry. 2 battlewagons aren't intimidating and even at T9 with a 5++ they aren't going to last long, especially if your opponent has any kind of dedicated anti-vehicle CC elements.

I just don't see that as being overly competitive. Once the boyz actually hop out to hold the objective they are effectively dead because as mentioned before, SM's have a plethora of anti-infantry fire power readily available. It really depends I guess on what you do with the last 900pts you have left.

SemperMortis wrote:
So 2 BWs not BBs with Ard Case and 2 Trukkz with 62 boyz and 2 Big Mekz with KFF, so again, no upgrades except Deff Rollas for the BWs to make them at least useful at something besides eating fire = 1086pts, so 914 left to fill out the rest of your army. I mean...at that point you are basically telling your opponent "Kill these trukkz easily from long range" then they can pick off the infantry. 2 battlewagons aren't intimidating and even at T9 with a 5++ they aren't going to last long, especially if your opponent has any kind of dedicated anti-vehicle CC elements.

I just don't see that as being overly competitive. Once the boyz actually hop out to hold the objective they are effectively dead because as mentioned before, SM's have a plethora of anti-infantry fire power readily available. It really depends I guess on what you do with the last 900pts you have left.

I assume the rest of the list would be buggies and possibly a Burnabomba. In that case, if the enemy was ignoring them and shooting at your Trukks instead you'd be very happy.

SemperMortis wrote:

You can get a Company Commander for 35pts or a Platoon commander for 25. A CC can issue orders to 2 Guard squads a turn and the PC 1. Put that in perspective. a 35pt buff can DOUBLE your ROF for 2 squads of infantry. So 2 Squads of Guard plus a CC is 135pts and can put out 36 shots a turn or 75 (3 pistols) at double tap range.

I don't think i've ever faced a IG opponent who wasn't running at least a few CC or PCs. The only reason you would't bring them is because you are running Tank Commanders which isn't a mark against Guardsmen or CC/PCs as much as its a statement that IG have a better competitive option to buff tanks instead of infantry.

The only reason you wouldn't bring a CC or PC is if you're unfamiliar with how the army is organized.

Literally, Tempestor Primes cannot Order <Regiment> units. By that same vein, <Regiment> Officers cannot buff Tempestus units.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


BWs and BBs are among the toughest models out there when under KFF. You can go Ard Case on a BW for 25 points less and bring 20.

Orks have tons of stuff to spread the table and keep Eradicators from all getting to the same target easily. They also have good flyers and great artillery to counter-battery threatening units. Taking under half the army for stuff that holds objectives well isn't a huge problem given how cheap a lot of the other stuff is.

Well the T8 5++ forktress is a good upgrade but it costs 1CPs and it's allowed only on a single model. Giving 5++ to a battlewagon/bonebreaka with Deff rolla is very difficult considering the aura rule that forces the entire model to be under it, as the vehicle is pretty big; a solution is to embark a big mek with KFF in it but it isn't cheap and only works on that vehicle while he's embarked. The only mobile source of KFF is the Wazbom Blastajet.

That "tons of stuff" also eats up CPs and deatchment slots. Fielding two detachments for having more HS options and buffing vehicles with CPs can actually work but it starves an army that is extremely CPs dependant.

Cheap for orks is a thing of the past. The only real cheap units in the army are Deffkoptas, Mek, Smasha Gunz and Kommandos. Not all of them are competitive choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Blackie: I agree, I also don't see Guardsmen costing the same as Gretchin and neither think that Boyz deserve their current price tag. It's just that claiming Guardsmen would just "gut" Boyz as others wrote, argueing on the basis of them having 2-4 shots each as if that was their basic statline is... problematic.

Yeah, I just think that Guardsmen and Boyz are basically on par, that's why they should cost approx the same amount of points and I'm actually not opposed to Boyz being 8ppm. Gretchins are way weaker than Guardsmen and they should be significantly cheaper than them, and I wouldn't want 3ppm models either considering that points went up in 9th, but if Guardsmen go to 7,8, or 9ppm I could justify them being 5ppm. Or 6ppm cultists. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I'd consider an horde an army that has 3x or even 4x more models than that average SM army as the standard SM model is 3x or 4x more resilient than the average horde infantry dude.

So you're saying there are no horde armies? With Marines being roughly 15ppm and grots being 5 ppm, boys being around 8-10ppm, its kind of hard to reach that 4x threshhold when there aren't troops 1/4 the price of a SM troop.

I don't see many horde armies around yes. And that's too bad IMHO because I love playing against them. With orks I prefer something in between, with 90-120 models in total and not pure hordes of 200+ models but facing tons of enemies is more fun than facing 4-30 super buffed and unkillable ones.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I'd consider an horde an army that has 3x or even 4x more models than that average SM army as the standard SM model is 3x or 4x more resilient than the average horde infantry dude.

So you're saying there are no horde armies? With Marines being roughly 15ppm and grots being 5 ppm, boys being around 8-10ppm, its kind of hard to reach that 4x threshhold when there aren't troops 1/4 the price of a SM troop.

I don't see many horde armies around yes. And that's too bad IMHO because I love playing against them. With orks I prefer something in between, with 90-120 models in total and not pure hordes of 200+ models but facing tons of enemies is more fun than facing 4-30 super buffed and unkillable ones.

I don't think you quite understood my point. Demanding a 4:1 ratio to meet "horde status when the troops are a 3:1 ratio means your chosen 4:1 ratio could be improbable to impossible.

Do you really think so? A tipycal ork horde has 5 or 6 30 man squads of boyz, which are already 150-180 models, plus a few buffing characters. If they also have artillery, which matchs up footslogging lists very well, the list suddenly jumps to 200+ models considering that each mek gun is actually 6 models. Take 6 and that's 36 models for 240 points. A list with warboss, big mek/weirdboy, 6x30 boyz, 8 smasha gunz has 230 models and even reducing the troops to 5 squads in order to field more toys or supporting characters model count would still be over 200 bodies. Assuming that mek gunz and their crew count as a single model it's still 170-200 models. I've also played against 180+ tyranids in several games in older editions.

How many models has an average SM list? 50-60 at most it's my guess.

With 50-60 models armies it's far from being impossible to field armies with 3x or even 4x their model count. Note that many horde armies spam tons of troop models, while the elite oriented ones rely mostly on specialists, monsters and vehicles which are way more expensive than troops.

My point is that an army doesn't look like an horde if top of turn 2 there's the same number of models left than the elite army. Units from horde oriented army tend to die quickly and if they can't outnumber the elite army for the entire game they usually don't worth the effort and go elite or mechanized style themselves.

 Blackie wrote:
Do you really think so? A tipycal ork horde has 5 or 6 30 man squads of boyz, which are already 150-180 models, plus a few buffing characters. If they also have artillery, which matchs up footslogging lists very well, the list suddenly jumps to 200+ models considering that each mek gun is actually 6 models. Take 6 and that's 36 models for 240 points. A list with warboss, big mek/weirdboy, 6x30 boyz, 8 smasha gunz has 230 models and even reducing the troops to 5 squads in order to field more toys or supporting characters model count would still be over 200 bodies. Assuming that mek gunz and their crew count as a single model it's still 170-200 models. I've also played against 180+ tyranids in several games in older editions.

How many models has an average SM list? 50-60 at most it's my guess.

With 50-60 models armies it's far from being impossible to field armies with 3x or even 4x their model count. Note that many horde armies spam tons of troop models, while the elite oriented ones rely mostly on specialists, monsters and vehicles which are way more expensive than troops.

My point is that an army doesn't look like an horde if top of turn 2 there's the same number of models left than the elite army. Units from horde oriented army tend to die quickly and if they can't outnumber the elite army for the entire game they usually don't worth the effort and go elite or mechanized style themselves.

6 by 30 boys, Ghaz and a Weirdboy ( I figure Ghaz and a Weird Boy are roughly equivalent in cost to three buffing characters I wouldn't know how to make) are already 1650. 8 Mek Smashaguns gets you to almost 1875 (Rounding/Fudging for GW copyright) and 188(or 189) models - Mekgunz are Artillery, and the krew aren't really "models" with rules as the datasheet says (they have no stats, they can't get targetted etc) they're a fancy rules counter, not really a model much like the Armorium Cherubs etc. We still have to upgrade the Boss Nobs and 6 Power Klaws hits pretty close to 1950 for 190? 191? models compared to the 55-60 I usually average in my UM lists. You're barely 3x and not very close to 4x and have zero toys. My last list with 58 have Marneus, Tiggy, an Impulsor and a Redemptor. Of course the list I made before that was something like 16 models and nothing but toys as I made the Spear of Macragge with Chronus, a Techmarine, 2 Land Raiders (1 Crusader), 4(2 Dest 2Anhil) Predators, 4 (TLHB 2TLLC) Razorbacks, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Landspeeders. It may not even be legal any more whatever the new rules for dedicated transports may be. Compared to that, my 58 model list is a horde. For my 58 model list, to get at least 4X you need 232 models which means you need to average 8.62 points per model which means Boys mobs #7 and most of 8 plus two more HQ's. - Two Brigades 2 barebones warbosses, one bigmek with ShokkAttack, one Weirdboy, 7x30 boys, 2x4 Mekguns with Bubblechukkas is about 2200 (again rounding/fudging) and only (96+126) 222 models.

the_scotsman wrote:
If you don't want me to field 300 grots in an army, give grots better rules. Obviously I'm not expecting to win tournaments with 300 grots, 5 mek gunz, and 12 killa kanz, it's a fluff themed list that I run for fun. But it's frustrating to have to think "Hmm, maybe I should run these as Guard instead" because the rules are just THAT bad.

Like I'm sorry, but

Twice the range
twice the shots
+1WS
+2LD
+2Sv
+1T

REALLY should be worth SOMETHING.

If people are worried about MSU squads of them being too cheap, do AOS horde pricing - First 10 grots 5ppm, second 10 grots 3ppm, third 10 grots 2ppm. 100points for 30 vs 90pts for 30 in 8th, you pay 10% more for the better morale rule in 9th.

Utility is the key to solving such issues.
For example, you could just have gretchin get grot shields as a build-in rule. Suddenly they are worth more points despite being no more durable or killy.

 Jidmah wrote:


Utility is the key to solving such issues.
For example, you could just have gretchin get grot shields as a build-in rule. Suddenly they are worth more points despite being no more durable or killy.

They're really not tho. At some point they're going to be so expensive you might as well just bring more models from the unit you wanted to protect in the first place.

It's the same deal with a Tervigon and termagants. Yes a Tervigon can replace 10 models in a unit every turn for free. It is also 200+ points and will replenish less than 200 pts over the course of the game. She will also explode and kill nearby termagants 100% when she dies. So really just screw it and bring more termagants instead.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Utility is the key to solving such issues.
For example, you could just have gretchin get grot shields as a build-in rule. Suddenly they are worth more points despite being no more durable or killy.

They're really not tho. At some point they're going to be so expensive you might as well just bring more models from the unit you wanted to protect in the first place.

It's the same deal with a Tervigon and termagants. Yes a Tervigon can replace 10 models in a unit every turn for free. It is also 200+ points and will replenish less than 200 pts over the course of the game. She will also explode and kill nearby termagants 100% when she dies. So really just screw it and bring more termagants instead.

Nobody is saying Gretchin have to become 8 pts per model, but making Grot Shields a static ability or at least just a 0CP Stratagem would go a long ways towards making taking 40+ Gretchin viable again. At the same time you will not see 200+ Gretchin because they'll only be worth it in the numbers in which they are necessary to protect other models.Tervigons were good at the end of 8th, they featured in several top 4 GT lists IIRC. GW didn't want Gretchin to be under 5 pts because they were afraid of smaller boards getting flooded or something, well then they have to find rules that makes Gretchin worth bringing when they're 5 pts. Maybe they're already worth 5 pts, I don't understand why anyone takes them but they've already had several top placings at a GT which is baffling.

 vict0988 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Utility is the key to solving such issues.
For example, you could just have gretchin get grot shields as a build-in rule. Suddenly they are worth more points despite being no more durable or killy.

They're really not tho. At some point they're going to be so expensive you might as well just bring more models from the unit you wanted to protect in the first place.

It's the same deal with a Tervigon and termagants. Yes a Tervigon can replace 10 models in a unit every turn for free. It is also 200+ points and will replenish less than 200 pts over the course of the game. She will also explode and kill nearby termagants 100% when she dies. So really just screw it and bring more termagants instead.

Nobody is saying Gretchin have to become 8 pts per model, but making Grot Shields a static ability or at least just a 0CP Stratagem would go a long ways towards making taking 40+ Gretchin viable again. At the same time you will not see 200+ Gretchin because they'll only be worth it in the numbers in which they are necessary to protect other models.Tervigons were good at the end of 8th, they featured in several top 4 GT lists IIRC. GW didn't want Gretchin to be under 5 pts because they were afraid of smaller boards getting flooded or something, well then they have to find rules that makes Gretchin worth bringing when they're 5 pts. Maybe they're already worth 5 pts, I don't understand why anyone takes them but they've already had several top placings at a GT which is baffling.

Ye it was definitely the gretchins that made those top placements possible. The sheer power of them.

They were brought because they were 3ppm to protect other units and that was by already paying CP for a stratagem. Now they're 5ppm per wound prevented AND they still have to pay for the stratagem. No GW did not think this through, they just slapped a global 5ppm is the cheapest you can pay in this game and didn't look back again.

Also, sorry but Tervigons have not been good since 5th edition. I don't know what kind of tournaments Tervigons managed to win in late 8th edition but I will respectfully reserve my judgement being what it is.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
BWs and BBs are among the toughest models out there when under KFF. You can go Ard Case on a BW for 25 points less and bring 20.

Orks have tons of stuff to spread the table and keep Eradicators from all getting to the same target easily. They also have good flyers and great artillery to counter-battery threatening units. Taking under half the army for stuff that holds objectives well isn't a huge problem given how cheap a lot of the other stuff is.

This might come as a shock, but I agree with you.

Eradicators are still a very dangerous unit to orks, because it's not trivial to remove gravis units for us and they will be taking out quite a couple of buggies before they go down, easily earning back their points. You'll definitely will have to play around them.
It's also not like they are without weaknesses. Split fire doesn't make sense at all, so if a unit steps up and blows a buggy sky high, it will be in charge range of any buggies surrounding it, and I'll gladly stick any of the buggies to a unit of eradicators to prevent it from shooting for the rest of the game. Unlike aggressors, they don't come with any relevant melee abilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
They were brought because they were 3ppm to protect other units and that was by already paying CP for a stratagem.

That is not true though. They primarily were brought because they were troops and generated CP which were then used to super-charge lootas, SSAG or tank bustas. With two of those being nerfed into the ground, less starting CP and the change to detachments preventing people from "splashing" bad moons for just a single stratagem, there really is no reason to bring gretchin besides not wanting to spend CP for your detachment.
Right now trukks(!) are way more point efficient than gretchin, which is why start seeing trukk boyz as the troops unit of choice.

I think I agree with Jidmah on why they were brought, but of course, it's complicated, I think some people were bringing Gretchin without the Lootas even. The value of having an Infantry unit to hold an objective has gone up, I'm assuming the inclusion of Gretchin in some 9th Orks lists has to do with secondary objectives, it would be super interesting to hear from some of those players if they will continue including them and how they made themselves worth their pts. It's not like it's a huge investment, and I think at most they've wasted 40 pts in their army on Gretchin by taking 2x10, it's still a weird inclusion IMO.

Putting them at 4 pts was as safe as could be, it's already a heavy 33% nerf. They also put in several stop-gaps to stop hordes from being too good in 9th, the CP change and the introduction of blasts, so several big units of Gretchin will never be meta because they get countered too hard by blasts, masses of small units will never be meta because it costs CP. Even leaving them at 3 pts would not have led to Gretchin spam becoming meta. People might take a lot if they were playing Orks, but it wouldn't dominate anything. Compare that to the danger of lowering the cost of what was previously the best anti-vehicle in the game in the same edition that you are massively increasing the power of vehicles? We could very well have walked into a new Castellan meta.

8th edition tournament lists are not easy to find but I previously posted a list from GenghisCon where Matt Evans got 3rd Place using a Tervigon, I remembered posting about more, but it's really just a question of when the cost is low enough, is it at 180, 150 or 100? Whatever the case is, there is no reason why GW cannot find it.

Breton wrote:

6 by 30 boys, Ghaz and a Weirdboy ( I figure Ghaz and a Weird Boy are roughly equivalent in cost to three buffing characters I wouldn't know how to make) are already 1650.

Standard warboss is a legit option, and it only costs 83 points. No need to bring Ghaz to make a full horde work. An ork horde is more about board control than killyness.

Breton wrote:

8 Mek Smashaguns gets you to almost 1875 (Rounding/Fudging for GW copyright) and 188(or 189) models - Mekgunz are Artillery, and the krew aren't really "models" with rules as the datasheet says (they have no stats, they can't get targetted etc) they're a fancy rules counter, not really a model much like the Armorium Cherubs etc.

They're not "real models" in the terms that they're once piece with the mek gun. Still need to field those 5 bases with real models, unlike the Cherub. 8 Mek gunz have 40 grot gunners on the board, not on paper. The mek gun is basically a vehicle and 5 infantry models as a single unit.

Breton wrote:

We still have to upgrade the Boss Nobs and 6 Power Klaws hits pretty close to 1950 for 190? 191? models compared to the 55-60 I usually average in my UM lists. You're barely 3x and not very close to 4x and have zero toys. My last list with 58 have Marneus, Tiggy, an Impulsor and a Redemptor. Of course the list I made before that was something like 16 models and nothing but toys as I made the Spear of Macragge with Chronus, a Techmarine, 2 Land Raiders (1 Crusader), 4(2 Dest 2Anhil) Predators, 4 (TLHB 2TLLC) Razorbacks, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Landspeeders. It may not even be legal any more whatever the new rules for dedicated transports may be. Compared to that, my 58 model list is a horde. For my 58 model list, to get at least 4X you need 232 models which means you need to average 8.62 points per model which means Boys mobs #7 and most of 8 plus two more HQ's. - Two Brigades 2 barebones warbosses, one bigmek with ShokkAttack, one Weirdboy, 7x30 boys, 2x4 Mekguns with Bubblechukkas is about 2200 (again rounding/fudging) and only (96+126) 222 models.

The list I made was exactly 1978 points, and I've included killsaws for any nobz. Even counting mek gunz as single models, which actually aren't in terms of space occupied on the board, we're talking about 182 infantry models and 8 mek gunz. Which is already enough to be 3x and even 4x the model count on an average SM list. Note that I only conisdered the most expensive troop units, nothing prevents me from replacing 60 boyz with 100 gretchins putting the model count to 220 plus characters and artillery.

Also note that my example is a tipycal ork horde, not my personal one (I don't even play hordes), your examples consist in your specific SM lists instead. Most of the SM armies, especially those ones that are heavy on primaris (and they are the most common ones) have roughly 40 models in total including vehicles.

The ork list you propose is also not realistic, two warbosses are redundant, the SAG is overpriced at the moment, and no one plays Bubblechukkas, cheaper and more effective Smasha gunz are the way to go for this kind of lists. Ork hordes have no toys, just artillery because they provide firepower and they make anti tank weapons inefficient. They don't need toys to work, they're in fact a liability for an horde list. Some players even remove the artillery and bring nothing but infantry models like kommandos or more buffing characters like painboyz, big mek with KFF or a waaagh banner.


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 vict0988 wrote:
I think I agree with Jidmah on why they were brought, but of course, it's complicated, I think some people were bringing Gretchin without the Lootas even. The value of having an Infantry unit to hold an objective has gone up, I'm assuming the inclusion of Gretchin in some 9th Orks lists has to do with secondary objectives.

True, but one of the primary roles for gretchins in 8th was to provide CPs. Now they're useless for that purpose.

 vict0988 wrote:
I think I agree with Jidmah on why they were brought, but of course, it's complicated, I think some people were bringing Gretchin without the Lootas even. The value of having an Infantry unit to hold an objective has gone up, I'm assuming the inclusion of Gretchin in some 9th Orks lists has to do with secondary objectives, it would be super interesting to hear from some of those players if they will continue including them and how they made themselves worth their pts. It's not like it's a huge investment, and I think at most they've wasted 40 pts in their army on Gretchin by taking 2x10, it's still a weird inclusion IMO.

They suck at holding objectives though, especially with the objectives no longer being in cover and closer to the front lines, they are just a liability that can easily lose you multiple VP.
Most people (me included) bring gretchin because they are just the cheapest way to fill a battalion. While trukk boyz are hands down a better troops choice, you still pay an additional 100 point per unit - so it's really a competition between having useful troops or useless troops and a buggy or two more mek guns.

 Jidmah wrote:


That is not true though. They primarily were brought because they were troops and generated CP which were then used to super-charge lootas, SSAG or tank bustas. With two of those being nerfed into the ground, less starting CP and the change to detachments preventing people from "splashing" bad moons for just a single stratagem, there really is no reason to bring gretchin besides not wanting to spend CP for your detachment.
Right now trukks(!) are way more point efficient than gretchin, which is why start seeing trukk boyz as the troops unit of choice.

I'm not much of a fan of eradicators. Especially if they get capped at 3 like Eliminators. I'd rather 10 sniper scouts than 6 (2x3) Eliminators - Rather have 10 shots, 10 wounds than 6 shots 24 wounds. As for the Eradicators, I'd go with Landspeeders, or Attack Bikes if I want Melta running around. I'm guessing the Eradicators will be roughly Aggressor priced (3 models Power level 5, Gravis) with a small discount for the melta rifle instead of boltstorms estimating Eradicators somewhere around 35, Aggressors around 40, and Attack bikes around 50 with about double the wounds, double the shots, and double the move.

Breton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Do you really think so? A tipycal ork horde has 5 or 6 30 man squads of boyz, which are already 150-180 models, plus a few buffing characters. If they also have artillery, which matchs up footslogging lists very well, the list suddenly jumps to 200+ models considering that each mek gun is actually 6 models. Take 6 and that's 36 models for 240 points. A list with warboss, big mek/weirdboy, 6x30 boyz, 8 smasha gunz has 230 models and even reducing the troops to 5 squads in order to field more toys or supporting characters model count would still be over 200 bodies. Assuming that mek gunz and their crew count as a single model it's still 170-200 models. I've also played against 180+ tyranids in several games in older editions.

How many models has an average SM list? 50-60 at most it's my guess.

With 50-60 models armies it's far from being impossible to field armies with 3x or even 4x their model count. Note that many horde armies spam tons of troop models, while the elite oriented ones rely mostly on specialists, monsters and vehicles which are way more expensive than troops.

My point is that an army doesn't look like an horde if top of turn 2 there's the same number of models left than the elite army. Units from horde oriented army tend to die quickly and if they can't outnumber the elite army for the entire game they usually don't worth the effort and go elite or mechanized style themselves.

6 by 30 boys, Ghaz and a Weirdboy ( I figure Ghaz and a Weird Boy are roughly equivalent in cost to three buffing characters I wouldn't know how to make) are already 1650. 8 Mek Smashaguns gets you to almost 1875 (Rounding/Fudging for GW copyright) and 188(or 189) models - Mekgunz are Artillery, and the krew aren't really "models" with rules as the datasheet says (they have no stats, they can't get targetted etc) they're a fancy rules counter, not really a model much like the Armorium Cherubs etc. We still have to upgrade the Boss Nobs and 6 Power Klaws hits pretty close to 1950 for 190? 191? models compared to the 55-60 I usually average in my UM lists. You're barely 3x and not very close to 4x and have zero toys. My last list with 58 have Marneus, Tiggy, an Impulsor and a Redemptor. Of course the list I made before that was something like 16 models and nothing but toys as I made the Spear of Macragge with Chronus, a Techmarine, 2 Land Raiders (1 Crusader), 4(2 Dest 2Anhil) Predators, 4 (TLHB 2TLLC) Razorbacks, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Landspeeders. It may not even be legal any more whatever the new rules for dedicated transports may be. Compared to that, my 58 model list is a horde. For my 58 model list, to get at least 4X you need 232 models which means you need to average 8.62 points per model which means Boys mobs #7 and most of 8 plus two more HQ's. - Two Brigades 2 barebones warbosses, one bigmek with ShokkAttack, one Weirdboy, 7x30 boys, 2x4 Mekguns with Bubblechukkas is about 2200 (again rounding/fudging) and only (96+126) 222 models.

If I am taking a horde in 9th I will not be bringing Ghaz. And honestly I wouldn't be upgrading nobz or anyone else for that matter. Taking anything in a skew list that isn't part of the main aspect is a waste and gives your opponent something to use his heavy weapons on.

But here is the kicker the entire point of this thread is about the major hit to hordes. 4 years ago that same list was 360pts cheaper just from the boyz alone, and you were basically required to equip a PK but at the same time that PK could utterly destroy most vehicles in the game while the boyz acted as a gigantic meat shield for the nob with PK.

So hordes have become significantly more expensive and can inflict significantly less damage to vehicles now. And of course thats before we even mention the fact that they are now competing against SMs with twice as many wounds.

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:
( I figure Ghaz and a Weird Boy are roughly equivalent in cost to three buffing characters I wouldn't know how to make)

If I am taking a horde in 9th I will not be bringing Ghaz. And honestly I wouldn't be upgrading nobz or anyone else for that matter. Taking anything in a skew list that isn't part of the main aspect is a waste and gives your opponent something to use his heavy weapons on.

But here is the kicker the entire point of this thread is about the major hit to hordes. 4 years ago that same list was 360pts cheaper just from the boyz alone, and you were basically required to equip a PK but at the same time that PK could utterly destroy most vehicles in the game while the boyz acted as a gigantic meat shield for the nob with PK.

So hordes have become significantly more expensive and can inflict significantly less damage to vehicles now. And of course thats before we even mention the fact that they are now competing against SMs with twice as many wounds.

As mentioned Ghaz and a weird boy was just a placeholder for 2-3 buffing characters. Also as mentioned later, you end up needing 7x30 boys to get close to 4X, which means you need 2 brigades (can't use 1 batallion because of compulsory elites/FA) which means 4 characters and Ghas was replaced with 2 bare bones warbosses, 1 weird boy and 1 big mek with SA gun (cheapest two HQ's.

You're not putting Klaws or anything on the nob? Do you even get a nob? Do you give them the special shootas/etc?

My attempt to create the list being sort of given to me aside, the math going the other direction doesn't matter what list I make, it has to average 8.62 points per model to hit 4X (232) the middle (my 58 model list) of a average 55-60 model SM list so picking 3-4x minimum for a horde list probably felt right, but upon inspection ends up a skosh high. Now the list I was working with has Boys at less than 8ppm But to get that average you need more than 55 boys per warboss, and almost as many again per Big Mek or Weirdboy. Before upgrades and tools. So you need pretty roughly 4x30 boys per Warboss/2ndHQ Even when boys were 7ppm, that's 1680 points of boys.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Uh nobody uses cultists to do damage, nor do they use CSM for that. The reason you see cultists instead of CSM is because they're both terrible at anything besides obsec so you may as well take 10 cheaper models than 5 more expensive ones.

Cultists are fine, the problem is that CSM are terribly useless junk.

I had to chime in to agree with you. No one takes cultists to kill things.

Which just reiterates how badly priced the boyz are compared to the Marines. Also, i'd rather take mobs of Kommandos than a 7th mob of boyz.

Breton wrote:


As mentioned Ghaz and a weird boy was just a placeholder for 2-3 buffing characters. Also as mentioned later, you end up needing 7x30 boys to get close to 4X, which means you need 2 brigades (can't use 1 batallion because of compulsory elites/FA) which means 4 characters and Ghas was replaced with 2 bare bones warbosses, 1 weird boy and 1 big mek with SA gun (cheapest two HQ's.

You're not putting Klaws or anything on the nob? Do you even get a nob? Do you give them the special shootas/etc?

My attempt to create the list being sort of given to me aside, the math going the other direction doesn't matter what list I make, it has to average 8.62 points per model to hit 4X (232) the middle (my 58 model list) of a average 55-60 model SM list so picking 3-4x minimum for a horde list probably felt right, but upon inspection ends up a skosh high. Now the list I was working with has Boys at less than 8ppm But to get that average you need more than 55 boys per warboss, and almost as many again per Big Mek or Weirdboy. Before upgrades and tools. So you need pretty roughly 4x30 boys per Warboss/2ndHQ Even when boys were 7ppm, that's 1680 points of boys.

Still inaccurate, you're listbuilding orks as a tipycal SM player. You're also mistaken about deatchments and ignore the fact that YOUR specific SM list have more bodies than the tipycal ones.

So:

- There's no need of a brigade as a battallion is enough to bring 6 troops, which are 180 bodies and 1500 points at their most expensive loadout (all boyz, nobz with killsaws)

- There's no need to give weapons to nobz; as I said before hordes are about board control so keeping units as cheap as possible in order to field more stuff is a legit option. In such lists nobz (which are a free upgrade for boyz) are perfectly ok even with their 0 points stock loadout.

- There's no need of Ghaz or thousands of HQs. The battallion already provides three slots which are enough. 3 HQs without Ghaz cost just 230 points. Some possible buffing characters are elites.

- If you need a 4th, a 5th HQ or additional troops just add a patrol. No need to bring expensive tax units to fill up brigades.

- Hordes have lots of cheap troops, a tipycal SM list have way more specialists. Specialists cost way more points than troops. Outriders, Agrressors, Eradicators, etc all cost 4x or more than boyz.

- 200 bodies (say 180 troops, 2 HQs, 8 mek gunz, 10 kommandos) in total are exactly 4x against an army that has 50 bodies. Many SM lists have like 40, so a tipycal horde will be even 5x against many common SM lists. 3x is extremely easy to achieve even against your specific 58 man list.


My point is that a full horde oriented ork list was common and legit in older editions, now it's very unlikely to see one as this edition doesn't favor them. Same for tyranids and other armies that used to have the option of going full horde.

 Blackie wrote:

Breton wrote:


As mentioned Ghaz and a weird boy was just a placeholder for 2-3 buffing characters. Also as mentioned later, you end up needing 7x30 boys to get close to 4X, which means you need 2 brigades (can't use 1 batallion because of compulsory elites/FA) which means 4 characters and Ghas was replaced with 2 bare bones warbosses, 1 weird boy and 1 big mek with SA gun (cheapest two HQ's.

You're not putting Klaws or anything on the nob? Do you even get a nob? Do you give them the special shootas/etc?

My attempt to create the list being sort of given to me aside, the math going the other direction doesn't matter what list I make, it has to average 8.62 points per model to hit 4X (232) the middle (my 58 model list) of a average 55-60 model SM list so picking 3-4x minimum for a horde list probably felt right, but upon inspection ends up a skosh high. Now the list I was working with has Boys at less than 8ppm But to get that average you need more than 55 boys per warboss, and almost as many again per Big Mek or Weirdboy. Before upgrades and tools. So you need pretty roughly 4x30 boys per Warboss/2ndHQ Even when boys were 7ppm, that's 1680 points of boys.

Still inaccurate, you're listbuilding orks as a tipycal SM player. You're also mistaken about deatchments and ignore the fact that YOUR specific SM list have more bodies than the tipycal ones.

So:

- There's no need of a brigade as a battallion is enough to bring 6 troops, which are 180 bodies and 1500 points at their most expensive loadout (all boyz, nobz with killsaws)

- There's no need to give weapons to nobz; as I said before hordes are about board control so keeping units as cheap as possible in order to field more stuff is a legit option. In such lists nobz (which are a free upgrade for boyz) are perfectly ok even with their 0 points stock loadout.

- There's no need of Ghaz or thousands of HQs. The battallion already provides three slots which are enough. 3 HQs without Ghaz cost just 230 points. Some possible buffing characters are elites.

- If you need a 4th, a 5th HQ or additional troops just add a patrol. No need to bring expensive tax units to fill up brigades.

- Hordes have lots of cheap troops, a tipycal SM list have way more specialists. Specialists cost way more points than troops. Outriders, Agrressors, Eradicators, etc all cost 4x or more than boyz.

- 200 bodies (say 180 troops, 2 HQs, 8 mek gunz, 10 kommandos) in total are exactly 4x against an army that has 50 bodies. Many SM lists have like 40, so a tipycal horde will be even 5x against many common SM lists. 3x is extremely easy to achieve even against your specific 58 man list.


My point is that a full horde oriented ork list was common and legit in older editions, now it's very unlikely to see one as this edition doesn't favor them. Same for tyranids and other armies that used to have the option of going full horde.

Wait... my list of 58 bodies was more than the range of 50-60 bodies you estimated for an average SM list?

 Blackie wrote:

How many models has an average SM list? 50-60 at most it's my guess.

 Blackie wrote:

Most of the SM armies, especially those ones that are heavy on primaris (and they are the most common ones) have roughly 40 models in total including vehicles.

15 of the 58 bodies in my list don't have a PRIMARIS keyword. Maybe 17, I'm not sure about the Impulsor or the Redemptor vehicles.
58x4=232. 2000/232=8.62 points per model. Your 6x30 at the old points per model with no upgrades is 1260 add your smashaguns? in your list 1524 188 models. You have 476 points for 44 models. you have 10.81 points per model to get 44 bodies on the board. You still can't get Stormboys with what you have left, but you could do Kommandos. Do horde armys usually have 42 Kommandos?

I did mispeak though, I switched the Mekguns to Smashaguns not Bubblechukkas, I had that inverted so the points totals I was using included Smashaguns not Bubblechukkas.
Only Kommandos will come in at under 8.

your examples consist in your specific SM lists instead

a list I made before this discussion to make sure it was typical and well within your guess of a typical SM list. Well, your original estimation.

My point is that a full horde oriented ork list was common and legit in older editions

And my point is your 4X model count doesn't figure like it's based on a whole lot of evidence just what "felt" right, much like the average SM list going from 50-60 to now 40 while we're doing the math.

With the old prices, using your own starting point of 6x30 boys, 8 Mekguns, and 2-3 buffing characters you're not getting to 4x your own estimated range.

If we're going to talk about the "hit" to horde armies, I just think we need to make sure what we remember is what was possible.

Edit to fix bad math on 299 vs 349, must have fumble fingered the calculator.

Well most of the SM armies around are primaris only or primaris mostly with 40-50 models in total. Yours, with almost 60, is not the average SM army With the word "average" I meant common.

SW lists I regularly play don't have more than 40-45 models in total (2-3 HQs, 5-6 vehicles, 5-10 wulfen, 20-25 power armour dudes) and there isn't a single primaris in them. "Just" 160-180 models are enough to be 4x the model count of many common elite armies, including SM ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


58x4=232. 2000/232=8.62 points per model. Your 6x30 at the old points per model with no upgrades is 1260 add your smashaguns? in your list 1524 188 models. You have 476 points for 44 models. you have 10.81 points per model to get 44 bodies on the board. You still can't get Stormboys with what you have left, but you could do Kommandos. Do horde armys usually have 42 Kommandos?

Yeah, maybe. Tipycal competitive horde oriented ork lists have boyz, gretchins, mek gunz, characters and eventually stormboyz, kommandos and deffkoptas. Maybe deepstriking Meganobz, but not before 8th. I've seen many tournament lists with 30-45 kommandos. They match very well with Da Jumping boyz.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
The most charitable interpretation I have presumes in playtesting sessions, people were able to stand on objectives unopposed by bringing 300 cultists or grots or Daemonettes or whatever and while yes, not the most killy, it may have been impossible to wipe out and score objectives in 5 turns against that many bodies sitting in defensive buff auras absent things like the Blast rules.

If this was not the case, even then I don't really believe that this is some underhanded and brilliant Just as Planned to sell models; I'm far more inclined to go with Hanlon's Razor on this one, e.g. there are rules writers not talking to one another who couldn't find their arses with 8 hands and an auspex.

People laughed at me when I theorized exactly this. It was 360 grots a couple HQ's and I think some planes just to blow extra points. It was pretty much nothing but bare bones HQ's and Grots. Then I wondered how many shots an average army would need per turn to dislodge the grots off an objective. Even if I never killed a thing - but even 360 grots will kill SOMETHING - the number of shots an opposing army needed to make every turn was amazing. SM needed 60 wounds, which needed 90 hits which needed 135 shots per turn to kill all the grots in 6 turns. 135 shots per turn is almost 70 Intercessors doubletapping every time. Of course they only need to kill off the objectives they couldn't contest with ObSec so they needed actually needed less than that but not much. High ROF stuff was scary like a Heavy Onslaught Gatling cannon, but that was solved by charging the Redemptor. It doesn't get 12 CC attacks per turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Well most of the SM armies around are primaris only or primaris mostly with 40-50 models in total. Yours, with almost 60, is not the average SM army With the word "average" I meant common.

SW lists I regularly play don't have more than 40-45 models in total (2-3 HQs, 5-6 vehicles, 5-10 wulfen, 20-25 power armour dudes) and there isn't a single primaris in them. "Just" 160-180 models are enough to be 4x the model count of many common elite armies, including SM ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


58x4=232. 2000/232=8.62 points per model. Your 6x30 at the old points per model with no upgrades is 1260 add your smashaguns? in your list 1524 188 models. You have 476 points for 44 models. you have 10.81 points per model to get 44 bodies on the board. You still can't get Stormboys with what you have left, but you could do Kommandos. Do horde armys usually have 42 Kommandos?

Yeah, maybe. Tipycal competitive horde oriented ork lists have boyz, gretchins, mek gunz, characters and eventually stormboyz, kommandos and deffkoptas. Maybe deepstriking Meganobz, but not before 8th. I've seen many tournament lists with 30-45 kommandos. They match very well with Da Jumping boyz.

Again I quote:

 Blackie wrote:

How many models has an average SM list? 50-60 at most it's my guess.

You think with 180 boyz you have room for Grots (troops), Defkoptas(expensive), and Meganobs(Expensive)? Didn't we just do this math? You know it's ok to just say maybe 4X was too extreme to use as a dividing line for hordes and 2.5+ is probably a more accurate ratio?