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10 Aggressors 450 pts 190 S4 AP-1 shots T2. 164 dead Gretchin with Chapter Master and Lieutenant. Assuming the Gretchin get 5++ 6+++ it's 91 dead Gretchin (my Aggressor investment returned in one turn). Repeat T3 and the Gretchin are gone.

Aggressors get a 5++ from a relic and another relic heals them for flat 3 wounds or brings them back with 3 wounds on a 2+ if a model is dead and no models are wounded. When my Aggressors die they have a 50% chance of firing 6 shots before dying. But those are just support elements that make them difficult to deal with, but this just shows that there are lists that can deal with 200+ models.

9 Eradicators will destroy 3 vehicles per turn with a cost of 100 pts per model on average and Aggressors punch vehicles good. What else I would put in the list I am not 100% on, but those 10 Aggressors and 9 Eradicators with the support I mentioned can be an army on their own. The games in 8th I lost with it was against defensive armies, but if you try to flood the board you'll be taken off the board by some lists.

If spamming Gretchin was amazing we would be seeing a few AM lists doing the same by now since they do it better. Even if you had to take 3 Battalions and go -6 on CP for it, most AM Strats are garbo and they've had most of their good outlets taken away by the specialist detachment ban.

 Billagio wrote:
Did you forget that you can charge?

Nope, did you forget they get less effective not more in close combat?

Breton wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Did you forget that you can charge?

Nope, did you forget they get less effective not more in close combat?

You can shoot and assault in the same turn. If the opponent doesn't fall back you can deal damage to them in their turn, unlike shooting. If they DO fall back you can shoot and assault them again.

Intercessor Shooting Grot: 2x.666x.83=1.1 wounds
Intercessor charging Grot 3x.666x.83=1.6 wounds

So each Intercessor on their own can kill 2.7 per Marine turn, and 1.1 per Grot turn if they stick the combat.

Breton wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Did you forget that you can charge?

Nope, did you forget they get less effective not more in close combat?

10 intercessors rapid firing into grots kills 11 on average in tactical doctrine. On the charge, once again in the tactical doctrine, they kill 14. If you shoot then charge that's 25 dead, you now outnumber them, the objective is yours. This is why 6×30 squads of grots isn't taking over the meta from Loyalist Dogs.

 vict0988 wrote:
10 Aggressors 450 pts 190 S4 AP-1 shots T2. 164 dead Gretchin with Chapter Master and Lieutenant. Assuming the Gretchin get 5++ 6+++ it's 91 dead Gretchin (my Aggressor investment returned in one turn). Repeat T3 and the Gretchin are gone.

Aggressors get a 5++ from a relic and another relic heals them for flat 3 wounds or brings them back with 3 wounds on a 2+ if a model is dead and no models are wounded. When my Aggressors die they have a 50% chance of firing 6 shots before dying. But those are just support elements that make them difficult to deal with, but this just shows that there are lists that can deal with 200+ models.

9 Eradicators will destroy 3 vehicles per turn with a cost of 100 pts per model on average and Aggressors punch vehicles good. What else I would put in the list I am not 100% on, but those 10 Aggressors and 9 Eradicators with the support I mentioned can be an army on their own. The games in 8th I lost with it was against defensive armies, but if you try to flood the board you'll be taken off the board by some lists.

If spamming Gretchin was amazing we would be seeing a few AM lists doing the same by now since they do it better. Even if you had to take 3 Battalions and go -6 on CP for it, most AM Strats are garbo and they've had most of their good outlets taken away by the specialist detachment ban.

You can't afford 10 aggressors after 60 tacs and 30 assaults. You're definitely not affording 9 eradicators after 60 tacs, 30 assaults, and 10 aggressors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Did you forget that you can charge?

Nope, did you forget they get less effective not more in close combat?

10 intercessors rapid firing into grots kills 11 on average in tactical doctrine. On the charge, once again in the tactical doctrine, they kill 14. If you shoot then charge that's 25 dead, you now outnumber them, the objective is yours. This is why 6×30 squads of grots isn't taking over the meta from Loyalist Dogs.

Congrats, you got yourself 1 objective, they have the other three? Did you do the strike back from the other 60 Grots to see if you really do still outnumber them, which of course you don't because there are 60 more grots.

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Did you forget that you can charge?

Nope, did you forget they get less effective not more in close combat?

10 intercessors rapid firing into grots kills 11 on average in tactical doctrine. On the charge, once again in the tactical doctrine, they kill 14. If you shoot then charge that's 25 dead, you now outnumber them, the objective is yours. This is why 6×30 squads of grots isn't taking over the meta from Loyalist Dogs.

Congrats, you got yourself 1 objective, they have the other three? Did you do the strike back from the other 60 Grots to see if you really do still outnumber them, which of course you don't because there are 60 more grots.

So you're parking 3 30 man grot squads on each objective? Obviously you use three 10 man squads against each grot blob, with each shooting/charging its own blob to avoid wasting shots/attacks. That leaves 15 grots hitting back, killing .278 intercessors. On the next turn the grots will be gone. This is assuming you don't use "Boltstorm" or "Rapid Fire" to kill even more grots more quickly. You still have 1400 points of army left to deal with the other grots.

Again, if this idea is so good why don't we see these armies of grots dominating the meta?

That was the example? Are you arguing against something you didn't read closely enough?

As someone already pointed out Hordes were about board control, all I did was reduce it to the extreme. 12x30 grots is extreme. But that's why marines moved to max bodies instead of splurging on the bells and whistles, the Horde meta caused the adaptation/counter in Marine meta horde meta players are complaining about.

12 10 man Intercessors to counter 12x30. 120 basic marine bodies. In reply to the reply to someone complaining about 60 Tactical and 30 Assaults - AKA 90 basic Marine Bodies.

By the way, 12 10 man Intercessors is about 2400 points.

Edit: Corrected Skimping to splurging.

I never said anything about 12×10 squads of intercessors, I said 3×10 + the other 1400 points of your army. And I wasn't replying to the entire thread, I was replying to your claim that loyalist marines were less effective in cc than when shooting, which they aren't.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I never said anything about 12×10 squads of intercessors, I said 3×10 + the other 1400 points of your army. And I wasn't replying to the entire thread, I was replying to your claim that loyalist marines were less effective in cc than when shooting, which they aren't.

You never said what?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Obviously you use three 10 man squads against each grot blob

Hell the whole quote is

So you're parking 3 30 man grot squads on each objective? Obviously you use three 10 man squads against each grot blob, with each shooting/charging its own blob to avoid wasting shots/attacks. That leaves 15 grots hitting back, killing .278 intercessors. On the next turn the grots will be gone. This is assuming you don't use "Boltstorm" or "Rapid Fire" to kill even more grots more quickly. You still have 1400 points of army left to deal with the other grots.

Even after you've been told there are 3x30 on each objective i.e. 12x30 grots, i.e. 4 blobs, i.e. requiring 3x10 Intercessors per blob/objective for a grand total of 12x10 Intercessors. Do I need to add emphasis to your quote? Are you still not reading closely enough to understand what you're arguing against?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, for those doing the math, 90 grots shooting 10 Intercessors/Tacs do just over 8 wounds after armor saves.

Breton wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

If you use costs of Intercessors and Vanguard Vets that's 1770 instead of 1440 for 180 Ork boyz no Grots.

Now compare the armor saves and the difference will essentially be nothing.

Now compare the ROF.

Now compare the bubble buffs.

Now compare your 30ish points of 6 grots with 6 wounds win ObSec against my 100 or so points of 5 Intercessors with 10 wounds.

K, Grotz get....FNP if their unit is close enough to a painboy. They can get a 5++ invuln from shooting but only if the entire unit is within 6' of a KFF Big Mek. SM's can get rerolls to hit, wounds, a FNP save and a model that can bring back the dead. As far as ROF, Lets use 100pts as a marker.

100pts of Grotz is 20 Models now (Thanks GW for nothing). That is 20 S3 shots at 12' range hitting on 4s. Intercessors that is 5 models so 5 (10) shots at S4 -1AP hitting on 3s at 30' range, or you could just get them auto bolt rifles and lose the -1ap, 6' range and gain 3 shots. Regardless, turn 1 intercessors don't move and get 10 shots, grotz get nothing. Turn 2 Intercessors get another 10 shots, grots are down to like 9 models or so (if they passed morale each turn) and get 9 shots, 4.5 hits and average... 0.5 dmg. Turn 3 intercessors shoot and then bum rush whatever is left and win. So 100pts of intercessors with their 10 T4 wounds and 3+ saves and 2.5x longer range, stronger rifles are better and win against those grotz on a 1 for 1 comparison.

And if the argument is about board control, those same Marines could walk forward and unload on the grots and then charge them which is actually safer for them because the grots are WS5+ and S2 in CC so they would hit half 33% less than wound 50% less. And in CC those Intercessors get 2 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s and the sergeant gets 4. Plus they also are armed with pistols as well. Basically there isn't an argument to be made that a 5man intercessor squad can't hold their own against a similar pts amount of grotz, yeah the grots might take the objective turn 1, but that is it.

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I never said anything about 12×10 squads of intercessors, I said 3×10 + the other 1400 points of your army. And I wasn't replying to the entire thread, I was replying to your claim that loyalist marines were less effective in cc than when shooting, which they aren't.

You never said what?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Obviously you use three 10 man squads against each grot blob

Hell the whole quote is

So you're parking 3 30 man grot squads on each objective? Obviously you use three 10 man squads against each grot blob, with each shooting/charging its own blob to avoid wasting shots/attacks. That leaves 15 grots hitting back, killing .278 intercessors. On the next turn the grots will be gone. This is assuming you don't use "Boltstorm" or "Rapid Fire" to kill even more grots more quickly. You still have 1400 points of army left to deal with the other grots.

Even after you've been told there are 3x30 on each objective i.e. 12x30 grots, i.e. 4 blobs, i.e. requiring 3x10 Intercessors per blob/objective for a grand total of 12x10 Intercessors. Do I need to add emphasis to your quote? Are you still not reading closely enough to understand what you're arguing against?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, for those doing the math, 90 grots shooting 10 Intercessors/Tacs do just over 8 wounds after armor saves.

3 10 man squads into one 3×30 blob of grots. That's 600 points, thus why I said you'd have 1400 points left to deal with the rest. But I fear we're getting into the territory where you'll start arguing whether lascannons is plural or not. I'll just wait to see all these grot armies owning loyalist marines. And you only have to take three objectives, the grots can keep the other one.

Edit: Ok I screwed up and typed "each" instead of "one", you got me there.

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

If you use costs of Intercessors and Vanguard Vets that's 1770 instead of 1440 for 180 Ork boyz no Grots.

Now compare the armor saves and the difference will essentially be nothing.

Now compare the ROF.

Now compare the bubble buffs.

Now compare your 30ish points of 6 grots with 6 wounds win ObSec against my 100 or so points of 5 Intercessors with 10 wounds.

K, Grotz get....FNP if their unit is close enough to a painboy. They can get a 5++ invuln from shooting but only if the entire unit is within 6' of a KFF Big Mek. SM's can get rerolls to hit, wounds, a FNP save and a model that can bring back the dead. As far as ROF, Lets use 100pts as a marker.

100pts of Grotz is 20 Models now (Thanks GW for nothing). That is 20 S3 shots at 12' range hitting on 4s. Intercessors that is 5 models so 5 (10) shots at S4 -1AP hitting on 3s at 30' range, or you could just get them auto bolt rifles and lose the -1ap, 6' range and gain 3 shots. Regardless, turn 1 intercessors don't move and get 10 shots, grotz get nothing. Turn 2 Intercessors get another 10 shots, grots are down to like 9 models or so (if they passed morale each turn) and get 9 shots, 4.5 hits and average... 0.5 dmg. Turn 3 intercessors shoot and then bum rush whatever is left and win. So 100pts of intercessors with their 10 T4 wounds and 3+ saves and 2.5x longer range, stronger rifles are better and win against those grotz on a 1 for 1 comparison.

And if the argument is about board control, those same Marines could walk forward and unload on the grots and then charge them which is actually safer for them because the grots are WS5+ and S2 in CC so they would hit half 33% less than wound 50% less. And in CC those Intercessors get 2 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s and the sergeant gets 4. Plus they also are armed with pistols as well. Basically there isn't an argument to be made that a 5man intercessor squad can't hold their own against a similar pts amount of grotz, yeah the grots might take the objective turn 1, but that is it.

I didn't quite mean it literally, it was just a commentary that the arguments would go back and forth forever, but that's some interesting points so I'm glad you did take it literally.

As another point being made by this extreme. Remember this is at the new points. 1800 or so points for 360 grots. The previous Gretchin price allowed you to do SIXTEEN x30 Grots or 480 for 1440. That's 120 grots per objective in a four objective game. There's was probaboly a point there where you could have taken more grots than SM players had shots in a 5 turn game.

Even at 3ppm grotz didn't stand a chance against things like aggressor squads. 135pts put out 18 shots and 3D6 (or 18 more shots in 9th) a turn, twice if they don't move so 72 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. assuming no rerolls auras are nearby that is 33 dead grotz in 1 turn. So Turn 1 a 135pt squad made back 99pts. If you split that between every squad in range its even more because grots are LD4 so kill 4 and they are almost guaranteed to lose 1+ 1/6th of what is left. Yeah, at no point are Marines ever going to struggle removing hordes.

Lol @ breton, have you ever actually played an horde army?
Because i'd really like you to try to squeeze 90 25 mm Slota bases on a objective.

SemperMortis wrote:
Even at 3ppm grotz didn't stand a chance against things like aggressor squads. 135pts put out 18 shots and 3D6 (or 18 more shots in 9th) a turn, twice if they don't move so 72 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. assuming no rerolls auras are nearby that is 33 dead grotz in 1 turn. So Turn 1 a 135pt squad made back 99pts. If you split that between every squad in range its even more because grots are LD4 so kill 4 and they are almost guaranteed to lose 1+ 1/6th of what is left. Yeah, at no point are Marines ever going to struggle removing hordes.

The exception proving the rule still ends up proving the rule. If you take stuff added to Marines to help them deal with hordes because hordes were fielding more models than marines could shoot at, hordes took that hit. Or something.

And 90 grots does 8 wounds to those Aggressors too. You've got an Aggressor Sgt with 2 wounds left. 120 at the old price does all 10. Your aggressors are dead. And the Grots are still sitting on the objective scoring points. Remember? Hordes are about board control. Board control is often about how long it takes you to get where you want to go.

Take Divide and Conquer. The Grots will get at least 3 out of the four, the close A, and both B's by virture of being 90-120 ObSec Models on each objective. Ridiculously more if they're willing to ignore one objective for you to take. That's 15+2= 17 VP per turn starting on Turn 2. If they take Both A's instead of a B that's 15+4 VP per turn. Assuming you get one A, you get 5VP. They're scoring 12-14 VP per turn more than you do before other secondaries. How many turns can you let that happen while you're trying to get clear them off an objective? Can't score of Turn 1, so If it takes you 2 turns to get one objective so you finally have one, or it's even at 2-2 by the end of Turn 3, you have 0-10 VP, the Grots have 24-28, On turn 4, you're going to get 5, they're going to get 5. You have 5-15, they have what, 29-32?

And yet, in real games, 30 gretchin simply disappear without much effort while 5 intercessors require allocating some serious firepower and/or cp to remove.

You also haven't considered the issues of 90 models in two units having a range of 12" in shooting and the 1/2" rule for melee. So while your math checks out, your application of the theory to the actual game doesn't.

His exemple is worthless to Beginn with lacking basic logical consistency in regards to the baseline Logistics off throwing 90 25 mm bases on any objective.

And yes i would know because i did a testrun at the time against the ih supplement with 400 Model morale immune blob army to See how busted it was...



Edit: god autocorrect is annoying.

Not Online!!! wrote:
His exemple is worthless to Beginn with lacking basic logical consistency in regards to the baseline Logistics off throwing 90 25 mm bases on any objective.

And yes i would know because i did a testrun at the time against the ih supplement with 400 Model morale immune blob army to See how busted it was...

You don't need to go all out like that to test this. I had a two test games where I tried flinging 30 gretchin models onto objectives with da jump. Afterwards I've understood why people started bringing units of 5 kommandoz - they do same job, just much better. Mathhammer is just completely blind to 3D interactions on the board.

Edit: god autocorrect is annoying.

I know, right? Especially if the device is insisting on applying German auto-correct to an English text.

1. Its unclear how the grots get up the table to jump on all the objectives.
2. If a mob gets Jumped great. Shoot the ones further away, and then mass charge your own army into the advance grots to get them up the table.
3. Casually kill 80-100 odd grots a turn, while also charging remnants to get on to objectives or just generally across the board.
4. By the end of turn 3 the grots have done nearly nothing (due to a pitiful melee attack and 12" S3 AP- shooting.) while you should be sitting on more objectives and have maxed out thin their ranks.
5. Continue mop up, probably max out your primary on turn 5, possibly max out assassinate if they've bought a range of characters and whatever your last secondary is.

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
His exemple is worthless to Beginn with lacking basic logical consistency in regards to the baseline Logistics off throwing 90 25 mm bases on any objective.

And yes i would know because i did a testrun at the time against the ih supplement with 400 Model morale immune blob army to See how busted it was...

You don't need to go all out like that to test this. I had a two test games where I tried flinging 30 gretchin models onto objectives with da jump. Afterwards I've understood why people started bringing units of 5 kommandoz - they do same job, just much better. Mathhammer is just completely blind to 3D interactions on the board.

Well the list at the time was to test just how balls to the walls the IH supplement was...
And i therefore literally designed it to be as durably annoying to play against as possible to see if it even stood a chance, not to mention we earlier tested that monstrosity against other lists at the time, including guard, nids and tau...

Edit: god autocorrect is annoying.

I know, right? Especially if the device is insisting on applying German auto-correct to an English text.

tell me about it , even better when you want to write in swiss german to a mate , and you suddendly have a lot of inapropriate words AC in

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ breton, have you ever actually played an horde army?
Because i'd really like you to try to squeeze 90 25 mm Slota bases on a objective.

Do you think they all have to be on there at the same time? Or do you think they could fill in as casualties occur? Lest we forget this is the extreme example that counters the equally extreme example of 60 Tacs and 30 Assault Marines. I understood that to be a concept army not a real one. I didn't mock the person suggesting noone would take 30 assault marines because I understood it was exactly that, a concept, a template, a place holder, whatever you want to call a generic idea of the thing, not the actual Everyone Takes Exactly This Thing.

 Jidmah wrote:
And yet, in real games, 30 gretchin simply disappear without much effort while 5 intercessors require allocating some serious firepower and/or cp to remove.

You also haven't considered the issues of 90 models in two units having a range of 12" in shooting and the 1/2" rule for melee. So while your math checks out, your application of the theory to the actual game doesn't.

We're not talking about real games if we're talking 60 Tacs and 30 Assaults. We're talking about the concept(s). I mean nobody is pointing out all 2,000 points of Marines won't be in range of all 1400 points of grots every turn either, or that assault marines lose in close combat to intercessors on about turn 8 or 9 (This may change with Angels of Death -I don't remember if I did this before or after that change) so nobody's taking 30 Assaults. This is rough proof of concept math, not gaming out the entire hypothetical game. You haven't seen me game out how much damage 480 grots do even with their 12" range because its primary to nor even a secondary part of the concept. I'll even point out in a game with no objectives just 100% kill em all, this concept goes down in flames. In some sort of a line breaker scenario, I'm slow, but I have more than double your units. And I still don't care if I shoot you. I'm going to run all turn every turn. You can have half of them, I'll still drag half or so of my army across the table while you're trying to catch up after getting bogged down.

Not Online!!! wrote:


1. Its unclear how the grots get up the table to jump on all the objectives.

I did say the second A is pretty unlikely and could/would be uncontested, the first A is only 4 inches away, the two B's are 12". You did remind me I was doing the timing wrong. You won't likely score on turn 2 either because it's on the command phase. B Objectives are likely to controlled on 2, score on 3. One more lost turn for scoring. If you jump on them with the Assaults, it just makes it easier for me, I'll shoot you up, and charge a the leftover 2ish Assaults. I'll have Obsec, and I'll have more models. I don't care if you get two shots per turn with a bolter, or two whacks with a chainsword. I'll just sit over there tweeting on my iphone until you tell me how many grots to remove. How many times have I done any math on what the Grots do in return? 1 time when someone wanted to drag along Aggressors? Whatever damage the Grots do is just frosting on the cake. I don't care if you kill 90 a turn in shooting or in close combat. Makes no difference, they're scoring by standing where they are, not killing you back. I'm playing Horde, the only thing I care about is flooding ObSec, and slowing your damage.

2. If a mob gets Jumped great. Shoot the ones further away, and then mass charge your own army into the advance grots to get them up the table.
3. Casually kill 80-100 odd grots a turn, while also charging remnants to get on to objectives or just generally across the board.

Already did the math, a SM army that averages 10 points per shot, 2000 points is 200 shots, hitting 67%(134), wounding 67%,(89.78) 0% saves - you get 90(89.78) grot casualties per turn. From the entire army. 16x30 grots is 480 grots. 5x90 casaulties is 450. An entire unit of grots isn't even being shot at, assuming you eradicate one unit before shooting the next. I mean we all know not the whole army will be in range of not the whole army every turn, we're doing concept math. What's going to happen is a couple damaged units would be around. Well that and the 560 points of whatever else they pair with the Grots. Maybe more than a couple if folks continue to demand their Aggressors in a concept list of 60 Tacs and 30 Assaults, because that means they're also taking the eradicators/heavys/whatever who pay a lot more than 10 points a shot.

4. By the end of turn 3 the grots have done nearly nothing (due to a pitiful melee attack and 12" S3 AP- shooting.) while you should be sitting on more objectives and have maxed out thin their ranks.
5. Continue mop up, probably max out your primary on turn 5, possibly max out assassinate if they've bought a range of characters and whatever your last secondary is.

By the end of turn three your entire army has shot 270 Grots, there are 210 left prior this "hit" hordes took, or 150 after.. The game is more than half over, and did your 60 tacs and 30 Assaults even start with 150/210 ObSec models?

I see a lot of people either putting up a nebulous plan (Shoot them because they die faster than math suggests), changing the paradigm(maxing out anti-horde in a supposedly TAC list), or both.. Nobody has yet explained how an army that will on average and in best case scenarios only kill 450 grots in 5 turns is going to kill 480 plus another 560 points in even fewer turns to clear objectives and score points.

Breton wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Lol @ breton, have you ever actually played an horde army?
Because i'd really like you to try to squeeze 90 25 mm Slota bases on a objective.

Do you think they all have to be on there at the same time? Or do you think they could fill in as casualties occur? Lest we forget this is the extreme example that counters the equally extreme example of 60 Tacs and 30 Assault Marines. I understood that to be a concept army not a real one. I didn't mock the person suggesting noone would take 30 assault marines because I understood it was exactly that, a concept, a template, a place holder, whatever you want to call a generic idea of the thing, not the actual Everyone Takes Exactly This Thing.

2 issues,
A: at most you can squeze in about 30ish models into that cap zone, which then need to survive else you don't score. Cue 9th scoring in favour of non hordes.
B: coherency for every squad over 20+ models is a real issue.

It is easily possible to wipe 50 t4 models off an objective, how do you expect the t2 grots to even compete. And that is without the logistical consideration of movement.

And funny on the later bit, i am one of the wierdos that did run a massed CSM tac list, let me tell you, as soon as tac doctrine kicks in it's in general lights out for that list, which is funny because against any non SM list it does surprisingly well, but then again when you play with what is in essence 500pts ish handicap in cannonfodder marines, i rekon that would be about fair.

Not Online!!! wrote:


2 issues,
A: at most you can squeze in about 30ish models into that cap zone, which then need to survive else you don't score. Cue 9th scoring in favour of non hordes.

Did they add a rule you can't run more models in the area afterwards?

B: coherency for every squad over 20+ models is a real issue.

Moving 480 grots 5 times or more while on the clock is an issue all its own. Yay Movement Trays!

It is easily possible to wipe 50 t4 models off an objective, how do you expect the t2 grots to even compete. And that is without the logistical consideration of movement.

Because I've got 90-120 when you're killing 89.78? If I can bubble the objectives, it's going to take you too long to get me off of four of them to score equal main objective points.

And funny on the later bit, i am one of the wierdos that did run a massed CSM tac list, let me tell you, as soon as tac doctrine kicks in it's in general lights out for that list, which is funny because against any non SM list it does surprisingly well, but then again when you play with what is in essence 500pts ish handicap in cannonfodder marines, i rekon that would be about fair.

I'm Grots in this example. I care not for Tactical Doctrine. My 6+ t-shirt save was already gone. If I were insane enough to really do this, I'd do it with Gaunts, who had a much smaller price hike, I move faster, and I can actually assault somewhat effectively, and I still have a 6+ Tshirt save that's already gone.

You guys are still trying to real-world the concept. The original premise is: Why did horde armies take a hit?

Two reasons.
A)The Meta shifted/adapted, Just look at all the other thread complaints about -, and this thread's attempts to include in the hypothetical- Aggressors Look at the proffered example SM list. 60 Tacs, 30 Assaults, 90 bodies + points left over when most TAC Marine lists work hard to get to 60 - frequently BECAUSE OF those horde lists.
B) in an insanely skewed list they were able to field more bodies than oppositing armies could deal in wounds. In a perfect world the average SM army deals 89.78 or whatever it was wounds. and needs 5 and one third turns to deal 480 wounds. But the world is only imperfect when it comes to moving 480 dudes in movement trays not how many of the 100 SM dudes are in (double tap and simultaneous assault) range of the same 480 dudes.

I am entertained by being told almost simultaneously it is easy to blast 50 T4 off an objective but 5 Intercessors need a concerted effort and/or CP expenditure.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
And yet, in real games, 30 gretchin simply disappear without much effort while 5 intercessors require allocating some serious firepower and/or cp to remove.

You also haven't considered the issues of 90 models in two units having a range of 12" in shooting and the 1/2" rule for melee. So while your math checks out, your application of the theory to the actual game doesn't.

We're not talking about real games if we're talking 60 Tacs and 30 Assaults. We're talking about the concept(s). I mean nobody is pointing out all 2,000 points of Marines won't be in range of all 1400 points of grots every turn either, or that assault marines lose in close combat to intercessors on about turn 8 or 9 (This may change with Angels of Death -I don't remember if I did this before or after that change) so nobody's taking 30 Assaults. This is rough proof of concept math, not gaming out the entire hypothetical game. You haven't seen me game out how much damage 480 grots do even with their 12" range because its primary to nor even a secondary part of the concept. I'll even point out in a game with no objectives just 100% kill em all, this concept goes down in flames. In some sort of a line breaker scenario, I'm slow, but I have more than double your units. And I still don't care if I shoot you. I'm going to run all turn every turn. You can have half of them, I'll still drag half or so of my army across the table while you're trying to catch up after getting bogged down.

1. You are moving goalposts. I was clearly addressing your argument on how gretchin perform, not the comparison between assault marines and intercessors.
2. A concept that cannot be applied to real games is per definition incorrect. You have effectively conceded to be wrong on all accounts.

Go play a real game, none of your "concepts" even remotely resemble how the game works and are based on way to many assumptions to be of value for a tactical discussion.

no, you are ignoring that your theory crfting point is worthless because it is physically imposible to squeze more then 30 models in the objective radius,
you can't congaline onto the objective in 9th aswell.
AND You need to have the squad /squads on it survive to the next turn, allowing an methodical removal from an objective, making non durable horde infantry an excercise in futility.

Your theory exemple therefore means nothing, becaus it doesn't even withstand the theorethical physical limitations of an objective range and score.

Breton wrote:

Two reasons.

Really:

1) Units that were cheap, hence expendable and spammable, aren't anymore.

2) Lethality has dramatically increased. In 5th a strong shooting oriented army had half the firepower of current competitive TAC lists.

 Jidmah wrote:

1. You are moving goalposts. I was clearly addressing your argument on how gretchin perform, not the comparison between assault marines and intercessors.

For expecting the same consideration I was giving? For countering your point about.. whatever it was, I'm too tired to go back and look - by pointing out the premise SM list was also skewed in a way that isn't how people work the game?

2. A concept that cannot be applied to real games is per definition incorrect. You have effectively conceded to be wrong on all accounts.

It can be. It (currently) isn't. Is there some rule prohibiting someone from being a good enough player to do this? Anybody seen those goalposts?

Go play a real game, none of your "concepts" even remotely resemble how the game works and are based on way to many assumptions to be of value for a tactical discussion.

I can't, we're on lockdown. This isn't a tactical discussion, this is a strategic discussion. A tactical discussion would be about HOW to do this, not CAN you do this. What I've just said does resemble how the game works. It doesn't resemble how people (currently) work the game. No one is doing this and This cannot be done are not the same thing. "Nobody" is running 60 Tacs and 30 Assaults either. Reduce both extremes in both lists if you want. Ignore the reasons they did it because you didn't like the fact they did it in the first place if you want.

Not Online!!! wrote:
no, you are ignoring that your theory crfting point is worthless because it is physically imposible to squeze more then 30 models in the objective radius,

Last I checked during casualty removal you pick which of your models get picked up? You don't have to pick up the ones actually on the objective.

you can't congaline onto the objective in 9th aswell.

But you can pinwheel. that gets all three units controlling

AND You need to have the squad /squads on it survive to the next turn, allowing an methodical removal from an objective, making non durable horde infantry an excercise in futility.

and leaves you 1-31 left on the objective during the next command phase because you don't have to conga line if you remove the models that were already out of range first.

Your theory exemple therefore means nothing, becaus it doesn't even withstand the theorethical physical limitations of an objective range and score.

The theoretical physical limitations of putting parts of 3-4 squads on the objective instead of ringing them outside of objective range?

So, I'm out of date on the thread here, are we talking about how someone should hold an objective with 300 points of grots for some reason instead of holding it with 300 points of vastly, VASTLY more durable Boyz+KFF Mek that can actually get anything done in the game?

Even if the stat shift for gretchin to Boyz was JUST T2-T4 it'd be worth 3pts.

But it's not, it's S2-S4, T2-T4, Sv7+-Sv6+, A1-A3/4, S3 gun-S4 gun, WS5+-WS3+, Ld4-Ld FREAKING THIRTY, no clan trait - clan trait, +ere we go, +Every ork aura, +can use stratagems.

it's absolutely fething laughable for 3 points.

You don't even get a bigger model footprint for the grots! EVEN if your point is "Oh but they block space" BOYZ ARE BETTER AT THAT JOB. Because yes, you get 3/8 more models, but they're on 25mms instead of 32mms!

Breton wrote:

you can't congaline

But you can pinwheel.

9th edition in a nutshell.

More splitting hairs, moving goalposts and straw men.

I'm actually playing games, and I'm certain many other people in regions with dwindling case numbers are as well.
There also people playing on TTS (maybe give that a try?) collection actual experience.

The simple truth is that gretchin are horrible at holding objectives and intercessors are great objective campers, if not one of the best.