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 Ordana wrote:
Marine players who enjoy being broken trying to pretend that this will be a nerf so people stop complaining about how broken marines are.

Funny, because in reality, this is exactly the excuse Tau were using for their broken for years when GW instead of properly nerfing one of the most OP units in the game just limited it. Even so, Tau spent the rest of the edition complaining that garbage is ToTeS BaLaNcEd ReMoVe LiMiT. Maybe xeno players should look in the mirror and stop projecting?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"I don't know if 2CP for a captain is worth it."

If you reroll more than 2 ones for that Captain during an important shooting attack (all of them if you're picking targets correctly), you've made your CP back in CP-rerolls alone.

So, according to you, Farsight Enclaves can generate anywhere between 20 to 50 CP per turn? I like how the anti-SM "arguments" are getting more and more disingenuous

 Insectum7 wrote:
They exist in the army whether the Eradicators are in there or not, and they buff far more than the Eradicators. So no, you don't include the cost of the CM+Lt.

Brilliant argument. "Every SM unit is OP because it has 300 points of buffs that are everywhere at once, can't be removed, generate 99 mortal wounds per turn, and punch babies in the face". If your local Marines are using 6000 points of units in 1500 point games, maybe you should tell them they are cheating. Or, you know, stop setting up salt-strawxenos the size of Pluto...

 Irbis wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Marine players who enjoy being broken trying to pretend that this will be a nerf so people stop complaining about how broken marines are.

Funny, because in reality, this is exactly the excuse Tau were using for their broken for years when GW instead of properly nerfing one of the most OP units in the game just limited it. Even so, Tau spent the rest of the edition complaining that garbage is ToTeS BaLaNcEd ReMoVe LiMiT. Maybe xeno players should look in the mirror and stop projecting?

The problem with the commander limit was that it did nothing to address why commanders were being spammed in the first place. It didn't fix the issue that they were the most points efficient shooting in the whole army, that they lacked any synergy with the army that would make them an actual commander rather than a weapons platform etc.

So rather than actually address the cause, GW just slapped a band-aid on and called it fixed. Tau players would have much preferred that the issues with the army were actually fixed so that commanders weren't the go-to unit and stuff like Crisis teams would actually be viable.

 vict0988 wrote:

For that reason I'm more inclined to Attack Bikes or MM Speeders (or the upcoming Marine ATV), or Plasma Inceptors (but not really) for a faster distracting unit to pair with Aggressors over two plodding foot sloggers i.e adding Eradicators.

You're going to take 1-shot MM Attack Bikes or Speeders or are you just assuming the upgrade to Heavy 2 has already been implemented into the pts? The new codex is still several months away. There is no greater distraction than a unit of Eradicators, they are cheap, durable and cause a lot of damage. Why do you need speed, do you think your opponent will ignore them until they get in range of something important and blow it up? You can also take 3x3 Eradicators 2x5 Aggressors and still have pts left for 3x3 Primaris Bikes to act as a bonus distraction.

The codex may be up for pre-order in a little over 4 weeks so it's hardly months away, at worst 9 weeks tops. I find it funny you criticise someones choices saying they should expect points to change but don't mention that eradicators/aggressors/outriders points might also change.

Breton wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Breton wrote:
Without the Deepstrike angle I think the Eradicators are over-valued. Not over costed, or underpowered or non-capable etc but over-hyped.

And I think you need to read the thread again to discover the math underlying why Eradicators are OP. They are definitely undercosted and definitely overpowered and supremely capable. The hype level is probably about right, maybe a tad too high. The max unit size of 3 and rule of 3 prevents them from having as big an impact on the meta as they would have had if you could take 3x5 or 5x3.

That's what I just said. I said they were over-hyped, I even specifically pointed out I was only talking about the hype not a comment on bad/good/etc.

No, you said you were more inclined to take other units than Eradicators and did not once say that you aknowledge that Eradicators are currently OP. Fair enough if you still think M5+D6 is slow and my bad for not understanding your intentions were going forward with the new codex given some fair assumptions (I think it is sadly unlikely that multimeltas will go up in pts given lascannon's current cost). I think GW has taken the asscannons are the best anti-vehicle critisism to heart and instead of increasing durability of vehicles, particularly against those sort of weapons, they are making anti-heavy-vehicle weapons more cost-efficient, which is silly because you already did not see anyone taking any boltguns on their Devastator Squads, meaning anti-tank was not degrees of weak, but all degrees of overpowered.

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They exist in the army whether the Eradicators are in there or not, and they buff far more than the Eradicators. So no, you don't include the cost of the CM+Lt.

Brilliant argument. "Every SM unit is OP because it has 300 points of buffs that are everywhere at once, can't be removed, generate 99 mortal wounds per turn, and punch babies in the face". If your local Marines are using 6000 points of units in 1500 point games, maybe you should tell them they are cheating. Or, you know, stop setting up salt-strawxenos the size of Pluto...

You should not ignore the fact that SM have OP support units. There is no perfect way to represent the value of support auras, but most factions don't have Chapter Masters and it can be quite frustrating to play against, even with, that many re-rolls. The math for Eradicators is very good regardless of whether you add CM and Lieutenant anyways, it's not needed, just more fuel for the hate fire.

Dudeface wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

For that reason I'm more inclined to Attack Bikes or MM Speeders (or the upcoming Marine ATV), or Plasma Inceptors (but not really) for a faster distracting unit to pair with Aggressors over two plodding foot sloggers i.e adding Eradicators.

You're going to take 1-shot MM Attack Bikes or Speeders or are you just assuming the upgrade to Heavy 2 has already been implemented into the pts? The new codex is still several months away. There is no greater distraction than a unit of Eradicators, they are cheap, durable and cause a lot of damage. Why do you need speed, do you think your opponent will ignore them until they get in range of something important and blow it up? You can also take 3x3 Eradicators 2x5 Aggressors and still have pts left for 3x3 Primaris Bikes to act as a bonus distraction.

The codex may be up for pre-order in a little over 4 weeks so it's hardly months away, at worst 9 weeks tops. I find it funny you criticise someones choices saying they should expect points to change but don't mention that eradicators/aggressors/outriders points might also change.

9 weeks is over 2 months. By months I meant literally two months. I could be playing if I wanted to, but why would I want to play with pts I know were made intentionally bad? I'll give PL and crusade a swing in a few weeks when my legions are ready to march, but if you are playing pts right now then Eradicators are without a doubt one of the most efficient units in the game and you should be taking them if you want to win. It is not that I want you to bring Eradicators, I want you to not bring Eradicators and but I want you to give yourselves a pat on the back if you don't, good job, you didn't jump on the OP band-wagon.

 Irbis wrote:
Funny, because in reality, this is exactly the excuse Tau were using for their broken for years when GW instead of properly nerfing one of the most OP units in the game just limited it. Even so, Tau spent the rest of the edition complaining that garbage is ToTeS BaLaNcEd ReMoVe LiMiT. Maybe xeno players should look in the mirror and stop projecting?

1. Tau players wanted their army to be fixed, not a band-aid slapped on the fact that Commanders were viable and Crisis teams were not.
2. Most xenos players aren't playing Tau. This is like telling Marine players to stop whining about [insert OP faction here] because Imperial Knights were OP for a while.
3. 'You can't criticize Marine units for being broken because Tau players defended their broken units' is both a terrible strawman and a terrible argument.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, according to you, Farsight Enclaves can generate anywhere between 20 to 50 CP per turn? I like how the anti-SM "arguments" are getting more and more disingenuous

The point is that if you are likely going to end up burning CP on re-rolls for important shots anyways, the CP to upgrade a Captain to a Chapter Master pays for itself. 2CP is minimal cost for what it does.

FSE does, in fact, greatly reduce Tau reliance on markerlights and re-rolls- if you get within knife-fight range of the enemy, which is an enormous trade-off for a faction with little melee capability. The only limitation on the Chapter Master aura is its radius, which with the removal of templates has no such immediate downsides.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Brilliant argument. "Every SM unit is OP because it has 300 points of buffs that are everywhere at once, can't be removed, generate 99 mortal wounds per turn, and punch babies in the face". If your local Marines are using 6000 points of units in 1500 point games, maybe you should tell them they are cheating. Or, you know, stop setting up salt-strawxenos the size of Pluto...

Well then, see the analyses on the previous page. Tacking an extra 5-11pts onto the cost of 3 Eradicators to represent re-rolls doesn't make them less appealing. They already overperform with no buffs at all; paying a pittance to dramatically boost their firepower makes them even better.

I would respectfully suggest you step back and have a read through this thread, because it's not all empty salt and whining, and you are not making very good arguments against the core issues people have raised.

 vict0988 wrote:

No, you said you were more inclined to take other units than Eradicators and did not once say that you aknowledge that Eradicators are currently OP.

Its right there, I said I wasn't even talking about their points/power just the hype.

Breton wrote:
Not over costed, or underpowered or non-capable etc but over-hyped.

Fair enough if you still think M5+D6 is slow and my bad for not understanding your intentions were going forward with the new codex given some fair assumptions (I think it is sadly unlikely that multimeltas will go up in pts given lascannon's current cost). I think GW has taken the asscannons are the best anti-vehicle critisism to heart and instead of increasing durability of vehicles, particularly against those sort of weapons, they are making anti-heavy-vehicle weapons more cost-efficient, which is silly because you already did not see anyone taking any boltguns on their Devastator Squads, meaning anti-tank was not degrees of weak, but all degrees of overpowered.

It was 8 pages ago or so. Easy to miss.
M5 + D6" averages 8.5". Tanks they get a ride in go 10 or so, Jumpy Boys 12 or so, Bikes 14 or so, Speeders are faster yet.

I think Melta is changing price, but not much. And not as much as it's changing potency. It seems like every edition has a flavor of the month. Grav, Flame, Las, Melta or Plas. In 2nd Flame let you light models on fire for multiple turns. So to speak. In the rules. As a game mechanic. Not literally. Don't light your or someone else's models on fire. I do think Melta is going to be next edition's FOTM. They're certainly not being shy about foreshadowing it. I'm not especially convinced there isn't a method behind the madness either. Smaller Tables don't have as much room for tanks and flyers. If they go boom too fast, players will take fewer of them, and the table will feel a lot bigger if you have to walk across it. Especially the diagonal. Get some Shield Dome Impulsors painted up.

The table will also feel a lot smaller, because cramming lots of infantry models into a tiny space is harder than a few vehicles (provided they're chimera sized).

My opinion, based on mission design, board size, and the (lack of) importance of maneuver is that 40k is secretly trying to edge into the Rugby Scrum Simulation market.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The table will also feel a lot smaller, because cramming lots of infantry models into a tiny space is harder than a few vehicles (provided they're chimera sized).

My opinion, based on mission design, board size, and the (lack of) importance of maneuver is that 40k is secretly trying to edge into the Rugby Scrum Simulation market.

Points and PL prices just went up too. Plus I don't think GW wants the smaller board empty, just effectively larger. We had 48x72 boards. They're now 44 x60

48x72 is a hypotenuse of almost 87 with a 6" move, what 14? 15? turns, a 48" gun range crosses Player Edge to Player Edge. a 36inch Gun crosses Deployment Edge to Player Edge
44x60 is just over 74" and 12 turns. And a newly preferred 24" gun doesn't cross a Not-Within-24 No Man's land. The maneuver thing makes me laugh too. It seems like GW is always trying to make Maneuver a thing and the players always figure out how to not.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
That said, I don't think tue captain is astoundingly relevant, because he also could buff the predator or the land speeders. Now, of course, he may just leave the Pred behind or not be able to keep up with the speeders while he'll probably easily be able to hang out with Eradicators, but that question is getting a little specific.


However,
The Eradicators are still better than a Predator. In fact, for 180 points, the Pred doesn't even compete at all with either the Speeders or the Eradicators.

Eradicators could be 180 points and still compare favorably to the Pred, almost 3 times better in close range and twice as good in long range.

Now, if contemptors are the model for underpriced and overcapable, predators are pretty much the opposite

This is twofold, the predator needs some help but at the same time it's harder to hurt than the eradicators.

Str 10 does exist with some frequency.

It's... actually not really. The Eradicators are three discrete bodies at T5 Sv3+ with 9 total wounds. Predators are a single body of T7 Sv3+ W11. Damage wise, Eradicators are actually more resilient against D3, D6, 2, and 4+ damage weapons. And this isn't like the Land Speeder Squadron where it's mostly a wash, the Eradictors take more missile, lascannon, battle cannon, and plasmagun shots to kill than a Predator.

And as for toughness, because of the vagarities of the wound chart and the fact that for some reason the mark of a heavy tank is it's improve resilience against small arms, they're also pretty similar in that respect at the end of the day, unless your meta is saturated with S6 D3 weapons.

GW could make maneuver matter if they wanted to. Deleting armor facings is an example of them /not/ wanting it to matter. They deleted gun arcs too, weird.

Anyways, I don't much care how long it takes for a model moving 6" to cross the hypotenuse. The DZs are 24" apart, or 4 turns at 6". But no model ever moves only 6".

If you need to get there quickly, you run (~10" per turn, rounding). If you are any army in the game you have a way to run further or a faster base movement or some other movement shenanigans (I can't think of an army that lacks some way to accelerate their movement). If you have a slow base move you will have some kind of deep strike tool used on you (e.g. terminators) etc. etc.

There's not a single scenario in the game I can think of now where a unit just plods 6" forwards until the game ends with no ability to go faster.

gun arcs are a problem because tank minis' aren't designed and POINTED with arcs in mind.


a tank with a turret mounted Lascanon was priced the same as one with a hull mounted

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They exist in the army whether the Eradicators are in there or not, and they buff far more than the Eradicators. So no, you don't include the cost of the CM+Lt.

Brilliant argument. "Every SM unit is OP because it has 300 points of buffs that are everywhere at once, can't be removed, generate 99 mortal wounds per turn, and punch babies in the face". If your local Marines are using 6000 points of units in 1500 point games, maybe you should tell them they are cheating. Or, you know, stop setting up salt-strawxenos the size of Pluto...

Are you suggesting that the CM and Lt. are delicately only buffing a single unit at a time? Are you playing lots of marine armies that are spending their mandatory HQ choices on a Librarian and Chaplain? How nice that must be for you, to exist in a meta where marine players are so gentle with their application of rerolls.

well, I've never taken a CM & generally take a Chaplain, Librarian with a Lt or 2.

Its gotta suck to play in a meta where the only way to play is feth YOU lists.

Racerguy180 wrote:
well, I've never taken a CM & generally take a Chaplain, Librarian with a Lt or 2.

Its gotta suck to play in a meta where the only way to play is feth YOU lists.

When talking about competitive balance, it helps to be keen on what's taken competitively. I love(ed) my meta, pre-quarantine.

Racerguy180 wrote:
well, I've never taken a CM & generally take a Chaplain, Librarian with a Lt or 2.

Its gotta suck to play in a meta where the only way to play is feth YOU lists.

It must be nice being able to play a faction where you can afford to deliberately take the most sub optimal choice..

What I don't understand is, why the fact YOU personally don't do it, also seems to means YOU don't seem to appreciate how it works and refuse to accept it exists and is obviously the best optimal choice. Its almost like you could not do something, but understand how in reality it is widespread and how it works, and appreciate how it synergises with other stuff instead of being as obstuse as possibly can..

Take Eldar flyer spam and alitoic. I dont own a single one of those models.. The reason was because they were simply broken OP. Plain and simple I knew that.. everyone else knew that.
But at no point did I say "Well... I think you are all picking on the CHE and alitoic.. I don't take fliers clearly theres no problem because I don't take them I don't understand why they work" that would make me seem ill informed at best and deliberately disingenuous at worse.

Umm, Chaplains and Librarians are very optimal for my Salamanders.

I dont play competitively & have zero interest in doing so. In my opinion competitive play is the worst thing to happen to 40k since...ever. If you don't agree, fine. If you do, fine. It's an opinion and no more/less valid than anyone else's.

I play for fun, not to crush my enemies(Conan said it better). If I take a capt it's because my list calls for it(i.e. I'm playing something actually company scale 3-4k pts). Cuz why would a Capt(and to a greater extent, Chapter Masters) be on the field otherwise, when there are other commanders that are more lore appropriate. nothing in a 2k game is worth a CM's time.

First of all I never said it wasnt a problem for those players who play feth you style. it just makes zero sense to me why would you WANT to play that way.

y'all are focusing on fething over the person you're playing WITH way, waaaayyyyy too much.

No-one is discussing the merits of playing with the objective of winning the game, or playing with the objective to play just for the sake of playing.

That is immaterial to whether or not a unit is good on the table... I mean... I don't know where to go from here.

how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".

if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.

If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?

If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?

Racerguy180 wrote:
how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".

if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.

If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?

If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?

That is the weirdest, most competetive sounding post I've seen from someone who so forcefully espouses the merits of their own casual gaming.

So. . . Question: Do you duck from playing against so called "f*** you lists"?

Racerguy180 wrote:
how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".

if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.

If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?

If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?

I think you fail to see a lot of things.. irony, being chief amongst them.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".

if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.

If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?

If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?

That is the weirdest, most competetive sounding post I've seen from someone who so forcefully espouses the merits of their own casual gaming.

So. . . Question: Do you duck from playing against so called "f*** you lists"?

dont need to, luckily we are chill and dont really care about spamming x or y so it doesnt really come up. if something is too powerful, a 5min convo before the game fixes the problem. see that's what grownups call compromise. you should try it sometime.
but if someone is insistent, I ain't no punk bitch and have zero problem writing a feth you list. It just interests me less than having explosive gaks syndrome. I probably wont have any fun spamming bs, since the units I tend to take are "uncompetitive". Why would I want to change my playstyle just to fit someone elses idea of what that playstyle is, sounds lame.

Also, how was anything I said competitive? if competitive is your mindset, then why are you complaining about how competitive something is.

I could care less how "good" something is and i sure as gak dont care about tourneys.

still didnt answer my question about (not)playing against Taudar, gman razor spam, castellans? what would you do in a tourney, play them or not?

This board sometimes, I swear.

Are we in acknowledgment that that CM plus Lt is a common competitive thing? And that Space Marine re-rolls are a competitive thing? And that a CM and Lt bubble can affect a LOT more than the single unit in question here?

Ffs.

 Insectum7 wrote:
This board sometimes, I swear.

Are we in acknowledgment that that CM plus Lt is a common competitive thing? And that Space Marine re-rolls are a competitive thing? And that a CM and Lt bubble can affect a LOT more than the single unit in question here?

Ffs.

I'd say if you expand it to Capt/CM+ LT its common to practically ubiquitous. Rerolls are a thing, yes. Definte "a LOT", also CAN or USUALLY does X to whatever "a LOT" means. I'm on pretty much on board right until that last sentence.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Umm, Chaplains and Librarians are very optimal for my Salamanders.

Why didn't you mention the Eradicator math was too low since you play Salamanders, only that it is too high because you get free re-rolls and don't need a CM and Lieutenant? 6 shots + re-roll is 4,67 hits, with a re-roll against a Leman Russ is 3,78 wounds, 13,22 damage and 220 pts dead, no CM, no LT 120 pts.

Re rolls, no re rolls, they are very oppressive. And unlike things like the silly grav pot, they do not depend on strats. So GW cannot claim it was some unintended synergy that made them release the unit at its current points. It was plain greed and they MtG approach to balance; but we aren’t playing with cards but expensive miniatures that are also time consuming to paint. At this point I think TTS is a better platform for 40k than the real thing.

Want to see some cheese in action?

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/726260380

At around the 1 hour mark nick n brings the pod and kills 2 tank commanders at 27’’ range...allowing for so much counterplay from his opponent.

Current board tables are scary small and melts range is plenty. Aggressors and eradicators are plain OP And every single competitive player is aware of it.

If you don’t care about whether something is OP or not because you play using some house rules and gentlemen agreements, then you have no business discussing balance.

 vict0988 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Umm, Chaplains and Librarians are very optimal for my Salamanders.

Why didn't you mention the Eradicator math was too low since you play Salamanders, only that it is too high because you get free re-rolls and don't need a CM and Lieutenant? 6 shots + re-roll is 4,67 hits, with a re-roll against a Leman Russ is 3,78 wounds, 13,22 damage and 220 pts dead, no CM, no LT 120 pts.

wow those 3 models are gamebreakingly powerful & will auto win ALL THE GAMES! why even build them since they just auto kill superheavies, prob better to just throw them out so as not to upset anyone.

Tu'shan not having a model is the reason I've never run one and wont until he does(and then only in big games). I'll run eradicators since they're a melta unit and I could give 2 gaks how good they are, just like I've done w my flamestorm aggressors(cuz they look great). for me they fit in with my overall theme of the army and I like how the models look.

if they work better in a Salamanders list, good. kinda expect the army known for burning & melting stuff to be good at it. just like how assault intercessors would do better in a white Scars list & bolt aggressors to be better for Fists.

Anyone thinking GW is interested in balance really needs to take a long look in the mirror.

Racerguy180 wrote:

I could give 2 gaks how good they are

So what the heck are you doing in a thread talking about balance?

Grey40k wrote:
Re rolls, no re rolls, they are very oppressive. And unlike things like the silly grav pot, they do not depend on strats. So GW cannot claim it was some unintended synergy that made them release the unit at its current points. It was plain greed and they MtG approach to balance; but we aren’t playing with cards but expensive miniatures that are also time consuming to paint. At this point I think TTS is a better platform for 40k than the real thing.

Want to see some cheese in action?

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/726260380

At around the 1 hour mark nick n brings the pod and kills 2 tank commanders at 27’’ range...allowing for so much counterplay from his opponent.

Current board tables are scary small and melts range is plenty. Aggressors and eradicators are plain OP And every single competitive player is aware of it.

If you don’t care about whether something is OP or not because you play using some house rules and gentlemen agreements, then you have no business discussing balance.

At about 1hr 7, 1 unit of eradicators come in from reserves with captain support, he gets 6 hits, 6 wounds using the best possible combination of traits for them (which we can be fairly sure won't be in the same form as they are now) and remove a leman russ, doesn't say it's a commander at that point so idk.

Either way, anyone getting hit and wounded by 6 s8 ap -5 d:d6 shots is going to hurt, even if it is statistically unlikely.

Anyone not a successor salamanders literally can't do what he did there, a pure iron hands force firing from 24" with a captain does 10ish wounds, still too many but a bit more reasonable.

Not really on topic - but I do wonder if Tabletop Simulator will hurt 40k. Or at least exaggerated the difference between competitive/casual players - or people who play to win/solve the gaming aspect, and people who want to collect, build, paint etc. (Or people who play but for some reason don't care about whether a unit is good, bad, indifferent etc.)

Because it seems to me TTS could - if people played it enough - allow meta evolution to really move forward - almost, but not quite, to the pace of computer games. You can theoretically test list variations over and over again. I guess this was always theoretically possible with proxies or pieces of paper, but that's kind of lame.

I guess the issue is player base. Both how many are actually wiling to play on TTS, and how many really care enough to focus on builds in this way.

As for the above - yes, 6 S8 AP-5 D6 damage wounds will hurt anything. Which is why it shouldn't be possible for Eradicators to get 27" range, or 24" really, and they certainly shouldn't cost just 120 points.

Just gonna chip in on the MTG comparison since it's so very wrong: competitive modern decks cost more than most 40k armies do. competitive standard decks aren't as bad, but still expensive.

MtG is only cheap if you specifically explode the expensive cards or if you just play kitchen table MTG

Edit: I like what my phone did to the word "exclude",so I'm going to keep it.