Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/04 19:09:23
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Purifying Tempest wrote: You know... Eradicators got me thinking about "how to kill Space Marines" - the silly article from WHC the other day. You want to know what didn't pop up and should have? Dark Reapers.
Though they didn't show up probably because of a lot of lingering salt.
Starshot missiles will take care of pesky Gravis Armored models.
Starswarm missiles will handle the rest.
They don't have the massive volume to carry the entire army to victory, but I think they become a really nice answer to Gravis armor in particular. All the while, being at a very comfortable range away from those nasty Gravis threats (Aggressors and Eradicators).
In 9th, with the prevalence of terrain, they're pretty lacklustre. Their range is largely irrelevant, and they don't have enough shots in a unit to really put a big dent into anything much. They're also more expensive than terminators, for a T3 body and no invulnerable save, so they die to a stiff breeze. They're one of the better craftworld infantry units... but right now, that isn't saying an awful lot, craftworld infantry is mostly garbage. 20-35 points, for the defensive statline of a 5pt guardsman.
100% agreed. Craftworlds are going to need some fundamental rethinking in a take-and-hold environment. Not having blanket invulnerables like everything else in the game... on top of no defensive potency on a model with an elite price tag... the foot troops are all but dead. I'm still enjoying my Court of the Young King (Biel-tan Aspect focused list)... but I definitely don't see it doing anything but crumpling to any competitive list.
I hate making direct comparisons, but really... look at any Gravis-clad model in the SM line... and put it up against Craftworld Elites. Fire Dragons vs Eradicators, Swooping Hawks/Windriders vs Aggressors and really see a tale of two codices. Anyone arguing that it is not so one-sidedly favoring the Gravis models is just homering for their guys because "it is their turn" or some nonsense.
Mr Morden wrote: Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
If their melta rifles go to 1 shot and a strat to fire twice, then they better get a points cut because they'd become pointless otherwise.
Given MMs are going to 2 shots I don't see that happening. Points will change, rules won't. So it depends points MMs go to. If they just 20-25 points, then, yeah. Apparently this is a thing now. (I still think they should go up to 35-40 points).
But apparently utterly broken ludicrousness is what Imperial anti-tank does now. Sucks to be Xenos. Not sure if Chaos have MMs either (don't think so). But there we go.
Its still dumb, because you are going to have a devastator with MM at say 40 ish points and a Eradicator who has... an extra point of toughness, an extra wound, no penalty for moving and shooting for... 0 points more but... yeah. Crazier things have happened.
If that's the bar. Okay. But everyone else needs to be buffed, and any vehicle costing more than 80-100 points needs to go sit on a shelf.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 19:24:15
Racerguy180 wrote: how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".
if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.
If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?
If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?
Racerguy, i'm sure you are a chill guy and a lot of fun to play against, but your mindset of For Fun only games and house rules is completely irrelevant to the point of this entire thread.
There is a large and vibrant community of competitive players and tournament players. But even ignoring that, discussing balance is just good for the game. Every edition, heck, every release there are guys similar to you who argue against balance and nerfs/buffs because "who cares, just house rule" or some other similar argument. And there isn't anything wrong with that in your own meta i'm sure. However, in the competitive meta it is important and that will even trickle down to your friendly meta by simply making games more balanced which is a lot more fun. Saying units don't need to be balanced is just bad for the game in general.
but why should anything that's from tournaments(spamming units, wombocombo gotchas)trickle down to fun metas? all that serves is to make fun metas more tourney like, which as far as I can tell, isnt wanted? the only people who want that are people playing in tournament metas.
kinda weird when the most fun games I've ever had I've been at a disadvantage i.e. unbalanced.
I still dont understand why 3models are soooooo OP? o wait when you take 3 full squads(spamming) they're an issue.
But if you guys are so competitive im sure you can figure out a way to deal with it? cuz isnt that the point of feth you lists, either deal with it or dont? Do you just concede when you see them in your opponents list? Or is it that in needing to prepare for this one unit you need to skew the rest of your armys list for it? which would then make it more difficult to deal with other factions?
Take a Space Marine army using only 1 of each unit and play against any other army only take 1 of each unit (ignore troops if you think that changes anything) and tell me how it goes. I bet the Marine player gets to take a lot more 'good' units then whatever they are facing and they will likely handily win because of the plethora of good units in the current Space Marine arsenal compared to everyone else having only a handful in total in their codex. (if they even get to a handful).
Spam isn't the issue with things like Eradicators, its a symptom of the issue. Them being utterly undercosted.
Pretending its somehow balanced if you only take 1 unit is sticking your fingers in your ear and shout nanananananananaanCan'tHearYou.
undercosted units are undercosted. regardless of how many you take.
Mr Morden wrote: Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
If their melta rifles go to 1 shot and a strat to fire twice, then they better get a points cut because they'd become pointless otherwise.
And if they get a strat to fire three times or auto wound or similar - guess the opposite is true.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
100% agreed. Craftworlds are going to need some fundamental rethinking in a take-and-hold environment. Not having blanket invulnerables like everything else in the game... on top of no defensive potency on a model with an elite price tag... the foot troops are all but dead. I'm still enjoying my Court of the Young King (Biel-tan Aspect focused list)... but I definitely don't see it doing anything but crumpling to any competitive list.
I hate making direct comparisons, but really... look at any Gravis-clad model in the SM line... and put it up against Craftworld Elites. Fire Dragons vs Eradicators, Swooping Hawks/Windriders vs Aggressors and really see a tale of two codices. Anyone arguing that it is not so one-sidedly favoring the Gravis models is just homering for their guys because "it is their turn" or some nonsense.
I collect three ranges of models for 40k: demons, eldars, custodes.
And oh boy you are a 100% right in this analysis. The comparisons between sort of equivalent units in the eldar range and primaris are frustrating.
Mr Morden wrote: Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
If their melta rifles go to 1 shot and a strat to fire twice, then they better get a points cut because they'd become pointless otherwise.
a 24" meltagun on a t5 3w body for 40 points sounds 'normal', not pointless.
(except for the point you can make that normal in competitive isn't good enough, but that simply means the other stuff that is to good needs to get nerfed down)
Mr Morden wrote: Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
If their melta rifles go to 1 shot and a strat to fire twice, then they better get a points cut because they'd become pointless otherwise.
Crisis suits would like a word, they currently cost more points for less range.
Even bare suit plus 18 inch fusion blaster is 45 points for T5 3w 3+ with no doctorines no shock assualt no super doctrines. And they need another 1or 2CP spent just to make the BS3+
That additional AP from doctrines that's another 5 points so ita now 50 ppm still with 6 inches less range.
Racerguy180 wrote: how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".
if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.
If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?
If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?
Racerguy, i'm sure you are a chill guy and a lot of fun to play against, but your mindset of For Fun only games and house rules is completely irrelevant to the point of this entire thread.
There is a large and vibrant community of competitive players and tournament players. But even ignoring that, discussing balance is just good for the game. Every edition, heck, every release there are guys similar to you who argue against balance and nerfs/buffs because "who cares, just house rule" or some other similar argument. And there isn't anything wrong with that in your own meta i'm sure. However, in the competitive meta it is important and that will even trickle down to your friendly meta by simply making games more balanced which is a lot more fun. Saying units don't need to be balanced is just bad for the game in general.
but why should anything that's from tournaments(spamming units, wombocombo gotchas)trickle down to fun metas? all that serves is to make fun metas more tourney like, which as far as I can tell, isnt wanted? the only people who want that are people playing in tournament metas.
kinda weird when the most fun games I've ever had I've been at a disadvantage i.e. unbalanced.
I still dont understand why 3models are soooooo OP? o wait when you take 3 full squads(spamming) they're an issue.
But if you guys are so competitive im sure you can figure out a way to deal with it? cuz isnt that the point of feth you lists, either deal with it or dont? Do you just concede when you see them in your opponents list? Or is it that in needing to prepare for this one unit you need to skew the rest of your armys list for it? which would then make it more difficult to deal with other factions?
Take a Space Marine army using only 1 of each unit and play against any other army only take 1 of each unit (ignore troops if you think that changes anything) and tell me how it goes. I bet the Marine player gets to take a lot more 'good' units then whatever they are facing and they will likely handily win because of the plethora of good units in the current Space Marine arsenal compared to everyone else having only a handful in total in their codex. (if they even get to a handful).
Spam isn't the issue with things like Eradicators, its a symptom of the issue. Them being utterly undercosted.
Pretending its somehow balanced if you only take 1 unit is sticking your fingers in your ear and shout nanananananananaanCan'tHearYou.
undercosted units are undercosted. regardless of how many you take.
The real difference is. Undercosted marine unit is a instant hot fix problem that breaks the internet. But an undercosted DE unit like a ravager..or an eldar unit like a shinning spear...or an IG command tank...we can ignore those issues for 18+ months. No problem.
Mr Morden wrote: Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
If their melta rifles go to 1 shot and a strat to fire twice, then they better get a points cut because they'd become pointless otherwise.
Crisis suits would like a word, they currently cost more points for less range.
Even bare suit plus 18 inch fusion blaster is 45 points for T5 3w 3+ with no doctorines no shock assualt no super doctrines. And they need another 1or 2CP spent just to make the BS3+
That additional AP from doctrines that's another 5 points so ita now 50 ppm still with 6 inches less range.
" with no doctorines no shock assualt no super doctrines"
This is irrelvent Tau have their own army wide rules. Which are actually pretty good mind you...The ability to deep strike on it's own is worth a fair amount of points. The ability to fly over a wall is also worth a fair amount of points. Aint no one taking suits with 1 gun anyways because it wouldn't make sense. You take them with 3 rocket pods are 2 rockets and a SG with -2 AP missles (-1 AP for missles army trait effective the whole game BTW...better than doctrines) and kill the Erradicators before they every get in range. Or you just deep strike and kill them with fusions or plasma.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 19:36:35
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: The real difference is. Undercosted marine unit is a instant hot fix problem that breaks the internet. But an undercosted DE unit like a ravager..or an eldar unit like a shinning spear...or an IG command tank...we can ignore those issues for 18+ months. No problem.
Pretty sure these forums have been aflame for months complaining about broken eldar units and the entire Guard codex being undercosted. (I should know, I was one of those complaining)
In what universe do you live where people didn't complained about them for 18+ months?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 19:38:21
Mr Morden wrote: Surely its better not to have overpowered units than to have them?
If you don't care about them - then why worry if they are brought down to a resonmable level (say by making their cheesy rule a strat) and/or a points increase.
They will still be good and usable but not something people sigh about when you put them on the table....
I remember the reaction when people starting unpacking Wave Serpents when they were broken as feth.
If their melta rifles go to 1 shot and a strat to fire twice, then they better get a points cut because they'd become pointless otherwise.
I mean... they'd then still be better than the Xenos equivalents. They just would be pointless compared to other space marine options.
Which is kinda the whole issue with the space marine codex right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote: Pretty sure these forums have been aflame for months complaining about broken eldar units and the entire Guard codex being undercosted. (I should know, I was one of those complaining)
In what universe do you live where people didn't complained about them for 18+ months?
The difference being, for the most part the problem with Eldar was a very limited handful of units that were strong. So in competitive games, people who spammed those units could do very well (if they also played well). IG... I don't recall people saying the "entire guard codex was undercosted", it was pretty much the CP generators being so cheap along with (again) a few strong units.
Space Marines... are currently so universally broken, that there's been articles about just how easy it's become to win with them. There was a goon article about how a bunch of complete nobodies turned up and won entire tournaments because the lists could just steamroll through anything. Of course, that's no longer a thing, because everyone knows those lists and there's a bunch of them in each tournament.
It's not even that I dislike the new marine codex. I think it's decent, got a lot of variety, and pretty much all of it is viable. Which is great.
Problem is that every other army doesn't have the same kind of codex. Not even close.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 19:47:27
Yes of course, only those elite eldar players with their few rare units should be allowed to win tournaments. Heaven forbid someone buys two or three starter sets and gets a tournament worthy army out of it. How could one even rival the skill levels one had to achive playing a double dipping Inari army or a 6-7 flyers list.
And with majority of people playing marines, it is also the most natural thing for minority played armies to be always the OP ones. Nothing helps the game grow and be fun, then a minority bullying a majority.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Yes of course, only those elite eldar players with their few rare units should be allowed to win tournaments. Heaven forbid someone buys two or three starter sets and gets a tournament worthy army out of it. How could one even rival the skill levels one had to achive playing a double dipping Inari army or a 6-7 flyers list.
And with majority of people playing marines, it is also the most natural thing for minority played armies to be always the OP ones. Nothing helps the game grow and be fun, then a minority bullying a majority.
Wasn;t Iron Hands a "miniority army" -was that ok? cos it was Marines.
Broken is broken - what Army, race , faction or subfaction that it belongs to is irelevant.
Eldar Cheese Serpents were broken and revilied and now so are Eradicators - both times we also had people saying:
Wait till the rules offically come out
Wait till the Codex
Wait till the FAqs Wait till they have been played abit.
Wait
Wait
Wait
And wierdly often the people with those models and those armies.
Broken is Broken - needs fixing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 20:06:35
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Well that maths is off, you missed DDD so it's 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, gives you 5 damage, so still worse but not that far off.
You can give orks a strat to proc the ddd on a 5+, you can give them a +1 strat with 1 klan, you can make them fire twice. Does this offset doctrines and salamander buffs? Probably not goven it has an inherent cost. Then again tankbustas get the luxury of firing out a transport.
7 shots with Dakkax3 = 2.33 hits and 1.16 DDD re-rolls for another .38 hits so 2.71. Reroll the 4.67 misses for another 1.5 hits with .77 DDD which results in a further .25 hits. Grand total 4.46 hits with DDD.
You can give a unit a 5+ chance to proc DDD for 2CP, you can get another stratagem to shoot again but only if you take Badmoons which is something you really do not want to use and you can get +1 to hit if you are playing as Freeboota's but only if you kill something first.
Also, you can't use any of those stratagems if in a vehicle, plus if we are going to be giving Tankbustas a 65-135pt transport I think its fair to include other buffs for those eradicators which again, moves the goal posts and puts them well and truly above Tankbustas.
Last note on the luxurious transport, T6 with a 4+ save isn't exactly durable in an edition where Eradicators are actively being argued against as "balanced"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 20:17:28
Racerguy180 wrote: how so? it sure seems these problems arise from the type of play that fosters such "gaming".
if you're scared of single squad of Eradicators, I really dont know what to tell you. If your scared of someone spamming 3 full squads, that's a game type(feth you lists) problem. How do you deal with such a ridiculously OP unit? Probably the same way you deal with any other, prepare for it or dont.
If your saying you don't have the capability to deal with it, then that may be a problem. which will probably be addressed by the codex'. Until then, I guess either suck it up and fight on...or dont.(which is always an option). Did you refuse games against Taudar, Gman Razorbacks, Castellans? Or did you play against them?
If your saying you have the capacity to handle it, I fail to see how they're a problem?
Racerguy, i'm sure you are a chill guy and a lot of fun to play against, but your mindset of For Fun only games and house rules is completely irrelevant to the point of this entire thread.
There is a large and vibrant community of competitive players and tournament players. But even ignoring that, discussing balance is just good for the game. Every edition, heck, every release there are guys similar to you who argue against balance and nerfs/buffs because "who cares, just house rule" or some other similar argument. And there isn't anything wrong with that in your own meta i'm sure. However, in the competitive meta it is important and that will even trickle down to your friendly meta by simply making games more balanced which is a lot more fun. Saying units don't need to be balanced is just bad for the game in general.
but why should anything that's from tournaments(spamming units, wombocombo gotchas)trickle down to fun metas? all that serves is to make fun metas more tourney like, which as far as I can tell, isnt wanted? the only people who want that are people playing in tournament metas.
kinda weird when the most fun games I've ever had I've been at a disadvantage i.e. unbalanced.
I still dont understand why 3models are soooooo OP? o wait when you take 3 full squads(spamming) they're an issue.
But if you guys are so competitive im sure you can figure out a way to deal with it? cuz isnt that the point of feth you lists, either deal with it or dont? Do you just concede when you see them in your opponents list? Or is it that in needing to prepare for this one unit you need to skew the rest of your armys list for it? which would then make it more difficult to deal with other factions?
Take a Space Marine army using only 1 of each unit and play against any other army only take 1 of each unit (ignore troops if you think that changes anything) and tell me how it goes. I bet the Marine player gets to take a lot more 'good' units then whatever they are facing and they will likely handily win because of the plethora of good units in the current Space Marine arsenal compared to everyone else having only a handful in total in their codex. (if they even get to a handful).
Spam isn't the issue with things like Eradicators, its a symptom of the issue. Them being utterly undercosted.
Pretending its somehow balanced if you only take 1 unit is sticking your fingers in your ear and shout nanananananananaanCan'tHearYou.
undercosted units are undercosted. regardless of how many you take.
can you explain to me how if you only take one its OP?
Well that maths is off, you missed DDD so it's 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, gives you 5 damage, so still worse but not that far off.
You can give orks a strat to proc the ddd on a 5+, you can give them a +1 strat with 1 klan, you can make them fire twice. Does this offset doctrines and salamander buffs? Probably not goven it has an inherent cost. Then again tankbustas get the luxury of firing out a transport.
7 shots with Dakkax3 = 2.33 hits and 1.16 DDD re-rolls for another .38 hits so 2.71. Reroll the 4.67 misses for another 1.5 hits with .77 DDD which results in a further .25 hits. Grand total 4.46 hits with DDD.
You can give a unit a 5+ chance to proc DDD for 2CP, you can get another stratagem to shoot again but only if you take Badmoons which is something you really do not want to use and you can get +1 to hit if you are playing as Freeboota's but only if you kill something first.
Also, you can't use any of those stratagems if in a vehicle, plus if we are going to be giving Tankbustas a 65-135pt transport I think its fair to include other buffs for those eradicators which again, moves the goal posts and puts them well and truly above Tankbustas.
Last note on the luxurious transport, T6 with a 4+ save isn't exactly durable in an edition where Eradicators are actively being argued against as "balanced"
Just the maths because I can, 2.333 hits, another 1.555 off the rerolls. 0.648 hits from DDD, 0.432 from DDD reroll. Total of 4.969.
Yeah Tankbustas are worse than eradicators, thats a given, eradicators are too good/cheap, but they're not lightyears behind in terms of output, they're probably about right really.
Just the maths because I can, 2.333 hits, another 1.555 off the rerolls. 0.648 hits from DDD, 0.432 from DDD reroll. Total of 4.969.
Yeah Tankbustas are worse than eradicators, thats a given, eradicators are too good/cheap, but they're not lightyears behind in terms of output, they're probably about right really.
2.33 hits = 1.16 6s which is .38 extra hits from DDD not .64 hits. rerolls nets you 4.67 shots which gets 1.55 hits and .77 DDD rerolls which is .25ish extra hits. I rounded the numbers but it works out to about 4.5 hits, not 4.969
DDD procs on 6s and allows you to shoot 1 extra shot for a .33% chance of a hit.
Tankbustas are incredibly weak compared to Eradicators and that is before you get into strats and aura buffs. Again, if they are considered OK (I think they are over priced) then Eradicators are a different level of OP Output wise they are worse, durability they are worse, synergy wise they are worse etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote: can you explain to me how if you only take one its OP?
A unit is OP or it is not. Taking 1 or 100, it doesn't change the fact that the unit is itself OP.
Scatterbikes were OP in 7th, didn't matter if you took 1 squad of them or 6.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 20:55:52
Just the maths because I can, 2.333 hits, another 1.555 off the rerolls. 0.648 hits from DDD, 0.432 from DDD reroll. Total of 4.969.
Yeah Tankbustas are worse than eradicators, thats a given, eradicators are too good/cheap, but they're not lightyears behind in terms of output, they're probably about right really.
2.33 hits = 1.16 6s which is .38 extra hits from DDD not .64 hits. rerolls nets you 4.67 shots which gets 1.55 hits and .77 DDD rerolls which is .25ish extra hits. I rounded the numbers but it works out to about 4.5 hits, not 4.969
DDD procs on 6s and allows you to shoot 1 extra shot for a .33% chance of a hit.
Tankbustas are incredibly weak compared to Eradicators and that is before you get into strats and aura buffs. Again, if they are considered OK (I think they are over priced) then Eradicators are a different level of OP Output wise they are worse, durability they are worse, synergy wise they are worse etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote: can you explain to me how if you only take one its OP?
A unit is OP or it is not. Taking 1 or 100, it doesn't change the fact that the unit is itself OP.
Scatterbikes were OP in 7th, didn't matter if you took 1 squad of them or 6.
Did one squad ever win the game? or was it spamming that's the issue? im pretty sure there is a huge difference between 1 squad and 6. so how is one squad OP, what makes them sooooo ridiculous? would you rather face 6 squads or just 1? If the possibility of taking 6 squads is the problem, the unit itself isnt OP, the ability to take that many would be the problem, which is a playstyle issue not a unit issue.
So how is the unit by itself OP? it that one single unit gonna win the game for you? they're fething 3 dudes, if 3 dudes win the game by themselves, then it is a unit issue.
If you guys are losing games due to a single unit, I really dont know what to tell you?
Racerguy180 wrote: Did one squad ever win the game? or was it spamming that's the issue? im pretty sure there is a huge difference between 1 squad and 6. so how is one squad OP, what makes them sooooo ridiculous? would you rather face 6 squads or just 1? If the possibility of taking 6 squads is the problem, the unit itself isnt OP, the ability to take that many would be the problem, which is a playstyle issue not a unit issue.
So how is the unit by itself OP? it that one single unit gonna win the game for you? they're fething 3 dudes, if 3 dudes win the game by themselves, then it is a unit issue.
If you guys are losing games due to a single unit, I really dont know what to tell you?
For a casual player who detests "Feth you" lists. you sure are ok with a unit being OP so long as you only take 1 of them.
They are over powered because they are significantly better then any unit of similar type in the game. They cost less, do more damage and have more staying power. They have better rules and interactions and stratagems. That is what makes them OP.
The unit is OP, taking 1 of them doesn't make them not OP, spamming a maximum amount just makes the power imbalance that much more noticeable.
Just the maths because I can, 2.333 hits, another 1.555 off the rerolls. 0.648 hits from DDD, 0.432 from DDD reroll. Total of 4.969.
Yeah Tankbustas are worse than eradicators, thats a given, eradicators are too good/cheap, but they're not lightyears behind in terms of output, they're probably about right really.
2.33 hits = 1.16 6s which is .38 extra hits from DDD not .64 hits. rerolls nets you 4.67 shots which gets 1.55 hits and .77 DDD rerolls which is .25ish extra hits. I rounded the numbers but it works out to about 4.5 hits, not 4.969
DDD procs on 6s and allows you to shoot 1 extra shot for a .33% chance of a hit.
Tankbustas are incredibly weak compared to Eradicators and that is before you get into strats and aura buffs. Again, if they are considered OK (I think they are over priced) then Eradicators are a different level of OP Output wise they are worse, durability they are worse, synergy wise they are worse etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote: can you explain to me how if you only take one its OP?
A unit is OP or it is not. Taking 1 or 100, it doesn't change the fact that the unit is itself OP.
Scatterbikes were OP in 7th, didn't matter if you took 1 squad of them or 6.
Did one squad ever win the game? or was it spamming that's the issue? im pretty sure there is a huge difference between 1 squad and 6. so how is one squad OP, what makes them sooooo ridiculous? would you rather face 6 squads or just 1? If the possibility of taking 6 squads is the problem, the unit itself isnt OP, the ability to take that many would be the problem, which is a playstyle issue not a unit issue.
So how is the unit by itself OP? it that one single unit gonna win the game for you? they're fething 3 dudes, if 3 dudes win the game by themselves, then it is a unit issue.
If you guys are losing games due to a single unit, I really dont know what to tell you?
So balance matters not, OP units don't matter?
If its much much better than equivalents as has repeatedly been proven on this thread then its bad for the game - if you can't understand that then "i dont know what to tell you"
...And friend maybe consider that if you are a lone voice shown with facts what the issue is that you ignore - then maybe consider the problem is not everyone else....but you.
And answer me this - WHY do you want OP units to exist?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 21:42:45
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Just the maths because I can, 2.333 hits, another 1.555 off the rerolls. 0.648 hits from DDD, 0.432 from DDD reroll. Total of 4.969.
Yeah Tankbustas are worse than eradicators, thats a given, eradicators are too good/cheap, but they're not lightyears behind in terms of output, they're probably about right really.
2.33 hits = 1.16 6s which is .38 extra hits from DDD not .64 hits. rerolls nets you 4.67 shots which gets 1.55 hits and .77 DDD rerolls which is .25ish extra hits. I rounded the numbers but it works out to about 4.5 hits, not 4.969
DDD procs on 6s and allows you to shoot 1 extra shot for a .33% chance of a hit.
Tankbustas are incredibly weak compared to Eradicators and that is before you get into strats and aura buffs. Again, if they are considered OK (I think they are over priced) then Eradicators are a different level of OP Output wise they are worse, durability they are worse, synergy wise they are worse etc etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote: can you explain to me how if you only take one its OP?
A unit is OP or it is not. Taking 1 or 100, it doesn't change the fact that the unit is itself OP.
Scatterbikes were OP in 7th, didn't matter if you took 1 squad of them or 6.
I found it easier to group the ddds together from both the first rolls and the rerolls on the normal attacks, then work the 2ish extra shots out after as 1 set.
Did one squad ever win the game? or was it spamming that's the issue? im pretty sure there is a huge difference between 1 squad and 6. so how is one squad OP, what makes them sooooo ridiculous? would you rather face 6 squads or just 1? If the possibility of taking 6 squads is the problem, the unit itself isnt OP, the ability to take that many would be the problem, which is a playstyle issue not a unit issue.
So how is the unit by itself OP? it that one single unit gonna win the game for you? they're fething 3 dudes, if 3 dudes win the game by themselves, then it is a unit issue.
If you guys are losing games due to a single unit, I really dont know what to tell you?
A unit is either OP or it isn't. One unit is OP, 3 are much, much worse because when a unit is OP it tends to get increasing returns rather than diminishing returns when you run multiples. I'm sure most armies could probably deal with 1 unit, but that doesn't alter the fact that they are disproportionately good for their points - their offense is absurd for the points they cost and their defense is very good too.
It's not even about losing or winning against 1 or 3 units of them, it's simply about how powerful the unit is compared to its cost. The entire thread explains this, it's genuinely puzzling you don't seem to understand the problem if you've read the whole thing.
Racerguy180 wrote: Did one squad ever win the game? or was it spamming that's the issue? im pretty sure there is a huge difference between 1 squad and 6. so how is one squad OP, what makes them sooooo ridiculous? would you rather face 6 squads or just 1? If the possibility of taking 6 squads is the problem, the unit itself isnt OP, the ability to take that many would be the problem, which is a playstyle issue not a unit issue.
So how is the unit by itself OP? it that one single unit gonna win the game for you? they're fething 3 dudes, if 3 dudes win the game by themselves, then it is a unit issue.
If you guys are losing games due to a single unit, I really dont know what to tell you?
For a casual player who detests "Feth you" lists. you sure are ok with a unit being OP so long as you only take 1 of them.
They are over powered because they are significantly better then any unit of similar type in the game. They cost less, do more damage and have more staying power. They have better rules and interactions and stratagems. That is what makes them OP.
The unit is OP, taking 1 of them doesn't make them not OP, spamming a maximum amount just makes the power imbalance that much more noticeable.
One of them isnt OP, it won't win the game by its mere presence alone.
I'm ok with taking them irrespective of their rules. Cuz, ya know they fit my army. I was gonna use them as soon as I saw them, BEFORE THEIR RULES WERE KNOWN and I will continue to take them when they get inevitably nerfed due to how abusive competitive players complain about them.
Let's not take a the only melta(primaris) unit in a Salamanders list, might as well do the same for my bloody rose, oh and I'll toss out all those flamers while I'm at it then. Cuz apparently thematic units that so happen to be good(when spammed to the gills) have zero reason to be in an army that makes extensive use of meltas.
Racerguy180 wrote: Did one squad ever win the game? or was it spamming that's the issue? im pretty sure there is a huge difference between 1 squad and 6. so how is one squad OP, what makes them sooooo ridiculous? would you rather face 6 squads or just 1? If the possibility of taking 6 squads is the problem, the unit itself isnt OP, the ability to take that many would be the problem, which is a playstyle issue not a unit issue.
So how is the unit by itself OP? it that one single unit gonna win the game for you? they're fething 3 dudes, if 3 dudes win the game by themselves, then it is a unit issue.
If you guys are losing games due to a single unit, I really dont know what to tell you?
For a casual player who detests "Feth you" lists. you sure are ok with a unit being OP so long as you only take 1 of them.
They are over powered because they are significantly better then any unit of similar type in the game. They cost less, do more damage and have more staying power. They have better rules and interactions and stratagems. That is what makes them OP.
The unit is OP, taking 1 of them doesn't make them not OP, spamming a maximum amount just makes the power imbalance that much more noticeable.
One of them isnt OP, it won't win the game by its mere presence alone.
I'm ok with taking them irrespective of their rules. Cuz, ya know they fit my army. I was gonna use them as soon as I saw them, BEFORE THEIR RULES WERE KNOWN and I will continue to take them when they get inevitably nerfed due to how abusive competitive players complain about them.
Let's not take a the only melta(primaris) unit in a Salamanders list, might as well do the same for my bloody rose, oh and I'll toss out all those flamers while I'm at it then. Cuz apparently thematic units that so happen to be good(when spammed to the gills) have zero reason to be in an army that makes extensive use of meltas.
No one has said they aren't fluffy-but fluffy doesn't mean bad.
A unit being OP, in this case, is true whether you have one squad or three. It's not as overbearing with just one, but it's still far too killy and durable for its points, without really sacrificing anything.
Name a unit that, as of right now (you know, the game we're currently playing, not a hypothetical future gamestate where they've been nerfed or Fire Dragons got a buff) fills the same or similar role as well as Eradicators for their points.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
One of them isnt OP, it won't win the game by its mere presence alone.
I'm ok with taking them irrespective of their rules. Cuz, ya know they fit my army. I was gonna use them as soon as I saw them, BEFORE THEIR RULES WERE KNOWN and I will continue to take them when they get inevitably nerfed due to how abusive competitive players complain about them.
Let's not take a the only melta(primaris) unit in a Salamanders list, might as well do the same for my bloody rose, oh and I'll toss out all those flamers while I'm at it then. Cuz apparently thematic units that so happen to be good(when spammed to the gills) have zero reason to be in an army that makes extensive use of meltas.
Nobody here is accusing you of purposely buying them to be TFG or a WAAC. but at the same time. Would nerfing Eradicators really break your heart? No? Then DONT WORRY ABOUT IT.
Racerguy-is your definition of OP "Wins the game by itself when included at all"?
Because that seems like an awfully narrow metric. Let's say a unit costs, I dunno... 120 points, when it would be better costed at 180. If it's not a Troop unit, you can take three at most, meaning that you spend 360 when you should be spending 540. That's 180 points "saved", and nearly 10% of a 2k list. But if that's your ONLY overpowered unit, and everything else is costed correctly, will that 10% guarantee you victory?
Of course not-skill and luck matter more than a small handicap. A 10% bonus is reasonably hefty-it'd certainly make the match easier-but it won't GUARANTEE you victory.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Daedalus81 wrote:I wonder how much the perception of eradicators would change if their range was 12/15/18" instead.
To me, one of the biggest issues is their long range. I like the idea that melta weapons usually sit between flamers and plasma in terms of range. I kinda always view them as a sort of microwave shotgun type weapon and want their rules to fill that area as 40k has a shockingly low amount of shotguns for my taste. I think 18" is good range for them as it makes it difficult to get the half range bonus without some maneuver or additional effort.
I'm ok with taking them irrespective of their rules. .
Then you shouldn't mind if their rules change or their points increase.
I want to take my Eradicators most games as well irrespective of rules too. I agree they are over powered and/or under pointed right now. I don't really it being feasible to fix them via points though. As it stands, I doubt I will ever actually get to shoot with them if I allow my opponent even the slightest chance to kill them beforehand. At the same time, I don't want to be burdened with multiple squads just have them be more than a distraction carnifex. I think keeping the datasheet as is puts them on a knife's edge of either being too good for their points or too many points to bother fielding them as anything more than a suicide unit.
I would much rather see their range go down to 18" and drop the shoot twice ability. Or at very least, change it from shoot twice to re-roll 1s to hit if shooting at the same target. Which according to some in this thread Eradicators basically already have anyways so might as well make it a redundant ability. I also wouldn't mind them being taken in squads of up to six as I think that is a good size, for lack of a better word, symmetry for heavy Primaris infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 23:39:25
which again, moves the goal posts and puts them well and truly above Tankbustas. 