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Well no marine list can be all lists at once. So I don't see your point. Realistically though. If you are good at killing salamanders - you are good at killing ultramarines. It makes basically no difference. They share the same units.
Just a hint though...ALL MARINES ARE WEAK VS TAU AND ELDAR (CWE AND DRAKARI) Quinns do quite nicely too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Helverins average to 8 shots.
16/3 hits
32/9 wounds
16/9 failed saves
Which is 1-2 dead Gravis models... unless they have a FNP. Such as being Iron Hands, or near a Chief Apothecary. That DRASTICALLY reduces damage.
Cheif apoth is nice but it is only a 3 inch aura - 3 inch auras are actaully limiting. Ironhands is nice but WEAK AF super doctrine.
Choas can get around this though with infernals hevlrines for +1 damage. That is the only way I play Choas knights. Infernals or go home.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/10 20:58:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Xenomancers wrote: Cheif apoth is nice but it is only a 3 inch aura - 3 inch auras are actaully limiting. Ironhands is nice but WEAK AF super doctrine.
Xenomancers wrote: Cheif apoth is nice but it is only a 3 inch aura - 3 inch auras are actaully limiting. Ironhands is nice but WEAK AF super doctrine.
Father of the Future is a 6" aura.
To be fair to Xeno there's a ton of bloat and I only remember there being a relic with a 3" range and any of the Warlord Traits you'd want you're gonna waste a CP to get.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
It isn’t, but how is having 10-15 workable relics close to the 65 in your original statement? Don't try and mislead or warp a fact to suit an argument.
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
It isn’t, but how is having 10-15 workable relics close to the 65 in your original statement? Don't try and mislead or warp a fact to suit an argument.
7 isn't close to 13 either, I was comparing whole factions, SM vs Necrons, not sub-factions Mephrit vs Ultramarines. SM have nothing to whine about in regards to relics.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/11 10:30:36
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
It isn’t, but how is having 10-15 workable relics close to the 65 in your original statement? Don't try and mislead or warp a fact to suit an argument.
7 isn't close to 13 either, I was comparing whole factions, SM vs Necrons, not sub-factions Mephrit vs Ultramarines. SM have nothing to whine about in regards to relics.
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
It isn’t, but how is having 10-15 workable relics close to the 65 in your original statement? Don't try and mislead or warp a fact to suit an argument.
7 isn't close to 13 either, I was comparing whole factions, SM vs Necrons, not sub-factions Mephrit vs Ultramarines. SM have nothing to whine about in regards to relics.
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
It isn’t, but how is having 10-15 workable relics close to the 65 in your original statement? Don't try and mislead or warp a fact to suit an argument.
7 isn't close to 13 either, I was comparing whole factions, SM vs Necrons, not sub-factions Mephrit vs Ultramarines. SM have nothing to whine about in regards to relics.
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
That is whining about the 130+ Relics not being universally viable when my faction has under 15 which are not universally viable either.
You get a new codex in 4-7 weeks, I'm sure there'll be more. But yeah you're right that is a complaint in response to a pointless jab. Let's not get caught in a spiral of pointless complaining either way.
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
How is it worse that half of your 130 Relics are useless instead of half of your 13 Relics are useless?
Well, any detachment will be limited to 20-something, it's not like your ironhands captain has a raven guard relic and salamander warlord trait.
Nor does a Mephrit Overlord get a Sautekh relic and a Novokh WL trait. How is having 30 relics, half of which are useless worse than having 7 relics, half of which are useless?
It isn’t, but how is having 10-15 workable relics close to the 65 in your original statement? Don't try and mislead or warp a fact to suit an argument.
7 isn't close to 13 either, I was comparing whole factions, SM vs Necrons, not sub-factions Mephrit vs Ultramarines. SM have nothing to whine about in regards to relics.
Argive wrote: Must be nice having so many relics, and trait options you cant even remember them all...
It really isn't because the balance is so gakky most might as well not exist.
That is whining about the 130+ Relics not being universally viable when my faction has under 15 which are not universally viable either.
Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Xenomancers wrote: Cheif apoth is nice but it is only a 3 inch aura - 3 inch auras are actaully limiting. Ironhands is nice but WEAK AF super doctrine.
Father of the Future is a 6" aura.
Well If that is the case I have been self nerfing it. Been using cheif apoth with my ultras for some time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/11 14:41:07
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I think its fair enough to say that by doing the same old thing Tau can *compete* with Marines - and I think this fact was weirdly overlooked when the great and the good cast their over 9th and declared dead faction, bad, unplayable, doomed...
But they are still clearly worse than they were in 8th, which raises a lot of problems against *other* lists, while Marines are still walking over everyone.
Similar story with DE. Bad faction is generally bad, but there are a few tools that are good in a very marine-dominated meta, so the stats suggest not entirely screwed.
CWE look awful.
Loyalist Dogs maybe, but for Night Lords it's the other way around. We Have Come For the fishie, fishie, fishies.....
Its even worse for chaos actually - they are more melee focused. There isn't a lot of melee going on vs tau.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.
I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.
Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.
Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.
I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.
Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.
Exactly, sure many relics arent playable competitively but they sure are fun to stick on your character to give him flavor. giving The Red axe to a Dominus isnt a strong choice, but its hella cool when you realise your dominus like to examinate his enemies.... up close.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/11 15:08:28
Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.
I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.
Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.
Exactly, sure many relics arent playable competitively but they sure are fun to stick on your character to give him flavor. giving The Red axe to a Dominus isnt a strong choice, but its hella cool when you realise your dominus like to examinate his enemies.... up close.
How do you see the drones? Choas lacks the ILOS needed to beat tau. Marine builds were spaming TFC which is now heavily nerfed along with ironhands (no more stay in dev doct all game) No more chappy dread ether. Then we had covid and the data stops.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
if i dont see the drones i just shoot the tides directly. Either he lets the dmg 1's go through or he transfers them to the drones. When you have 32 5 -1 1 shots coming at you, i win either way.
I havnt lost to tau in ages. they have gak board control. Sure they will inflict heavy casualties to me but i'll win on the mission.
Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.
I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.
Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.
Exactly, sure many relics arent playable competitively but they sure are fun to stick on your character to give him flavor. giving The Red axe to a Dominus isnt a strong choice, but its hella cool when you realise your dominus like to examinate his enemies.... up close.
How do you see the drones? Choas lacks the ILOS needed to beat tau. Marine builds were spaming TFC which is now heavily nerfed along with ironhands (no more stay in dev doct all game) No more chappy dread ether. Then we had covid and the data stops.
Don't need to. Vox Scream doesn't require LOS, and turns off savior protocols. Then I just feed the Gundam plasma, lascannons, and accelerator cannon rounds.
VladimirHerzog wrote: if i dont see the drones i just shoot the tides directly. Either he lets the dmg 1's go through or he transfers them to the drones. When you have 32 5 -1 1 shots coming at you, i win either way.
I havnt lost to tau in ages. they have gak board control. Sure they will inflict heavy casualties to me but i'll win on the mission.
You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.
you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
VladimirHerzog wrote: if i dont see the drones i just shoot the tides directly. Either he lets the dmg 1's go through or he transfers them to the drones. When you have 32 5 -1 1 shots coming at you, i win either way.
I havnt lost to tau in ages. they have gak board control. Sure they will inflict heavy casualties to me but i'll win on the mission.
You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.
you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it
It's difficult to gain cover for a Riptide.
And, assuming a Lord or Prince for RR1s, it takes...
162 BS3+ S5 AP-1 D1 shots.
But, as you're so fond of pointing out, Chaos relies on wombo-combos, so let's take a single Havoc squad with a Lord, Prescience and VotLW, shooting twice...
64 shots
2,240/36 or 560/9 hits
280/9 wounds
280/27 failed saves, for just over 10 damage.
Another singular Havoc squad can put 32 shots downrange, getting 24-25 hits, 8 or so wounds, and a good chance of finishing off the Riptide.
Now, I'm fully in agreement that you should not be able to buff up a singular squad to that monstrous level, and Havocs and other CSM units should be good on their own without so much crazy buff-stacking.
But we're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about the game as it is.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Eldar- 4436 pts
