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Its also harder to hide drones this edition compared to last edition.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.

I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.

Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.

Then the person complaining that there's 100 relics available to Marines shouldn't be complaining about usability with their 15. There are clearly more duds than hits, and that really cannot be disputed. Adding units or weapons only matters when they get used or at minimum have a broad purpose.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if i dont see the drones i just shoot the tides directly. Either he lets the dmg 1's go through or he transfers them to the drones. When you have 32 5 -1 1 shots coming at you, i win either way.

I havnt lost to tau in ages. they have gak board control. Sure they will inflict heavy casualties to me but i'll win on the mission.

You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.

you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it

It's difficult to gain cover for a Riptide.

And, assuming a Lord or Prince for RR1s, it takes...

162 BS3+ S5 AP-1 D1 shots.

But, as you're so fond of pointing out, Chaos relies on wombo-combos, so let's take a single Havoc squad with a Lord, Prescience and VotLW, shooting twice...

64 shots
2,240/36 or 560/9 hits
280/9 wounds
280/27 failed saves, for just over 10 damage.

Another singular Havoc squad can put 32 shots downrange, getting 24-25 hits, 8 or so wounds, and a good chance of finishing off the Riptide.

Now, I'm fully in agreement that you should not be able to buff up a singular squad to that monstrous level, and Havocs and other CSM units should be good on their own without so much crazy buff-stacking.
But we're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about the game as it is.

24" range...< 36" range. Havoc squads are all dead turn 1. Sure - that might be one of the better units to dumb damage 1 into a riptide - no one actually takes those units though. Havocs will almost always be lascannons if they are even taken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Its also harder to hide drones this edition compared to last edition.

That might be true on some tables...you still have to physically see a drone to shoot it. You can even block it with your models.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.

you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it

Riptides cannot get light cover (neither Monsters nor Battlesuits can gain the benefit of terrain cover, which is presently the only way for them to get to a 1+ armor save outside of Dal'yth Sept, which nobody runs because its abjectly terrible in 9th). The only way they can gain dense cover is through a very specific terrain placement which is highly table dependent.

"Top Tau" lists arent for a moment doing "really well". But facts have never got in the way of your histrionics before, so why start now?

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.

you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it

Riptides cannot get light cover (Monsters can never gain the benefit of terrain cover, which is presently the only way for them to get to a 1+ armor save outside of Dal'yth Sept, which nobody runs because its abjectly terrible in 9th). The only way they can gain dense cover is through a very specific terrain placement which is highly table dependent.

"Top Tau" lists arent for a moment doing "really well". But facts have never got in the way of your histrionics before, so why start now?

Actually dakka is just really good at ignoring statistical trends....
Tau actually are doing really well right now. You cant argue with facts.

I went over both scenarios...at best is a 3++ (covering both 8th and 9th eddition)

Gotta love dakka...like literally the only place in the world you actually have to argue the fact that tau and eldar are strong against marines...LOL. Only guess is none of you have actually played against Tau after their PA supplement made them uber bonkers.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if i dont see the drones i just shoot the tides directly. Either he lets the dmg 1's go through or he transfers them to the drones. When you have 32 5 -1 1 shots coming at you, i win either way.

I havnt lost to tau in ages. they have gak board control. Sure they will inflict heavy casualties to me but i'll win on the mission.

You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.

you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it

It's difficult to gain cover for a Riptide.

And, assuming a Lord or Prince for RR1s, it takes...

162 BS3+ S5 AP-1 D1 shots.

But, as you're so fond of pointing out, Chaos relies on wombo-combos, so let's take a single Havoc squad with a Lord, Prescience and VotLW, shooting twice...

64 shots
2,240/36 or 560/9 hits
280/9 wounds
280/27 failed saves, for just over 10 damage.

Another singular Havoc squad can put 32 shots downrange, getting 24-25 hits, 8 or so wounds, and a good chance of finishing off the Riptide.

Now, I'm fully in agreement that you should not be able to buff up a singular squad to that monstrous level, and Havocs and other CSM units should be good on their own without so much crazy buff-stacking.
But we're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about the game as it is.

Ain't nobody taking two CC havoc squads. Maybe when they're W2, but they'll die just as fast to HBCs. Maybe in a drill, but that style of play doesn't do well in 9th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You don't actually. Tides have 1+ save in cover and are t7 with 14 wounds. You could shoot them all day with 1 damage weapons and they will survive the whole game. At the very best you are wounding on 5's with a 3+ save for the rip and they can heal d3 every turn. You are losing this war of attrition again tau firepower - EVERY TIME.

you only have board control for a few turns until your whole army is gone and that only maters if there is a central objective they can't see. Top tau lists are doing really well by the looks of it

Riptides cannot get light cover (Monsters can never gain the benefit of terrain cover, which is presently the only way for them to get to a 1+ armor save outside of Dal'yth Sept, which nobody runs because its abjectly terrible in 9th). The only way they can gain dense cover is through a very specific terrain placement which is highly table dependent.

"Top Tau" lists arent for a moment doing "really well". But facts have never got in the way of your histrionics before, so why start now?

Actually dakka is just really good at ignoring statistical trends....
Tau actually are doing really well right now. You cant argue with facts.

I went over both scenarios...at best is a 3++ (covering both 8th and 9th eddition)

Gotta love dakka...like literally the only place in the world you actually have to argue the fact that tau and eldar are strong against marines...LOL. Only guess is none of you have actually played against Tau after their PA supplement made them uber bonkers.

If Tau are doing "Really Well" please provide the tournaments they have won or even placed top 3 in since 9th dropped?

Fairly sure they are one of the few factions that have NOT had a top three finish in a GT.

That list as far as I am aware reads as
TAU
GSC
Nids
Eldar
AdMech
Imperial Knights
Choas Knights

Your ability to claim you know the game better than the top players and yet refuse to provide any evidence to back your supposed genius up is really telling.

Fine some Taudar bad touched you 2 editions ago get over it and stop labeling codex's are the boogy man when they aren't.

It's a little early to even care about these tournament results considering no armies have gotten their 9th eddition codex updates yet...it's kinda like caring who wins preseason games in football. It can show a trend though or give you a reason to be optimistic. To be fair - there is not enough data to say tau are doing well right now. Top 3 is an extremely arbitrary number too. Normally we look at like...top 10...top 20...or maybe even top 4 - top 3 why?

What is your source of data btw? 40kstats? they have like 5 tournmanets worth of data on their data page...theres probably been 50 ITC tournaments in the states since the rules dropped. Id love to see this info at a glance.

 Xenomancers wrote:
24" range...< 36" range. Havoc squads are all dead turn 1. Sure - that might be one of the better units to dumb damage 1 into a riptide - no one actually takes those units though. Havocs will almost always be lascannons if they are even taken.

You WILL outflank the havocs so they can do their one turn punch then die like they always do.
chaincannon havocs is the most popular loadout by far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's a little early to even care about these tournament results considering no armies have gotten their 9th eddition codex updates yet...it's kinda like caring who wins preseason games in football. It can show a trend though or give you a reason to be optimistic. To be fair - there is not enough data to say tau are doing well right now. Top 3 is an extremely arbitrary number too. Normally we look at like...top 10...top 20...or maybe even top 4 - top 3 why?

What is your source of data btw? 40kstats? they have like 5 tournmanets worth of data on their data page...theres probably been 50 ITC tournaments in the states since the rules dropped. Id love to see this info at a glance.

So when you claim that tau are doing well what do you use as a reference point? their ability to dish out damage and tabling their opponents?
Because if we cant use torunament results to claim theyre in a bad spot, you sure as hell can't use them either.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's a little early to even care about these tournament results considering no armies have gotten their 9th eddition codex updates yet...it's kinda like caring who wins preseason games in football. It can show a trend though or give you a reason to be optimistic. To be fair - there is not enough data to say tau are doing well right now. Top 3 is an extremely arbitrary number too. Normally we look at like...top 10...top 20...or maybe even top 4 - top 3 why?

I genuinely enjoy that your response to "show us the data" is you flat out admitting that you dont have data to support your claim.

Also well done for again driving right past your massive rules errors undermining your entire argument.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Tau actually are doing really well right now. You cant argue with facts.

 Xenomancers wrote:


To be fair - there is not enough data to say tau are doing well right now.

That's some rapid goalpost shifting! 30 minutes between those two posts.

The consensus seems to be Tau are not as bad as initially thought but certainly aren't beating SM easily. The points changes to drones seems to have really hurt them it seems.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's a little early to even care about these tournament results considering no armies have gotten their 9th eddition codex updates yet...it's kinda like caring who wins preseason games in football. It can show a trend though or give you a reason to be optimistic. To be fair - there is not enough data to say tau are doing well right now. Top 3 is an extremely arbitrary number too. Normally we look at like...top 10...top 20...or maybe even top 4 - top 3 why?

I genuinely enjoy that your response to "show us the data" is you flat out admitting that you dont have data to support your claim.

Also well done for again driving right past your massive rules errors undermining your entire argument.

My response to show the data is we are likely both looking at the same fething data - 40kstats. Tau have a 52% WR equal to custodians...IDK if you are paying attention but custodians are dominant right now - I play at 3 clubs - it's all custodians. In my area they are winning basically every game they play. Yeah I see salamanders up there at the top - no surprise - Ultras at 54% surprising when alderai are near the bottom. This is like 4 25 man tournaments worth of data...if you have more please share it instead of doing what you are doing...which is like...Im not even sure what it is...seems like a personal attack more than anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Tau actually are doing really well right now. You cant argue with facts.

 Xenomancers wrote:


To be fair - there is not enough data to say tau are doing well right now.

That's some rapid goalpost shifting! 30 minutes between those two posts.

The consensus seems to be Tau are not as bad as initially thought but certainly aren't beating SM easily. The points changes to drones seems to have really hurt them it seems.

Let me clarify.
If small sets of data matter to you - you cant argue tau are doing well.
But small sets of data don't matter much. They can start to show a trend but it could be wrong.

Tau have only gotten better as a result of everyone else getting worse. Most armies saw point increases on their best units and they still use those units. Overall Tau make out like bandits being the only army that gets free overwatch in a cover heavy eddition and they have straight up ignore cover whenever they want it. Things like ghostkhells got worse...but that doesn't matter no one used ghostkeels. They don't have to spam 30-45 useless firewarriors anymore to get CP. Their new Relic weapons are insanely good.

 Xenomancers wrote:

My response to show the data is we are likely both looking at the same fething data - 40kstats. Tau have a 52% WR equal to custodians...IDK if you are paying attention but custodians are dominant right now - I play at 3 clubs - it's all custodians. In my area they are winning basically every game they play. Yeah I see salamanders up there at the top - no surprise - Ultras at 54% surprising when alderai are near the bottom. This is like 4 25 man tournaments worth of data...if you have more please share it instead of doing what you are doing...which is like...Im not even sure what it is...seems like a personal attack more than anything.

I'll make it easy on you:

https://www.goonhammer.com/category/competitive-play/

Show me a single instance of an organized 40k 9th edition event where Tau placed.

You cant, because it hasnt happened. Winrate as a metric is, once again, meaningless when those wins dont mean anything. We had this discussion in 8th. Apparently we need to have it again in 9th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tau have only gotten better as a result of everyone else getting worse. Most armies saw point increases on their best units and they still use those units. Overall Tau make out like bandits being the only army that gets free overwatch in a cover heavy eddition and they have straight up ignore cover whenever they want it. Things like ghostkhells got worse...but that doesn't matter no one used ghostkeels. They don't have to spam 30-45 useless firewarriors anymore to get CP. Their new Relic weapons are insanely good.

The number of completely inaccurate statements in this paragraph is staggering. Tau were one of the hardest hit armies by the shift to 9th. The combination of new terrain rules, alterations to fly, and points changes took the entire faction off at the knees. That you think they're somehow a god tier army is insane.

Once again, you're demonstrating that you dont know what the feth you're talking about. Not with regards to how this faction works. Not with regards to how 9th edition works. Not with regards to how simple outcomes work.

yeah, saying tau "made out like bandits" is ridiculous, they're one of the armies that saw their core strategy affected the most by the new edition.

Shield drones went up in pts so castling became harder.
The game is much more about mobility and board control than before, you NEED some sort of melee presence.
Fly got nerfed so now their strategy of "i can't be stopped from shooting" doesnt exist anymore.

He's only looking at the numbers on the guns and going full-on "bigger is better" mode.

Tau Empire are slightly above 50% WR in tournaments, slightly below 50% WR against SM. Asuryani are quite a bit below 50% WR in tournaments, but about 50% WR against SM. https://www.40kstats.com/faction-vs-faction

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.

I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.

Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.

Then the person complaining that there's 100 relics available to Marines shouldn't be complaining about usability with their 15. There are clearly more duds than hits, and that really cannot be disputed. Adding units or weapons only matters when they get used or at minimum have a broad purpose.

I think it's great that Marines have more than 130 Relics, it's the best kind of bloat, I don't have to read it before the game and then my opponent will have to announce them and I can have them read what they do to me, this takes a very short time, requires no homework and is a great fluff outlet. I was complaining about you saying that Marines having more than 130 Relics doesn't matter because half doesn't matter, the exact same reasoning can be used for a faction that has 13 Relics to say they actually only have half that amount, no matter how you spin that gacha SM come out ahead in terms of choices. Marines don't have 100% of the top 20 relics in the game, so other factions can compete in terms of efficiency, but not in terms of choice. The end of the matter is that it is nicer to have more than 130 Relics than less than 20 and whining about too many of them being bad is in bad taste, just like it's in bad taste to say Eradicators won't be OP with the new SM codex because SM will have more OP units by then, that's not how OP works.

It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.

There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.

There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.

There are...

15 Codex Relics
7 Relics per Supplement
8 Special-Issue Wargear per Supplement, but I believe the first 4 are always the same

With six Supplements, that's...

15 Codex+4 non-unique from Special Issue Wargear+(6*11 Relics and unique Special Issue Wargear per Supplement)=85 Relics to choose from.

So not quite 130, true.

But still a ridiculous number.

 vict0988 wrote:
Tau Empire are slightly above 50% WR in tournaments, slightly below 50% WR against SM. Asuryani are quite a bit below 50% WR in tournaments, but about 50% WR against SM. https://www.40kstats.com/faction-vs-faction

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Because it's putting rules on top of rules, which is bloat. If 4 relics for each other army are the only ones being used, whereas Marines get maybe a total of maybe 10-15 but have 8+ Supplements dedicated to it, what is that telling you? They're just throwing rules at a wall and hoping they stick.

I think they're just making things that seem fun or evocative to them and that other people might enjoy.

Not everyone is a min/maxer and taking a relic that fits that character of the army is a welcome option for those players.

Then the person complaining that there's 100 relics available to Marines shouldn't be complaining about usability with their 15. There are clearly more duds than hits, and that really cannot be disputed. Adding units or weapons only matters when they get used or at minimum have a broad purpose.

I think it's great that Marines have more than 130 Relics, it's the best kind of bloat, I don't have to read it before the game and then my opponent will have to announce them and I can have them read what they do to me, this takes a very short time, requires no homework and is a great fluff outlet. I was complaining about you saying that Marines having more than 130 Relics doesn't matter because half doesn't matter, the exact same reasoning can be used for a faction that has 13 Relics to say they actually only have half that amount, no matter how you spin that gacha SM come out ahead in terms of choices. Marines don't have 100% of the top 20 relics in the game, so other factions can compete in terms of efficiency, but not in terms of choice. The end of the matter is that it is nicer to have more than 130 Relics than less than 20 and whining about too many of them being bad is in bad taste, just like it's in bad taste to say Eradicators won't be OP with the new SM codex because SM will have more OP units by then, that's not how OP works.

Thats like saying extra Strats would be good and they added 10 more, except all of them are a variety of hitting and wounding bonuses against Meganobz.
It's ultra specific and doesn't really work for any game outside specifically tailored lists, so whats the point of it existing? Did Scars need a +1S banner with sources of rerolling to wound or bonuses to it? No, so why take that over the regular Relic to begin with!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a bit of hyperbole to say that marines are pawing through 130 relics.

There's 15 in the main book, 7 or so more in the supplement, and 8 or so special issue.

15+15*6+6+5*1=116 not including BA, DA, DW, GK or SW. Adeptus Astartes have over 130 relics between them. Necrons have less than 20 between them. There are far more Necron characters than SM characters in the galaxy, they have the tech to make better relics as well. While any on Chapter might have access to as "little" as 23, Necron Dynasties have access to as few as 6 and no more than 7. Sorry about using SM and Adeptus Astartes interchangeably, I'm just thinking it's the same thing in low and high gothic respectively, didn't mean to say Codex SM.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

My response to show the data is we are likely both looking at the same fething data - 40kstats. Tau have a 52% WR equal to custodians...IDK if you are paying attention but custodians are dominant right now - I play at 3 clubs - it's all custodians. In my area they are winning basically every game they play. Yeah I see salamanders up there at the top - no surprise - Ultras at 54% surprising when alderai are near the bottom. This is like 4 25 man tournaments worth of data...if you have more please share it instead of doing what you are doing...which is like...Im not even sure what it is...seems like a personal attack more than anything.

I'll make it easy on you:

https://www.goonhammer.com/category/competitive-play/

Show me a single instance of an organized 40k 9th edition event where Tau placed.

You cant, because it hasnt happened. Winrate as a metric is, once again, meaningless when those wins dont mean anything. We had this discussion in 8th. Apparently we need to have it again in 9th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tau have only gotten better as a result of everyone else getting worse. Most armies saw point increases on their best units and they still use those units. Overall Tau make out like bandits being the only army that gets free overwatch in a cover heavy eddition and they have straight up ignore cover whenever they want it. Things like ghostkhells got worse...but that doesn't matter no one used ghostkeels. They don't have to spam 30-45 useless firewarriors anymore to get CP. Their new Relic weapons are insanely good.

The number of completely inaccurate statements in this paragraph is staggering. Tau were one of the hardest hit armies by the shift to 9th. The combination of new terrain rules, alterations to fly, and points changes took the entire faction off at the knees. That you think they're somehow a god tier army is insane.

Once again, you're demonstrating that you dont know what the feth you're talking about. Not with regards to how this faction works. Not with regards to how 9th edition works. Not with regards to how simple outcomes work.

Wow so...you know by in large all vehicals got better right? so the fly nerf is superfluous to no -1 to hit on the move and now you can shoot into melee. Tau are virtually unchargable anyways...You really need to work on critical thinking. Units that move fast and have long ranged guns arent at risk of being charged...now they can move without pentalty for free...it's a buff. Before you were taking target lock or velocity tracker so your riptide could move and shoot. Now you are taking reroll shots on overwatch instead - so you overwatch better - while other units like a relic levithan have to pay to over-watch now...Like how many times are you gonna tell me I dont know what I am talking about...then you get completely owned? The only mention you make that actually makes sense is the change to cover. Tau doesn't like -1 to hits but it's also a blessing at the same time because there cant be worse than a -1.

LOL WR doesn't matter.

@Xeno, you saying in your reply that you "owned him" is maximum cringe.

Tau still have the same problem as before where they need to stay tightly packed to make good use of FTGG.
You also need to keep your riptides close to their drones, who should also ideally be hidden.
This means that you can't really make use of the riptide's mobility. And saying that you can't end up in melee against Tau is just false, making use of terrain or using a resilient target to charge in and soak the overwatch is still a viable strategy, except now its even more punishing than before since they run less fire warriors to screen and they can't fall back and shoot with fly.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wow so...you know by in large all vehicals got better right? so the fly nerf is superfluous to no -1 to hit on the move and now you can shoot into melee.

Congratulations, you're now hitting on 5s with your Riptides in combat. Your Commanders, Broadsides, and Crisis suits cant shoot into combat because they're not vehicles, and your Hammerheads are already dead. And now they can't reposition themselves on the table after being tagged.

So much better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tau are virtually unchargable anyways...

This is demonstrably false.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Units that move fast and have long ranged guns arent at risk of being charged...now they can move without pentalty for free...it's a buff.

Repeating a lie doesnt make it accurate.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Now you are taking reroll shots on overwatch instead - so you overwatch better - while other units like a relic levithan have to pay to over-watch now...

Yes, hitting on those rerollable 6s on a Riptide is such a game changer. Wow, I cant imagine why nobody ever thought of that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The only mention you make that actually makes sense is the change to cover. Tau doesn't like -1 to hits but it's also a blessing at the same time because there cant be worse than a -1.

Do you actually understand how hard it is for the mainline units in a Tau army to get a -1 to hit? No, you dont, because you are once again demonstrating how little you understand 9ths rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Like how many times are you gonna tell me I dont know what I am talking about...then you get completely owned?

Considering you just put on a master class of cluelessness, I'm going to continue to tell you that you dont know what you're talking about until such time as you demonstrate that you have a clue what you're talking about.

Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

 Billagio wrote:
Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

We won't convince him, sadly, he still only looks at the damage output of a unit to judge its viability and he finds the mission a "gamey" aspect of 9th. He just wants to table everyone then have his opponents surrender instead of counting the pts and realising he actually lost the game.

 Billagio wrote:
Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

So secondaries are also holding armies back that have no other way of competing then huh? This is a good thing?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

So secondaries are also holding armies back that have no other way of competing then huh? This is a good thing?

No, they should balance the secondaries if needed or change how the army is designed. Last night the guys on Tabletop Titans said that GW should consider re-designing Tau (If they were hypothetically going to overhaul 1 army completely) Also Tau would do pretty well in most of the kill secondaries and engage on all fronts. But if they castle up they will lose on primaries

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

So secondaries are also holding armies back that have no other way of competing then huh? This is a good thing?

The game should be more than just roll dice, remove models, repeat until one side has no more models.

If an army cannot achieve that, then the army should be changed so it CAN achieve that.

 Billagio wrote:
Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

What makes it really sad is that post-PA in 8th Tau were shaping up to be an exceptionally aggressive and mobile army that would have been a boatload of fun to play 9th style games with. Now the faction is highly pigeon-holed into a castle playstyle that just doesnt have what it takes to compete against an opponent with a functional brain and a not half-baked list.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wow so...you know by in large all vehicals got better right? so the fly nerf is superfluous to no -1 to hit on the move and now you can shoot into melee.

Congratulations, you're now hitting on 5s with your Riptides in combat. Your Commanders, Broadsides, and Crisis suits cant shoot into combat because they're not vehicles, and your Hammerheads are already dead. And now they can't reposition themselves on the table after being tagged.

So much better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tau are virtually unchargable anyways...

This is demonstrably false.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Units that move fast and have long ranged guns arent at risk of being charged...now they can move without pentalty for free...it's a buff.

Repeating a lie doesnt make it accurate.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Now you are taking reroll shots on overwatch instead - so you overwatch better - while other units like a relic levithan have to pay to over-watch now...

Yes, hitting on those rerollable 6s on a Riptide is such a game changer. Wow, I cant imagine why nobody ever thought of that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The only mention you make that actually makes sense is the change to cover. Tau doesn't like -1 to hits but it's also a blessing at the same time because there cant be worse than a -1.

Do you actually understand how hard it is for the mainline units in a Tau army to get a -1 to hit? No, you dont, because you are once again demonstrating how little you understand 9ths rules.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Like how many times are you gonna tell me I dont know what I am talking about...then you get completely owned?

Considering you just put on a master class of cluelessness, I'm going to continue to tell you that you dont know what you're talking about until such time as you demonstrate that you have a clue what you're talking about.

Wow sounds like you just put the sledgehammer down even though your whole army got shot off the board before it got close enough to charge me and die in overwatch...LOL you clearly dont play this game. Charge tau...you are hliarous...unless you are quinns or eldar...that aint happening.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Tau basically only have 2 phases, and to make the most of their abilities they need to stay grouped...Not exactly good for the new objective based victory conditions in 9th. In other editions where you could win by just ass blasting your oppenent sure, but thats not the case anymore.

So secondaries are also holding armies back that have no other way of competing then huh? This is a good thing?

????