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Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Ork players want new powerful toys to play with and shake up their lists. I can't say I blame them and hope they get it. to be honest I'd like to see every army get new toys. I'd like to see Orks and Eldar given a range update. I'd like to see Custodes fleshed out to feel like a more complete army (they're a touch bare bones now. I mean their vehicles are ALL handmedown marine stuff) I'd like to see the chaos marine update finished off with a plastic noise marine dex. and ya know, after this release.. I think primaris are in a complete place where I'd be fine if GW stopped with Marines for a bit beyond maybe the odd chapter specific character and upgrade pack for the forseeable future.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Man I'm pretty firmly pro-play-to-the-mission, but even I can recognize that building an army to sit in the magic circles and die as slowly as possible is pretty lame.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great
You may want to read the recaps from the guy playing.
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Ork players want new powerful toys to play with and shake up their lists. I can't say I blame them and hope they get it. to be honest I'd like to see every army get new toys. I'd like to see Orks and Eldar given a range update. I'd like to see Custodes fleshed out to feel like a more complete army (they're a touch bare bones now. I mean their vehicles are ALL handmedown marine stuff) I'd like to see the chaos marine update finished off with a plastic noise marine dex. and ya know, after this release.. I think primaris are in a complete place where I'd be fine if GW stopped with Marines for a bit beyond maybe the odd chapter specific character and upgrade pack for the forseeable future.
wouldn't it be the other way around?
but I digress, I'm cool with them not getting a release for a while. not that I'm keeping up w the(Jones's) new releases, more so that I think they dont really need much more in terms of functioning as Primaris by themselves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 07:12:25
Alwrath wrote: This Ork GT second place winner is my hero, it proves half the whiners on Dakka are just internet trolls who dont actually play the game, and just cry " Space Marines are OP cause they get all the shiny new stuff ", meanwhile, in some 28 year olds dark mother's basement, another guy runs home with all his space marine models crying after losing to an Ork list. Cause you know, Orks are OP in 8th apparently...
These things aren't mutually exclusive. Space Marines can still be OP even if someone was able to compete with them on the day. It definitely does show that Orks aren't anywhere as bad as the consistently downright awful Ork players on this website would have had us believe though.
Ork players want new powerful toys to play with and shake up their lists. I can't say I blame them and hope they get it. to be honest I'd like to see every army get new toys. I'd like to see Orks and Eldar given a range update. I'd like to see Custodes fleshed out to feel like a more complete army (they're a touch bare bones now. I mean their vehicles are ALL handmedown marine stuff) I'd like to see the chaos marine update finished off with a plastic noise marine dex. and ya know, after this release.. I think primaris are in a complete place where I'd be fine if GW stopped with Marines for a bit beyond maybe the odd chapter specific character and upgrade pack for the forseeable future.
wouldn't it be the other way around?
but I digress, I'm cool with them not getting a release for a while. not that I'm keeping up w the(Jones's) new releases, more so that I think they dont really need much more in terms of functioning as Primaris by themselves.
well I'm talking from an OOC standpoint.
And yeah I think Primaris are effectively complete. I think I understand what GW's design goal here is and I thiiiink they're done, some more vetern units might be kinda nice just to pad out the 1st company, and a jump pack unit would be swell but other then that and an aircraft, yeah I think the lines more or less complete.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
Man I'm pretty firmly pro-play-to-the-mission, but even I can recognize that building an army to sit in the magic circles and die as slowly as possible is pretty lame.
Maybe that's thrilling for people who are solely interested in whether or not they win, but for anyone who was attracted to Orks for the idea of gettin' stuck in and krumpin' heads, being told that your army is great
You may want to read the recaps from the guy playing.
Yeah I usually agree with most of what catbarf says, but it feels like he built his impression on how the list played from reading some posts from the baddies in here who just outright decided it played. The army recaps all describe a list that picked tactical avenues of approach to rush down and chop up everything they could while having enough numbers to not be pushed off objectives easily. All those boys are aimed for getting in combat, not for sitting on objectives, hence the massive investment into buffing their offends with Skarboys / Ghaz etc. This was not a list designed to mill about and try outlast firepower on top of objectives, that’s like the opposite of what he did.
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
I could see a list like that lose to 120 boys yes.
I much more fear lists like this from a tourney a few weeks ago
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion
Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword
Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus
Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Bolt Aggressors
Invictor
Invictor
6 Plasma Inceptors
Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon
5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
I could see a list like that lose to 120 boys yes.
I much more fear lists like this from a tourney a few weeks ago
The firepower to delete squads combined with CC power to lock down units
When they first previewed the codex some eagle eyed people spotted that space Marine scouts where listed in the elites section of the TOC. so that could change lists like that up. gone would be the relativley cheap source of troops. with that change Marines cheapest troop is going to be the 17 PPM assault intercessor. meaning marines would need to bare minimum spend 255 points on troops. it's minor, but even as a Marine player I'll be glad to see the days of "3 scout squads as the troops" battle forces gone
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 10:23:36
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Insectum7 wrote: It will be weird seeing Scouts in the Elites slot, but forcing power armor into the Troops slot is good.
it will be a bit odd (although I started space wolves a year back so I've gotten used to it) but yeah I agree. the basic core troop choice of a Marine army should be a Marine.
And before someone asks me about Chaos Marines, I'm of the opinion Cultists should be removed and we should instead get a proper renegades and heretics army
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 11:11:52
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
And yeah I think Primaris are effectively complete. I think I understand what GW's design goal here is and I thiiiink they're done, some more vetern units might be kinda nice just to pad out the 1st company, and a jump pack unit would be swell but other then that and an aircraft, yeah I think the lines more or less complete.
They need a Jump Fight unit.
They need Aircraft.
The models we've been shown but haven't gotten yet, ATV, some sort of non-transport Tank, etc.
They need to figure out what they're doing with Terminators/First Companies.
They need to work on the Imulsor Orbital Bombardment if it's going to be the Vindicator replacement. It's not very good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: It will be weird seeing Scouts in the Elites slot, but forcing power armor into the Troops slot is good.
Unless they give scouts some sort of pony to trick out, that'll kill them, but - assuming true - was likely a response to all the 3x5 scouts + toys min/max lists. It's too bad, I liked taking a couple 2x10 Power Armor Troops and 1x10 Scout Armor troops
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 12:11:11
And yeah I think Primaris are effectively complete. I think I understand what GW's design goal here is and I thiiiink they're done, some more vetern units might be kinda nice just to pad out the 1st company, and a jump pack unit would be swell but other then that and an aircraft, yeah I think the lines more or less complete.
They need a Jump Fight unit.
They need Aircraft.
The models we've been shown but haven't gotten yet, ATV, some sort of non-transport Tank, etc.
They need to figure out what they're doing with Terminators/First Companies.
They need to work on the Imulsor Orbital Bombardment if it's going to be the Vindicator replacement. It's not very good.
I suspect the new gladiator is intended to be the primaris "replacement" for the vindicator, predator etc. remember they're not doing exact 1 to 1 replacements.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I suspect the new gladiator is intended to be the primaris "replacement" for the vindicator, predator etc. remember they're not doing exact 1 to 1 replacements.
Yeah I looked them up first. I'm not sure either the Valiant or the Lancer is the Vindicator though. If the Heavy Laser Destroyer is eligible for Ordnance rules in future editions, the Repuslor Executioner is even worse than we think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 12:14:55
Breton wrote:You may want to read the recaps from the guy playing.
Nitro Zeus wrote:Yeah I usually agree with most of what catbarf says, but it feels like he built his impression on how the list played from reading some posts from the baddies in here who just outright decided it played. The army recaps all describe a list that picked tactical avenues of approach to rush down and chop up everything they could while having enough numbers to not be pushed off objectives easily. All those boys are aimed for getting in combat, not for sitting on objectives, hence the massive investment into buffing their offends with Skarboys / Ghaz etc. This was not a list designed to mill about and try outlast firepower on top of objectives, that’s like the opposite of what he did.
I had not read that recap when I made my post, mea culpa. I was responding specifically to the implication, as I saw it, that if an army known for aggression and fighting can't fight but can out-attrition on objectives, then it's in a fine place. It looks like that isn't actually relevant so I'll stop tilting at windmills.
What would you guys suggest for armies like Daemons, that don't have quite the access to offensive buffs that Orks do but have cheaper models (well, Daemonettes specifically)?
I've actually had pretty good success with mono-Slaanesh in 9th, but I'm not sure I've been super challenged yet either by a list tailored to beat Keepers (a list with lots of anti-tank shooting that is resistant to charges/has screens/some other issue).
Unit1126PLL wrote: What would you guys suggest for armies like Daemons, that don't have quite the access to offensive buffs that Orks do but have cheaper models (well, Daemonettes specifically)?
I've actually had pretty good success with mono-Slaanesh in 9th, but I'm not sure I've been super challenged yet either by a list tailored to beat Keepers (a list with lots of anti-tank shooting that is resistant to charges/has screens/some other issue).
Unit1126PLL wrote: What would you guys suggest for armies like Daemons, that don't have quite the access to offensive buffs that Orks do but have cheaper models (well, Daemonettes specifically)?
I've actually had pretty good success with mono-Slaanesh in 9th, but I'm not sure I've been super challenged yet either by a list tailored to beat Keepers (a list with lots of anti-tank shooting that is resistant to charges/has screens/some other issue).
Do we have a better tournament balance than people care to admit?
I think we do. I do think that the tactics are very monobuild. The Daemons guy in the thread is talking about how he build the list specifically to the mission pack - which is awesome, imho, don't get me wrong. In competitive play, that sort of advantage is a good get.
I think the main complaint about marines comes from the casual arena, where the mission pack is "eh, whatever, want to just kill each other?" 5 times out of 10, and the army lists are 'hhm, I am playing against Orks, lemme replace this <thing> with <thing> in my handwritten list constructed 15 mins before the game".
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think the main complaint about marines comes from the casual arena, where the mission pack is "eh, whatever, want to just kill each other?" 5 times out of 10, and the army lists are 'hhm, I am playing against Orks, lemme replace this <thing> with <thing> in my handwritten list constructed 15 mins before the game".
That is interesting. How is that handled in your local meta?
In mine we discourage people from list tailoring. "Bring an army as if you don't know your opponent". For missions we roll randomly on the CA2020 table.
I recently started to reroll the missions that have too big of an advantage for the player who goes first (based on the Goonhammer article a few weeks back)
Do we have a better tournament balance than people care to admit?
I think we do. I do think that the tactics are very monobuild.
I think this is going to be a very important distinction to make, especially as 9th leans into the Matched versus Crusade mission styles (which are very different) with more and more releases.
I recently started to reroll the missions that have too big of an advantage for the player who goes first (based on the Goonhammer article a few weeks back)
This is something my LGS crew has been doing for a while, as particular armies have significant issues in particular missions (the one with the honking null field is one we basically didnt play for the second half of 8th for instance). I expect once plague resolves we'll adapt the approach for 9th, or alter the deployment / first turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 14:43:51
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think the main complaint about marines comes from the casual arena, where the mission pack is "eh, whatever, want to just kill each other?" 5 times out of 10, and the army lists are 'hhm, I am playing against Orks, lemme replace this <thing> with <thing> in my handwritten list constructed 15 mins before the game".
That is interesting. How is that handled in your local meta?
In mine we discourage people from list tailoring. "Bring an army as if you don't know your opponent". For missions we roll randomly on the CA2020 table.
I recently started to reroll the missions that have too big of an advantage for the player who goes first (based on the Goonhammer article a few weeks back)
It isn't handled. I mean, not officially. The club doesn't force people to write their lists at a specific way or time or have any specific mechanism for missions.
I am getting much of my excitement and fun from a local campaign that's using modified Crusade rules to become more escalation-style (so starting at 20pl, going up 5 every two weeks. Now we're at 35, this sunday we go up to 40). It helps that we have space to play as the club is able to rent a huge area where we can set up lots of tables and socially distance once weekly.
SemperMortis wrote: If only Space marine players had some kind of anti-horde unit that was purpose built to obliterate large units of infantry. Like some kind of aggressive unit that could sit relatively close to the objective and dish out like 12 S4 shots per model at a ridiculously low cost like 40ppm Even then though it might not be enough so GW should probably give them some kind of innate ability to shoot twice if they don't move or something. Probably would stack pretty good with normal buffs like a LT or a chapter master so they could reroll misses and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1. Probably could reliably wipe out an entire unit of boyz each turn. But who knows, sounds like a pipe dream.
He faced Boltstorm Aggressors in the first list and won:
Spoiler:
Ultramarines Battalion Phobos Cap – Soldiers Blade, Imperium’s Sword Cassius – Catachism of Fire, Recitation of Focus Primaris LT (Indomitus) – WL, Adept of the Codex, Seal of Oath 5 Infiltrators 5 Scouts 5 Scouts 6 Bolt Aggressors Invictor Invictor 6 Plasma Inceptors Leviathan w/ 2x storm cannon 5 Grav Devs Drop Pod
NO WAY! DUDE! Orkz with Hundreds of infantry in an edition that prioritizes objectives being held by infantry were able to beat a SM list that had....29 infantry models, 15 of whom were troops with Objective secure. It's almost like this guy built a list to table opponents and lost on objectives because he couldn't hold any of the points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My Tournament list (Whenever they open back up) is going to be Ork boyz backed up by KFF's and Painboyz. I don't intend to kill much if anything, but you know what? I'll be able to easily plant 30 bodies on an objective with a 5++ and a 6+ FNP.
Skew lists based on objective holding are going to do well because at the moment you have players adjusting to the meta and bringing tons of anti-vehicle units and anti-elite stuff like 300pts of Plasma inceptors which are good but complete overkill vs a T4 6+ save boy who costs 8pts. Those Inceptors are going to struggle to earn back their points shooting at boyz, let alone do anything like take an objective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 15:49:13
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
There is a chance they are if bikes are core then Eradicators will be, too. It will certainly be a decent slap to Salamanders since they're also losing their re-roll to hit.
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
Dudeface wrote: Place bets, if Eradicators aren't core, no rerolls any more.
You mean no more Shoot Twice? We already know if they aren't CORE rerolls will be few and far between if not entirely absent.
I think it's more likely they are CORE than not CORE though. If Terminators are CORE - and that was one of the example units that would be - then I can't see how Aggressors and Eradicators wouldn't be. If they're the Primaris analog to Terminators they'd need to be CORE, if they're just regular Devs and such in upgraded Armor, they'd still be Core?
depends, terminators are basicly a "super tactical marine" GW might wanna keep the core thing to troops and units that are effectively "vetern troops" but yeah we dunno for sure. My gut is it'll be, for marines, infantry bikes and dreads that have it. because GW has always envisioned those units as the core of a marine army
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Eldar 
Imperial Guard 
Space Marines
