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BrianDavion wrote:

 CEO Kasen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


honestly this entire drama is rediculas, marines are getting a new codex in less then 2 weeks. we have no idea what the state of the codex will be.

Of course it's ridiculous. We're mostly grown adults arguing about the rules for absurdly overpriced plastic models in a setting so far over the top it needs a damn spacesuit. That doesn't mean we can't all come together and care passionately about those rules to the point of mental illness.

But... I took my medication today!

I guess you need more, since you are still here

Daedalus81 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
And what is your opinion on the strength of marines relative to other factions, exactly?

They're the best and easiest faction available, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

So what exactly should the price of the tea in question be? Assuming eradicators and aggressors have the same rules in the new Loyalist Scum codex, would you say they should stay at their current price? That's what the question here is. Anything is ok if you pay enough for it. It's fine if eradicators can burn through any vehicle without an invul and aggressors can chew through any infantry that isn't some kind of TEQ as long as they pay for those rules. So, are their current prices fair? Or should they increase if they keep their current rules? Personally I think they're both too cheap for what they do. What's your call?

BrianDavion wrote:But... I took my medication today!

But.... don't you miss The Voices? I always get so lonely when mine go away.

BrianDavion 791574 10941319 wrote:

But... I took my medication today!

It isn't very nice to make fun of people who have to take them daily.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 791574 10941319 wrote:

But... I took my medication today!

It isn't very nice to make fun of people who have to take them daily.

He's not making fun of people that do, he's joking about how we argue about the game to an extreme level.

Breton wrote:


He had a unit that needs to get thrown in. What "he did wrong" was to try and take out Rock with Scissors. 8 Mek Guns with a Smasha Gun is also about 270 points, and will decimate 6 Aggressors. For the same price you can get 4.5 Kustom Mega-Kannons and do about the same. They're arguing their worst unit for the encounter vs the opponent's unit designed for such an encounter.

Basically taking my point about a TAC list needing some anti-"horde" to make up for lost power from Anti-tank/etc and throwing it full speed reverse by pretending the Ork army only has 30 strong mobs of boys.

8 Smasha gunz = 320pts not 270pts, 16 shots (bonus 2.6 shots for 1.3 extra hits) for 9 hits on average, wounding on 5+ (2D6) = equivalent of wounding on 2s so 7-8 wounds, -4 AP so it goes straight through and becomes...D6 dmg per shot so you will roll less than 3 twice, in the order they come in is kind of important but the likelihood is you kill 4-5 models. So you earned back 160pts of your 320 cost and were able to gut the unit. Of course that also assumes a lot but fair is fair, we will say the mek gunz all somehow drew LOS and there wasn't enough models/terrain between them to draw a -1 to hit or +1 to their saves which would reduce the dmg by a fairly significant amount.

KMKs are 65pts each so you can take 5 for 325pts, they do D6 shots so you are talking about 17 to 18 shots (bonus 3ish shots for 1.5 more hits), so about 10 hits (likely 3-4 Mortal wounds on themselves) wounding on 3s so 6 wounds and -3 AP so they still get a 6+ save so 5 wounds go through for D6 damage which again means on average 1 to 2 rolls of less than 3 which means between 3 and 4 dead models.

So the 325pt unit designed to kill Heavy Infantry/Vehicles were able to kill between 120pts (Average Low end) and 200pts (Average high end) of aggressors with above average conditions (No cover/terrain bonus over 36-48' range), so between 33-66% of their costs..compared to the aggressors (40pts) which kill 6-7 boyz(48-56pts) each or 120-140% of their cost.

And in an infantry horde skew list, you don't take mek gunz because they draw fire and die ridiculously quickly, so the likelihood is that the ork player didn't even have the option of shooting the Aggressors with anything like reliable firepower.

80-100% points return in a single turn is crazy for a unit that is:

-in no way a glass cannon (T5 W3 3+)
-in no way a single-target type specialist (also equipped with powerfists, A3 on the charge, WS3+)
-in no way a suicide unit

Aggressors (and eradicators, frankly, they've got the same defensive profile) are only concentrated on by opponents because they HAVE to be taken out instantly or they will make their points back usually over the course of 1-2 turns.

They're just overtuned. For eradicators, I would increase their cost (because you could do something like make melta rifiles 18" range to deny them the possibility of melta range on deep strike, but there is such a massive array of levers available to marines that SOMEONE has ways around every restriction you try to put down) and for Aggressors I would do what it seems they are going to do, decrease their firepower to make them more into the brawler unit that their fluff identity seems to indicate that they should be.

The whole 'shoot twice if they stand still' thing is just kind of stupid. I'm sorry. It's stupid because they modeled them with Powerfists, which are always going to be an expensive piece of wargear that you generally want to be MOVING to use, so the only way to make Aggressors worthwhile with both the powerfists and the double shoot rule is to make them SUPER CRAZY overtuned.

GW has always had this bizarre fetish with making marine units with hyper-inefficient, non synergistic loadouts that mean they either have to get a bunch of gak essentially for free over competing choices from other factions, or they just suck at their job.

Are you going to give the thunderfire cannon gunner dude a free servo-arm, a free power axe, a free flamer, and a free plasma pistol? Or is the thunderfire cannon just going to suck compared to a Wyvern or a vauls wrath gun? How 'bout a Havoc squad, is that mandatory meltagun or flamer on the sergeant going to be free, or just a baked-in 5-10 points of useless inefficiency on your long range heavy support unit? Mandatory battlecannon on your defiler! Mandatory 4 Lascannons on your transport tank for delivering short range/melee infantry!

Is the all-melee or all-guns version of the standard dreadnought ALWAYS going to be the best way to run it, or are you going to price and stat the one-gun-one-arm version such that it's basically as good at melee as the all melee version and gets its shooting almost for free?

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 791574 10941319 wrote:

But... I took my medication today!

It isn't very nice to make fun of people who have to take them daily.

As someone who does take his medication every day, I didn't find it offensive at all.

Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

And 90% of dakka was not surprised The other 10% weren't either, they are just celebrating quietly by themselves.

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Can you show me where the rest of the codex got leaked so I can look for myself how everything else is interacting with Eradicators? I don't want to base my opinion about their OPness purely on a rumoured point value. Thanks!

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Gives them something to do in the 2 week eratta - although there will likely be plenty of other stuff given the usual cock ups

a_typical_hero wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Can you show me where the rest of the codex got leaked so I can look for myself how everything else is interacting with Eradicators? I don't want to base my opinion about their OPness purely on a rumoured point value. Thanks!

That you think they need an interactions with any other rules to be broken OP at 40PPM says enough.
Roumer is in news and roumers.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Can you show me where the rest of the codex got leaked so I can look for myself how everything else is interacting with Eradicators? I don't want to base my opinion about their OPness purely on a rumoured point value. Thanks!

Posting the leaked codex on Dakka would be against the rules.

Ice_can wrote:

Roumer is in news and roumers.

Its also entirely unsourced, and unsubstantiated. I guarantee that if there were credible images in the wild that covered as much as the "rumor" claims to, it would be showing up in multiple locations.

It isnt.

Getting worked up about likely bs doesnt serve anyone.

Sterling191 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Roumer is in news and roumers.

Its also entirely unsourced, and unsubstantiated. I guarantee that if there were credible images in the wild that covered as much as the "rumor" claims to, it would be showing up in multiple locations.

It isnt.

Getting worked up about likely bs doesnt serve anyone.

I do appreciate that these leaks are so dubious that even "rumor" got put in quotes.

But I'm in agreement. Until some evidence emerges, this is even less credible than the backs of those unit boxes, and this rumor and those boxes contradict each other.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Can you show me where the rest of the codex got leaked so I can look for myself how everything else is interacting with Eradicators? I don't want to base my opinion about their OPness purely on a rumoured point value. Thanks!

Posting the leaked codex on Dakka would be against the rules.

I'm aware of that. I am poking at Ice_can for their text since we obviously still don't have enough information to make an informed decision about what units will be good and which will be bad. For all we know the double shoot ability could have been moved to a 1CP stratagem.

"Wait and see" means "wait until we have the full codex rules", not "wait until we have one additional tidbit but still missing 95% of the rest".

Chapter Master is apparently 40 points and gives only one CORE full rerolls, buuuut it also sounds like Eradicators are 3-6 so if they don't lose double shoot...sweet jesus...

Do we know if the heavy intercessors are going to get some nonsense fire twice ability as well (like firing twice after advancing)? Is it not tied to the aggressor armour, or is it the elite status of aggressors/eradicators? Really confused by the justification for GW to pass this ability out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Chapter Master is apparently 40 points and gives only one CORE full rerolls, buuuut it also sounds like Eradicators are 3-6 so if they don't lose double shoot...sweet jesus...

Considering even something like Eradicators are Core this only matters as a nerf for dreadnought/tanks and most if not all of the infantry will be Core.
If Aggressors are Core (and I would consider that likely if Eradicators are) then 40 points for full re-rolls is probably worth it.

 Ordana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Chapter Master is apparently 40 points and gives only one CORE full rerolls, buuuut it also sounds like Eradicators are 3-6 so if they don't lose double shoot...sweet jesus...

Considering even something like Eradicators are Core this only matters as a nerf for dreadnought/tanks and most if not all of the infantry will be Core.
If Aggressors are Core (and I would consider that likely if Eradicators are) then 40 points for full re-rolls is probably worth it.

It's nice just in the fact that we can directly measure the direct cost of full rerolls. 40 points seems low if you can take 6 Eradicators in a unit and give it to them though.

Still just rumors, which had TH at AP2 D3 and 20 points so no idea if any of it is correct.

Where are these rumours coming from? I've not seen anything in the usual youtube talk videos or on reddit?

cody.d. wrote:
Do we know if the heavy intercessors are going to get some nonsense fire twice ability as well (like firing twice after advancing)? Is it not tied to the aggressor armour, or is it the elite status of aggressors/eradicators? Really confused by the justification for GW to pass this ability out.

If I was going to guess it would be "ignores heavy"

 Bosskelot wrote:
Where are these rumours coming from? I've not seen anything in the usual youtube talk videos or on reddit?

Reddit, but today's post confirmed the CM point cost in any case.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Where are these rumours coming from? I've not seen anything in the usual youtube talk videos or on reddit?

Reddit, but today's post confirmed the CM point cost in any case.

Keep in mind it was a 40 point difference before though, so that doesn't exactly clear matters.

 fraser1191 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Do we know if the heavy intercessors are going to get some nonsense fire twice ability as well (like firing twice after advancing)? Is it not tied to the aggressor armour, or is it the elite status of aggressors/eradicators? Really confused by the justification for GW to pass this ability out.

If I was going to guess it would be "ignores heavy"

Eh, while nice the changes to stacking modifies makes it not quite as impactful. I mean, if I ever want to fire at something with a heavy weapon on the move i'll just target a flyer or something with native -1 to hit. (not always going to happen but i'm sure you get the gist of what I mean.)

a_typical_hero wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Can you show me where the rest of the codex got leaked so I can look for myself how everything else is interacting with Eradicators? I don't want to base my opinion about their OPness purely on a rumoured point value. Thanks!

I would suggest that anyone who needs the rest of the codex to judge has completely missed the point with Eradicators. It has been shown time and time again that they overperform with no buffs whatsoever; that they become ridiculous when buffed is exacerbating the problem, not the problem in and of itself.

Next thing you know the codex is going to come out and the same people will be saying 'We can't judge yet; we don't know the full details of all the other codices, for all you know they'll be more resistant to Eradicators!'.

It's really tiring.

 catbarf wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well if the latest leaks are true it seems the wait and see crew have another epic fail on their record as eradicators are still 40ppm in the codex with their new improved melta rifles.

Can you show me where the rest of the codex got leaked so I can look for myself how everything else is interacting with Eradicators? I don't want to base my opinion about their OPness purely on a rumoured point value. Thanks!

I would suggest that anyone who needs the rest of the codex to judge has completely missed the point with Eradicators. It has been shown time and time again that they overperform with no buffs whatsoever; that they become ridiculous when buffed is exacerbating the problem, not the problem in and of itself.

Next thing you know the codex is going to come out and the same people will be saying 'We can't judge yet; we don't know the full details of all the other codices, for all you know they'll be more resistant to Eradicators!'.

It's really tiring.

And it will be the same people who were saying IH's aren't that strong and BA Smash captains aren't broken etc etc.

 CEO Kasen wrote:


And THAT doesn't even count the fact that for some reason they all get powerfists

Mini/Discount Calgar + Terminator parallel. They got the first fist for being the Primaris equivalent to Shooty Terminators. They don't gain anything from two fists over 1 (so far) and a lot of people run/ran Calgar in their DIY Counts As Ultramarines so give them double fists for "free" to sell more. That's the reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Chapter Master is apparently 40 points and gives only one CORE full rerolls, buuuut it also sounds like Eradicators are 3-6 so if they don't lose double shoot...sweet jesus...

You can take 3-6 of them? That wouldn't suck. I absolutely hate the 3 and only 3 infantry (or non-vehicle so include the bikers etc) units. Neither 1000 nor 100 divides by 3. Heck, they should start at 3, and expand to 5 not 6. Just to make my eye quit twitching.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Do we know if the heavy intercessors are going to get some nonsense fire twice ability as well (like firing twice after advancing)? Is it not tied to the aggressor armour, or is it the elite status of aggressors/eradicators? Really confused by the justification for GW to pass this ability out.

The Fire Twice is different for each unit. My Guess is it's fluffed via training, not a feature of the armor. Eradicators can't split fire, Aggressors can't move very far if at all. It's possible all Gravis get a Fire Twice similar to Bolter Drill always being on for Termies though, but not any time soon. If that happens I'd guess Aggressors and Erads lose their bespoke fire Twice, and instead get a universal Gravis Drill rule similar to Bolter Drill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Do we know if the heavy intercessors are going to get some nonsense fire twice ability as well (like firing twice after advancing)? Is it not tied to the aggressor armour, or is it the elite status of aggressors/eradicators? Really confused by the justification for GW to pass this ability out.

If I was going to guess it would be "ignores heavy"

Could be both. Gravis is more and more showing up as some sort of Primaris Terminator equivalent. Terminators have frequently ignored Heavy in the past, and they're getting Bolter Drill in the current. Probably not right away, but people are going to side-eye this until GW figures out what to do. If the others can fire twice, and Terminators get to Rapid Fire 2 x 2 storm bolters, why can't Heavy Intercessors double Rapid Fire their bolters?

 catbarf wrote:

It's really tiring.

It must be tiring when people misrepresent the point constantly.

 catbarf wrote:
I would suggest that anyone who needs the rest of the codex to judge has completely missed the point with Eradicators. It has been shown time and time again that they overperform with no buffs whatsoever; that they become ridiculous when buffed is exacerbating the problem, not the problem in and of itself.

Next thing you know the codex is going to come out and the same people will be saying 'We can't judge yet; we don't know the full details of all the other codices, for all you know they'll be more resistant to Eradicators!'.

It's really tiring.

SemperMortis wrote:
And it will be the same people who were saying IH's aren't that strong and BA Smash captains aren't broken etc etc.

If you guys are so sure about the final rules for Eradicators, their point costs and how the new codex will interact with them, why don't you enlighten the rest of us?

Or MAYBE your opinion that they are overperforming is purely based on what they do right now in context of the current codex with rules that will be outdated in 2 weeks?