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History of Marines in 8th edition:
Release of game->CA17. Top tier.
CA17->2018 codexes coming out. Mediocre. Getting worse.
Lets say Knights about mid-2018. Now bad. Would remain bad (and get worse and worse) through to some point in 2019 with bolter discipline and hateful assault. Still not great.
New Codex->Very good.
Supplements->Broken.
Faith and Fury->Just stop.
Indomitus->Pls. Just. Stop.

They've had a lot of time at the top - but this doesn't deny the fact at some point between the December 2017 nerfs, and April (?) 2019 beta rules, they were objectively bad. The fact GK were even worse doesn't change this.

Tyel wrote:
History of Marines in 8th edition:
Release of game->CA17. Top tier.
CA17->2018 codexes coming out. Mediocre. Getting worse.
Lets say Knights about mid-2018. Now bad. Would remain bad (and get worse and worse) through to some point in 2019 with bolter discipline and hateful assault. Still not great.
New Codex->Very good.
Supplements->Broken.
Faith and Fury->Just stop.
Indomitus->Pls. Just. Stop.

They've had a lot of time at the top - but this doesn't deny the fact at some point between the December 2017 nerfs, and April (?) 2019 beta rules, they were objectively bad. The fact GK were even worse doesn't change this.

except they weren't bad and getting worse mid 2018. They were average. Which again, to most SM players feels like the end of the world because they are so used to being OP as all hell. You still had good players placing well in tournaments with SM lists and having their highest placings near the top of tournaments. Just because IK's were the MOST op does not lower the strength of Space Marines from great to bad, it just moves them from great to average. Same thing with the eldar flying circus nonsense.

Yeah and those BA armies that placed high were often consisting of a large group of IG, a castellan, 15 scouts and smash hammer heroes.

And go tell a DA or any non ultramarines player that he got used to super OP rules, and that is why he wants rules now. Specialy pre 2.0 Iron Hand players or people that started primaris armies in 8th ed. They love to be told that after 2 years of bad rules, now their good rules have to be nerfed, so that people that had good rules for 2 years can have good rules and fun again. In the name of balance.

So, leaks are coming in and, as I brought it up earlier in the thread, Aggressors ARE losing double shoot.

Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Karol wrote:
Yeah and those BA armies that placed high were often consisting of a large group of IG, a castellan, 15 scouts and smash hammer heroes.

And go tell a DA or any non ultramarines player that he got used to super OP rules, and that is why he wants rules now. Specialy pre 2.0 Iron Hand players or people that started primaris armies in 8th ed. They love to be told that after 2 years of bad rules, now their good rules have to be nerfed, so that people that had good rules for 2 years can have good rules and fun again. In the name of balance.

I was actually referencing PURE SM lists, and BA armies were a whole different story. Usually BA players were relegated to minimum detachment to gain access to smash captains + Loyal 32 + whatever other flavor of Imperial soup you desired, usually castellan. But why didn't BA players run a pure BA list instead of using allies? Because they could soup and make themselves significantly better, which brings us full circle to the point where we mention that bringing multiple detachments from different factions was bad for game balance NERF IMPERIAL GUARD! why? Because SM players are abusing Loyal 32 detachments to feed CP into their Castellans from another codex

As to your second paragraph, I should go tell DA and Non Codex SM players that they got used to Super op rules? beyond the fact that I specifically said SMs and not DA/BA etc, there is also the fact that those DA players miraculously appeared at Tournaments in 8th as both Green Ultramarines and the even rarer Green Iron Hands. Almost like the only thing which separates the vast majority of units between different Chapters is....armor color. Sure you might have to pick up Bobby G to benefit the most for your Green Ultramarines, likewise you might have to purchase a couple of Wolf cavalry for your Green Space Wolves.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.

Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.

With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

Spoletta wrote:
With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

If Aggressors completely lose shoot twice instead of getting it for a 2CP strat, a unit of 6 is still doing 72 shots, 48 hits and 24 wounds for 20 dead Orkz a turn. That is 160pts of dead Orkz a turn for the price of 240.

What is sad is Marine players will consider them dead because of this, even when other factions would still kill for a 240pt unit with Power Fists capable of mauling 2/3rds of a Boyz mob a turn.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Aggressors LOST double tap.

Which is a good thing for everyone, including the SM players. Rolling 140 dice was a real pain and even the standard volley of shots is still an insane amount of firepower for their points. I play orks since 3rd, I don't mind rolling tons of dice, but I've never rolled as many dice as a SM player does for those 6 dudes. I definitely wouldn't want to roll that many dice for a single unit, let alone a squad of just a handful of models


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

Agressors are still fantastic against hordes. They can wipe 20+ models in a single round of shots.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

If Aggressors completely lose shoot twice instead of getting it for a 2CP strat, a unit of 6 is still doing 72 shots, 48 hits and 24 wounds for 20 dead Orkz a turn. That is 160pts of dead Orkz a turn for the price of 240.

What is sad is Marine players will consider them dead because of this, even when other factions would still kill for a 240pt unit with Power Fists capable of mauling 2/3rds of a Boyz mob a turn.

Actually I consider them dead because they lost that AND the ability to advance + fire with no penalty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

If Aggressors completely lose shoot twice instead of getting it for a 2CP strat, a unit of 6 is still doing 72 shots, 48 hits and 24 wounds for 20 dead Orkz a turn. That is 160pts of dead Orkz a turn for the price of 240.

What is sad is Marine players will consider them dead because of this, even when other factions would still kill for a 240pt unit with Power Fists capable of mauling 2/3rds of a Boyz mob a turn.

Actually I consider them dead because they lost that AND the ability to advance + fire with no penalty.

Flamers don't roll to hit and hasn't the range gone up?

From the other thread

Eradicators can have either a heavy 1 +2 damage melta rifle or the regular assault flavor.

1 in every 3 can have a multimelta. It's a special weapon

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.

Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.

CS?

If I'm piecing together the correct leaks and they are true we now have eradicators at same old points more damage, is that actually an easier to use shoot twice as they do NOT have to shoot 1 unit with all 6 of them?
Plus they now pack MultiMeltas.

I really want GW to include some of whatever their deaigners are smoking in the next WD as it's got to be crazy.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

If Aggressors completely lose shoot twice instead of getting it for a 2CP strat, a unit of 6 is still doing 72 shots, 48 hits and 24 wounds for 20 dead Orkz a turn. That is 160pts of dead Orkz a turn for the price of 240.

What is sad is Marine players will consider them dead because of this, even when other factions would still kill for a 240pt unit with Power Fists capable of mauling 2/3rds of a Boyz mob a turn.

Seriously this. A unit of 6 Crisis Suits with triple BCs costs 324 points to accomplish the same number of dead Orkz. They have the same T, W, Ld, save as the Aggressors. They have worse BS, WS and A. And they have 3" of extra movement and fly compared to Aggressors. So Fly and 3" of movement is apparently worth more than 14 points per model for an Aggressor.

Crisis Suits aren't really good to begin with though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits aren't really good to begin with though.

But are they 84 points too expensive not good? Or are Aggressors massively undercosted for their firepower relative to their closest comparison in terms of defensive statline and inflicted damage even without being able to shoot twice?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits aren't really good to begin with though.

But are they 84 points too expensive not good? Or are Aggressors massively undercosted for their firepower relative to their closest comparison in terms of defensive statline and inflicted damage even without being able to shoot twice?

Aggressors are dead to Slayer because he can't move, advance and shoot with them without suffering that horrible -1 to hit....which puts them at BS4. Your Crisis suits were already hitting on 4s to begin with

This just underlines the point I made, certain Marine players will consider Aggressors dead because they are no longer deleting an entire horde of Ork boyz in a single turn while other factions would clamor for a unit to be as good as aggressors currently are, let alone how ridiculous they were prior.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits aren't really good to begin with though.

But are they 84 points too expensive not good? Or are Aggressors massively undercosted for their firepower relative to their closest comparison in terms of defensive statline and inflicted damage even without being able to shoot twice?

UM yeah probably. A unit with BS4+ with a bunch of shooting weapons is usually not going to be good without even a modicum of support. I've been saying they should've been BS3+ to begin with and adjust from there. FLY is good but without shooting not as good as it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits aren't really good to begin with though.

But are they 84 points too expensive not good? Or are Aggressors massively undercosted for their firepower relative to their closest comparison in terms of defensive statline and inflicted damage even without being able to shoot twice?

Aggressors are dead to Slayer because he can't move, advance and shoot with them without suffering that horrible -1 to hit....which puts them at BS4. Your Crisis suits were already hitting on 4s to begin with

This just underlines the point I made, certain Marine players will consider Aggressors dead because they are no longer deleting an entire horde of Ork boyz in a single turn while other factions would clamor for a unit to be as good as aggressors currently are, let alone how ridiculous they were prior.

They lost two rules and for the record I was using the Advance and Fire rule a lot more playing Carcharodons, thanks.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Or are Aggressors massively undercosted for their firepower relative to their closest comparison in terms of defensive statline and inflicted damage even without being able to shoot twice?

They definitely are.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.

Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.

CS?

If I'm piecing together the correct leaks and they are true we now have eradicators at same old points more damage, is that actually an easier to use shoot twice as they do NOT have to shoot 1 unit with all 6 of them?
Plus they now pack MultiMeltas.

I really want GW to include some of whatever their deaigners are smoking in the next WD as it's got to be crazy.

Photo leaks show that to shoot twice its still one single target unit and they are Core.
Multimelta swap is free for each 3rd Eradicator

Now we wait to see how they are further boosted by strats

Well unless TO's are going to ban Eradicators vehicals just got squatted.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.

Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.

^^^^This. 6 eradicators double tapping against a Fellblade (T9, 2+) in tactical doctrine average 9.333 wounds, make them Salamanders it jumps to 14. That's a 33% increase just for green paint. All rules that break the (already bad) wounding table need to go.

Still good to see they can no longer advance and double tap. And all I can say for aggressors losing double tap is: .

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.

Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.

^^^^This. 6 eradicators double tapping against a Fellblade (T9, 2+) in tactical doctrine average 9.333 wounds, make them Salamanders it jumps to 14. That's a 33% increase just for green paint. All rules that break the (already bad) wounding table need to go.

Still good to see they can no longer advance and double tap. And all I can say for aggressors losing double tap is: .

Is that including the new rifles that are Damage D6+2 at non melta range and D6+4 in melta range.
So 8 D6+2 shots plus 8D6 shots from the Free MultiMeltas.

Also someone said their was a strategum to make a unit BS2

This just sounds like insanity. Base damage is 16 wounds to a knight for 240 points with no buffs doctorines or chapter bonuses WTAF GW?

SemperMortis wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crisis Suits aren't really good to begin with though.

But are they 84 points too expensive not good? Or are Aggressors massively undercosted for their firepower relative to their closest comparison in terms of defensive statline and inflicted damage even without being able to shoot twice?

Aggressors are dead to Slayer because he can't move, advance and shoot with them without suffering that horrible -1 to hit....which puts them at BS4. Your Crisis suits were already hitting on 4s to begin with

Hitting on 4s but we make up for it with that extra point of strength on the gun, in this situation at least. Equal damage as each other at T4, Marines superior at T3- and T6-7 and T10+, Tau better at T5 and T8-9.

This just underlines the point I made, certain Marine players will consider Aggressors dead because they are no longer deleting an entire horde of Ork boyz in a single turn while other factions would clamor for a unit to be as good as aggressors currently are, let alone how ridiculous they were prior.

Definitely. Aggressors are still a horde killer, they just now are no longer able to put out enough wounds to kill two maxed out horde units in one player turn.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
With eradicators still getting that amount of firepower and aggressors gone, I think that we are going to see a lot more horde lists.

If Aggressors completely lose shoot twice instead of getting it for a 2CP strat, a unit of 6 is still doing 72 shots, 48 hits and 24 wounds for 20 dead Orkz a turn. That is 160pts of dead Orkz a turn for the price of 240.

What is sad is Marine players will consider them dead because of this, even when other factions would still kill for a 240pt unit with Power Fists capable of mauling 2/3rds of a Boyz mob a turn.

Which is half of what they did.

Previously if I left even a single one alive, it could eat my gants easily. Now it is a bit more forgiving, I can counter that.

Sally CT needs to change to +1 wound with flamers reroll 1's to hit and wound for meltas. +1 to wound on meltas is stupid

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Sally CT needs to change to +1 wound with flamers reroll 1's to hit and wound for meltas. +1 to wound on meltas is stupid

Yeah 240 points of Salamander eradicators outside of melta range with obly the +1 to wound do 21 wounds to a T8, 5+ invulnerable save.

Ice_can wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators can still double tap if they did NOT advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aggressors LOST double tap.

So agressors finally got nerfed but eradicators are still broken, suppose that's about a score draw for balance, hopefully GW don't take another year or so to fix eradicators.

Eradicators don't bug me as much as salamander Eradicators.

Giving them 6 models and CS will be nuts if they don't strip out some doctrines.

^^^^This. 6 eradicators double tapping against a Fellblade (T9, 2+) in tactical doctrine average 9.333 wounds, make them Salamanders it jumps to 14. That's a 33% increase just for green paint. All rules that break the (already bad) wounding table need to go.

Still good to see they can no longer advance and double tap. And all I can say for aggressors losing double tap is: .

Is that including the new rifles that are Damage D6+2 at non melta range and D6+4 in melta range.
So 8 D6+2 shots plus 8D6 shots from the Free MultiMeltas.

Also someone said their was a strategum to make a unit BS2

This just sounds like insanity. Base damage is 16 wounds to a knight for 240 points with no buffs doctorines or chapter bonuses WTAF GW?

No, that's the assault version. The heavy rifles do 12.222 for everyone else, 18.333 for Salamanders, outside of melta range, and without additional buffs (no bonus AP, if you get within 24 turn one I screwed up bad). Not doing the math with the multi-meltas, as I fear it would depress me.

Someone did the maths in the news and roumers thread with vulkan 1 6 man unit can 1 shot an Acastus class Knight which is 850 points