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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Deceptively added. Right. I made a list. I made no judgements on the items that list. It's you who has a stick up your ass and can't handle when someone doesn't tow the line so you come in like a giant donkey-cave. You don't discuss. You just pretend to be high and mighty and force gak down people's throats.

Couldn’t answer the question or provide a quote? Color me surprised! Not like I literally predicted that outcome before you responded haha. You don’t have a point, just a bunch of personal attacks like I said, and that post confirms it.

You seem way too worked up. Go take a breather, detach yourself from your personal collection, come back when you can at least attempt to formulate an argument that isn’t inherently dishonest or just a string of personal attacks. It’s just a game pal.

Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Deceptively added. Right. I made a list. I made no judgements on the items that list. It's you who has a stick up your ass and can't handle when someone doesn't tow the line so you come in like a giant donkey-cave. You don't discuss. You just pretend to be high and mighty and force gak down people's throats.

Couldn’t answer the question or provide a quote? Color me surprised! Not like I literally predicted that outcome before you responded haha. You don’t have a point, just a bunch of personal attacks like I said, and that post confirms it.

You seem way too worked up. Go take a breather, detach yourself from your personal collection, come back when you can at least attempt to formulate an argument that isn’t inherently dishonest or just a string of personal attacks. It’s just a game pal.

Weird, you're in the right when you string personal attacks against Karol however.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

we must wait and see, doesn't matter that they now once more stand head and shoulders above the rest because they lost 1 CM in height...
Especially compared to the other dexes...that are as of yet once again not simultaniously updated..

Dudeface wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Deceptively added. Right. I made a list. I made no judgements on the items that list. It's you who has a stick up your ass and can't handle when someone doesn't tow the line so you come in like a giant donkey-cave. You don't discuss. You just pretend to be high and mighty and force gak down people's throats.

Couldn’t answer the question or provide a quote? Color me surprised! Not like I literally predicted that outcome before you responded haha. You don’t have a point, just a bunch of personal attacks like I said, and that post confirms it.

You seem way too worked up. Go take a breather, detach yourself from your personal collection, come back when you can at least attempt to formulate an argument that isn’t inherently dishonest or just a string of personal attacks. It’s just a game pal.

Weird, you're in the right when you string personal attacks against Karol however.

I didn’t string any personal attacks against Karol. I put forward that we don’t need to be comparing every single thing 40k related to polish boarding school in every single thread, as it’s a ridiculous analogy at the best of times. A sentiment many many people have echoed. In fact I think it’s me echoing others in this case. Of course however you’re so beyond impartiality here that you will literally defend anyone or anything defending Marines, to the point that you took the side of the guy literally saying “Eradicators should have been buffed because in polish sports school, being good is never enough you can always be better”. Weird that you think anyone would ever take you guys seriously after that.

 Nitro Zeus wrote:


I didn’t string any personal attacks against Karol. I put forward that we don’t need to be comparing every single thing 40k related to polish boarding school in every single thread, as it’s a ridiculous analogy at the best of times. A sentiment many many people have echoed. In fact I think it’s me echoing others in this case. Of course however you’re so beyond impartiality here that you will literally defend anyone or anything defending Marines, to the point that you took the side of the guy literally saying “Eradicators should have been buffed because in polish sports school, being good is never enough you can always be better”. Weird that you think anyone would ever take you guys seriously after that.

And when you string insults against Xeno? You're 100% a hypocrite.

Friendly reminder: Rule number one, everyone.

If you're feeling salty, take a breather, take a minute to calm down, and post when you're not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

Just answer. If you want to add nuance, that's great! I'd like the overall opinion, and not nitty gritty on each unit, but caveats, exceptions, etc. in your answer are fine. I'd like to know, though.

This thread has generated a huge load of reports. Given the choice between me going through all of them and deleting them one by one and issuing warnings, or stuff being cut out and stopping here, I think we'd all much prefer the latter here, thanks!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

Just answer. If you want to add nuance, that's great! I'd like the overall opinion, and not nitty gritty on each unit, but caveats, exceptions, etc. in your answer are fine. I'd like to know, though.

Appreciate it's not directed at me, but as a layman I feel that the marine codex is still going to be at the top, there are only really 2 problem units in eradicators and bladeguard, the latter less so.

On the other hand I think the powerless overall is less astronomical compared to the last version and is something that should be possible to play against with fewer "eurgh" moments caused by lopsided rules stacking, I.e. fight twice smash captains who then fight again on death etc.

I also personally feel eradocators need a rules change, points won't cut it atm.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

hmmph fair enough.

i still doubt the overall somewhat minor nerfs (except aggressors and by god that piece of gak unit deserved the shafting) were a bit too lenient, otoh the core issue remains that the groundwork SM groundwork is still head and shoulders above the rest of the 8th dex users for the forseable future, including also factions that got severly impaired due to their design cue GSC and Tau. Frankly, we would probably have a lot less issues, if we actually knew the groundwork for all factions , aka would have all dexes in an updated state, but as is, eradicators are just the new agrressor except +1 in most cases and i think the ammount of salt in regards of that is justifyable as is questioning the remaining existence of doctrines and super doctrines.

However eradicators as an dedicated AT unit, managing to surpress basically the use of any vehicle without an decent invul IS a massive issue, because not every faction has a handy dual armory like chaos full of invul having cheapish vehicles, and for some factions like guard, such vehicles are signature units.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

Just answer. If you want to add nuance, that's great! I'd like the overall opinion, and not nitty gritty on each unit, but caveats, exceptions, etc. in your answer are fine. I'd like to know, though.

Appreciate it's not directed at me, but as a layman I feel that the marine codex is still going to be at the top, there are only really 2 problem units in eradicators and bladeguard, the latter less so.

On the other hand I think the powerless overall is less astronomical compared to the last version and is something that should be possible to play against with fewer "eurgh" moments caused by lopsided rules stacking, I.e. fight twice smash captains who then fight again on death etc.

I also personally feel eradocators need a rules change, points won't cut it atm.

Points would do it, but it would have to be a big hit. They need to be 60 PPM minimum with their current rules. That would make a six man squad 360 points, a unit that can kill a 360 point tank in a single round of shooting should at least be as expensive as the tank. But if we're doing rules, I'd say losing double tap would do it, but maybe be too much.

The problem is gw always makes things worse by adding more rules. When I first saw the stats for the heavy meltas I thought "Holy crap!", then I realized that since they were heavy weapons they would always be hitting on 4s if they moved. Then I saw the strategem that makes any infantry unit that moved count as standing still.

You can mess about with Eradicators as part of a mixed DW unit as well

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

we must wait and see, doesn't matter that they now once more stand head and shoulders above the rest because they lost 1 CM in height...
Especially compared to the other dexes...that are as of yet once again not simultaniously updated..

Be a lot of fun like 8th was for factions like Orkz and GSC who get to wait over a year for a codex to bring them up to par with the Marines. Especially for those factions who then wait a year only to find their codex isn't as good and then SMv9.2 comes out and blows them up to obscene amounts of power again.

 Mr Morden wrote:
You can mess about with Eradicators as part of a mixed DW unit as well

Spoiler:

INDOMITOR KILL TEAMComprising warriors wearing the heavier Gravis variant of Mk X, Indomitor Kill Teams are mobile bastions capable of unleashing the firepower of a squadron of battle tanks� Before them, hordes of xenos and monstrous beasts alike are torn apart�An Indomitor Kill Team contains: 1 Heavy Intercessor Sergeant; 4 Heavy Intercessors (see Codex: Space Marines – Heavy Intercessor Squad). You can add any 5 of the following models to this unit:• 1 Heavy Intercessor (see Codex: Space Marines – Heavy Intercessor Squad)• 1 Aggressor (see Codex: Space Marines – Aggressor Squad)• 1 Inceptor (see Codex: Space MarinesInceptor Squad)• 1 Eradicator (see Codex: Space Marines – Eradicator Squad)

Only Eradicators in this unit can shoot twice when this unit uses the Total Obliteration ability.

Weird, I kind of like it but I don't understand why you would? The rest of them in there is cool though.

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
You can mess about with Eradicators as part of a mixed DW unit as well

Spoiler:

INDOMITOR KILL TEAMComprising warriors wearing the heavier Gravis variant of Mk X, Indomitor Kill Teams are mobile bastions capable of unleashing the firepower of a squadron of battle tanks� Before them, hordes of xenos and monstrous beasts alike are torn apart�An Indomitor Kill Team contains: 1 Heavy Intercessor Sergeant; 4 Heavy Intercessors (see Codex: Space Marines – Heavy Intercessor Squad). You can add any 5 of the following models to this unit:• 1 Heavy Intercessor (see Codex: Space Marines – Heavy Intercessor Squad)• 1 Aggressor (see Codex: Space Marines – Aggressor Squad)• 1 Inceptor (see Codex: Space MarinesInceptor Squad)• 1 Eradicator (see Codex: Space Marines – Eradicator Squad)

Only Eradicators in this unit can shoot twice when this unit uses the Total Obliteration ability.

Weird, I kind of like it but I don't understand why you would? The rest of them in there is cool though.

The unit gets the following keywords -Infantry, Core, Primaris, Mk X Gravis, Kill Team, Indomito - might matter for strats? Not sure

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

Just answer. If you want to add nuance, that's great! I'd like the overall opinion, and not nitty gritty on each unit, but caveats, exceptions, etc. in your answer are fine. I'd like to know, though.

I'll answer with a question. What would you think of the book if Eradicators weren't in it?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daedalus, general question:

What do you think the power level of Marines are, relative to other Codecs? Just an overall opinion.

What answer would make you happy? People aren't allowed to have nuanced opinions here. Either you think everything is fething terrible or you're a white knight. There's no room for discussion in between.

It literally doesn't matter what answer I give, because people don't fething bother to read a post unless it starts with "MARINES ARE SUPER DUPER STRONG".

Just answer. If you want to add nuance, that's great! I'd like the overall opinion, and not nitty gritty on each unit, but caveats, exceptions, etc. in your answer are fine. I'd like to know, though.

I'll answer with a question. What would you think of the book if Eradicators weren't in it?

It'd still be too strong, relative to the other Codecs.

I mean, you've got people saying "Aggressors aren't worth it anymore," when they get 7-12 shots (with Blast, so flat 12 against hordes) in the shooting phase and still have a bunch of Powerfist attacks in melee, while being a very durable unit. And the thing is, relative to some of the other Space Marine options, they might even be right!

There are some truly bonkers units like Eradicators, but most Space Marine units are, while not so nuts, aggressively costed for all they can do.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It'd still be too strong, relative to the other Codecs.

I mean, you've got people saying "Aggressors aren't worth it anymore," when they get 7-12 shots (with Blast, so flat 12 against hordes) in the shooting phase and still have a bunch of Powerfist attacks in melee, while being a very durable unit. And the thing is, relative to some of the other Space Marine options, they might even be right!

There are some truly bonkers units like Eradicators, but most Space Marine units are, while not so nuts, aggressively costed for all they can do.

And I'd agree with you, but my too strong is, "can I beat them and not feel screwed over?". If I can answer yes to that then I think the book is headed in a good direction.

With the FAQs out already it looks like the named CMs got nerfed. There is nothing else much of note on the Salamander end so Eradicators will still be silly for a while.

3 Aggressors get 36 shots against horde for 24 hits and 12 wounds. Against boyz thats 10 dead Boyz. 135pts kills 80. That is pretty damn good, if its in tactical turn its 96.

In CC Those 3 aggressors get 13 attacks on the charge at S8 AP-3 Flat 2 dmg. hitting on 4s.

3 Meganobz get 12 shots, for 4 hits and 2 wounds against Ork boyz for 1.68ish dead boyz.

In CC those 3 meganobz get 9 attacks at S10 -3AP D3 dmg hitting on 4s. if you want to get rid of their shooting entirely and give them a a pair of Saws each they go up to 12 attacks.

So the Space Marines go to anti-horde unit is as good as my Ork Elite melee unit.

bAlaNcEd

One thing that is also noteworthy with Eradicators (just to put it up for discussion): with the ability to take a Multimelta for only +10 points a 3 man squad has, even after taking 8 wounds (2 losses, last dude at 1 wound), still 50% firepower. A 6 man squad remains at 50% after taking 14 wounds (4 losses, one guy at 1 wound). That's also pretty impressive for a 130-140 points unit (factoring in the MM).

I just note it adressing the mention that the doubleshooting ability etc. is not that bad, since doubletapping is mostly overkill. I see instead that with the buffs to Melters and the MM they can perform pretty well even when outside of Melterrange, without rerolls and/or when they already took losses.
That last dude of an almost deleted squad still shoots 4 times, hits 2.66, wounds a Chimera/Wyvern/Basilisk/Manticore 1.77 times, making an average of 9.77 damage in Meltarange. Almost enough to still shoot back the points of his whole unit. If he gets some sort of rerolls or is just a bit lucky, its sufficient to kill a Basilisk (125 points minimum).

Also as I mentioned in the Guard tactics: IG has the problem of not only providing a lot of optimal targets for them in the form of Vehicles without Invulnarability save (and lots of them also T6-T7), but even if we go full Infantry, Eradicators are pretty good at killing of our big boys: 3 Eradicators with MM without any rerolls, chapter etc. kill 2.96 slabshield Bullgryn inside of meltarange and 2.18 outside. So even pure footsloggers provide enough targets for them to shoot back their points in 1.5-2 shooting phases.
Also two of our best tank options (Punisher and Demolisher), only have 24'' range, which was fine when Meltas had few shots and had to get close, but those are now in trouble.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One thing that is also noteworthy with Eradicators (just to put it up for discussion): with the ability to take a Multimelta for only +10 points a 3 man squad has, even after taking 8 wounds (2 losses, last dude at 1 wound), still 50% firepower. A 6 man squad remains at 50% after taking 14 wounds (4 losses, one guy at 1 wound). That's also pretty impressive for a 130-140 points unit (factoring in the MM).

I just note it adressing the mention that the doubleshooting ability etc. is not that bad, since doubletapping is mostly overkill. I see instead that with the buffs to Melters and the MM they can perform pretty well even when outside of Melterrange, without rerolls and/or when they already took losses.
That last dude of an almost deleted squad still shoots 4 times, hits 2.66, wounds a Chimera/Wyvern/Basilisk/Manticore 1.77 times, making an average of 9.77 damage in Meltarange. Almost enough to still shoot back the points of his whole unit. If he gets some sort of rerolls or is just a bit lucky, its sufficient to kill a Basilisk (125 points minimum).

Also as I mentioned in the Guard tactics: IG has the problem of not only providing a lot of optimal targets for them in the form of Vehicles without Invulnarability save (and lots of them also T6-T7), but even if we go full Infantry, Eradicators are pretty good at killing of our big boys: 3 Eradicators with MM without any rerolls, chapter etc. kill 2.96 slabshield Bullgryn inside of meltarange and 2.18 outside. So even pure footsloggers provide enough targets for them to shoot back their points in 1.5-2 shooting phases.
Also two of our best tank options (Punisher and Demolisher), only have 24'' range, which was fine when Meltas had few shots and had to get close, but those are now in trouble.

Whats the best longer-range solution for guard? I'm not overly familiar with them off top of my head. Are basilisk still any use here or are they not enough damage per wound?

I just mentioned the Basilisk since a lot of players have one, you can put in a Chimera, Manticore, Hydra, Tauros instead, they are all as vulnerable.

@LR: the Battlecannon is also very good. It's just that regarding damage output Punisher and Demolishers were the best, but are now really in danger since 24" is suddenly close enough, at least for Eradicators

Dudeface wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
You can mess about with Eradicators as part of a mixed DW unit as well

Spoiler:

INDOMITOR KILL TEAMComprising warriors wearing the heavier Gravis variant of Mk X, Indomitor Kill Teams are mobile bastions capable of unleashing the firepower of a squadron of battle tanks� Before them, hordes of xenos and monstrous beasts alike are torn apart�An Indomitor Kill Team contains: 1 Heavy Intercessor Sergeant; 4 Heavy Intercessors (see Codex: Space Marines – Heavy Intercessor Squad). You can add any 5 of the following models to this unit:• 1 Heavy Intercessor (see Codex: Space Marines – Heavy Intercessor Squad)• 1 Aggressor (see Codex: Space Marines – Aggressor Squad)• 1 Inceptor (see Codex: Space MarinesInceptor Squad)• 1 Eradicator (see Codex: Space Marines – Eradicator Squad)

Only Eradicators in this unit can shoot twice when this unit uses the Total Obliteration ability.

Weird, I kind of like it but I don't understand why you would? The rest of them in there is cool though.

Ablative wounds for Eradicators, I guess. Also means they're troops, so they get Obsec.

Unfortunately GW have completely killed off Deathwatch as a faction now, so the new killteams don't really do enough to make them viable. I doubt you'll be seeing Deathwatch in any tournaments for 9th edition.

SemperMortis wrote:
3 Aggressors get 36 shots against horde for 24 hits and 12 wounds. Against boyz thats 10 dead Boyz. 135pts kills 80. That is pretty damn good, if its in tactical turn its 96.

In CC Those 3 aggressors get 13 attacks on the charge at S8 AP-3 Flat 2 dmg. hitting on 4s.

3 Meganobz get 12 shots, for 4 hits and 2 wounds against Ork boyz for 1.68ish dead boyz.

In CC those 3 meganobz get 9 attacks at S10 -3AP D3 dmg hitting on 4s. if you want to get rid of their shooting entirely and give them a a pair of Saws each they go up to 12 attacks.

So the Space Marines go to anti-horde unit is as good as my Ork Elite melee unit.

bAlaNcEd

No. They do not get 36 shots. That is the maximum. They would kill 8 or 64 points.

You also mentioned the MANZ melee, but you didn't do the math.

12 * .5 * .833 = 5 wounds through armor -- equates to two Aggressors and 1 with a single wound left. 2.66 Aggressors is 120 points.
Those Aggressors likewise do -- 13 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 2.9 wounds through armor. At D2 that is a 1.66 MANZ or 66 points.

136 kills 120
135 kills 66

ORKS OP

Niiru wrote:
Unfortunately GW have completely killed off Deathwatch as a faction now, so the new killteams don't really do enough to make them viable. I doubt you'll be seeing Deathwatch in any tournaments for 9th edition.

What do you mean? I thought Deathwatch gets access to most (all?) of the Space Marine Codex now plus they will retain their special stuff. Isn't that making them more viable?

a_typical_hero wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Unfortunately GW have completely killed off Deathwatch as a faction now, so the new killteams don't really do enough to make them viable. I doubt you'll be seeing Deathwatch in any tournaments for 9th edition.

What do you mean? I thought Deathwatch gets access to most (all?) of the Space Marine Codex now plus they will retain their special stuff. Isn't that making them more viable?

They have lost access to SIA almost entirely (only standard bolters and combi weapons have access to it), and it got nerfed anyway.

Terminators, primaris, and bikers have zero access to SIA in any way, shape or form.

Frag Cannons completely nerfed into the ground. Effectively legended.

(Probably fixed in supplement) Deathwatch are the only army to completely lose all their relics, stratagems and warlord traits.

So they DO gain access to the marine codex. But they lost ALL of their special stuff, other than kill teams. Which are... ok, but nowhere near enough to make up for what you would otherwise gain by being (for example) dark angels deathwing (1+/4++/6+++ 3W only getting wounded on 4+ even against S12 weaponry).

The loss of relics and stratagems will likely be fixed in the supplement, but the SIA change alone, along with the weak legion trait and loss of their unique weapon options, means you're always better off taking any other chapter.

Yeah, deathwatch looks pretty bad. Though the example you chose is probably the strongest thing in the new book aside from eradicators, so it's a little misleading. I kinda doubt that deathwing terminators with built-in transhuman are really going to be a thing long-term.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No. They do not get 36 shots. That is the maximum. They would kill 8 or 64 points.

The bit you quoted literally says against hordes.

So yeah, against hordes they get a flat 36 shots.

And even when they don't, and get just those 8 kills, 50% return on a non-specialist unit (ie one that has a pretty durable defensive statline and powerfists) is pretty darned good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You also mentioned the MANZ melee, but you didn't do the math.

12 * .5 * .833 = 5 wounds through armor -- equates to two Aggressors and 1 with a single wound left. 2.66 Aggressors is 120 points.
Those Aggressors likewise do -- 13 * .5 * .666 * .666 = 2.9 wounds through armor. At D2 that is a 1.66 MANZ or 66 points.

136 kills 120
135 kills 66

ORKS OP

Aggressors are wounding on 2s, as Meganobz are T4. Comparing the profiles, the Aggressors are getting an extra attack, the Meganobz get a 5+ save, and otherwise the rolls they need are identical. Both hit on 4s, both wound on 2s, both do 2 damage against a 3 wound profile.

So, on average the Meganobz are actually only doing 46% better in the first round of combat, in exchange for having no shooting whatsoever, and having a 4" move on a unit that is completely useless outside of melee. And that's before getting into doctrines, chapter tactics, and buff abilities, which generally favor the Marines in this matchup.

Still seems to me like the Aggressors are plenty useful. I'd jump for joy to have that profile on my Tyrant Guard.