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Trukks and Battlewagons are much better than Repulsors my man. The Repulsor is literally over twice the price of the Battlewagon and more than five times the price of a Trukk. Do you think it's five times as durable as a Trukk? It's also slower than either a battlewagon or a trukk, which is a pretty big deal for a transport. Give the Battlewagon an 'ard case and it is just slightly less durable than the Repulsor while losing the ability to fire from it, still for 135 points. 1 CP to make it objectively more durable than the Repulsor.
The guns do not make it better either. If you're using it to caddy dudes to a point you're vastly overpaying for that purpose and by putting a unit of Aggressors in it you're making it a huge 600ish point fire magnet that won't last a turn of shooting against many lists
The BW is actually 155 because no one in the real world takes it without the rolla. 135 points for a pure transport is useless garbage, with some punch in CC it's a legit unit. The only list that placed in a GT that actually had BWs of all kinds had two bonebreaka with no cargo inside, just for the threat in CC.
Repulsors are utterly expensive but they also got tons of firepower, and in an army with lots of T5 models they add some redundancy. If SM get 1st turn they'll likely do serious damage and many armies have hard times even to wreck a single one of them by shooting. Most of the top ork lists can't reliably kill one of them outside melee. The BW, like all CC units, will likely fight 1-2 turns at most, 0 if it gets killed before reaching the target.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 08:19:50
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
That's not the point of transports in 9th. Right now transports are good because you can grab a midfield objective Turn 1 and if your opponent pops the transport your ObSec guys jump out and hold the objective anyway. Alternatively, a bunch of more specialised, more dangerous guys jump out in midfield. If they leave the transport alone you can still jump said guys out next turn and, as a bonus, use the transport to charge into and tie up enemy units in Turn 2 while getting the points for holding the objective. A lot of this utlitiy is lost on SM because they still get to double-tap if they don't move so they don't quite get the same advantage as some other armies...except Impulsors have a rule allowing you to jump out after you move so SM, yet again, have a way around a minor drawback.
Void__Dragon wrote: How do aggressors help against Harlequins? Harlequins are so fast that they can easily dictate the terms of engagement and proceed to wipe your Aggressor squad off the board with a single unit of Skyweavers charging into them. With murderous entrance and troupe master rerolls or, in a pinch, the +1 to wound Frozen Stars strat, that almost wipes a squad of Aggressors off the map. A single kitted out smash troupe master can also just about do it.
Because you don't start them on the board waiting to get killed but outflank them? so you get to shoot and kill something before you die.
Ofc, they die. Everything can die, especially against a glass cannon army like Harlequins.
The BW is actually 155 because no one in the real world takes it without the rolla.
And is still less than half the price of a Repulsor.
The only list that placed in a GT that actually had BWs of all kinds had two bonebreaka with no cargo inside, just for the threat in CC.
By comparison, as far as I could find with a quick search not a single list that placed in a GT had a Repulsor.
And just so we're clear, I never claimed battlewagons are particularly good transports. Or good at all really. But they are not nearly as laughably overpriced as a Repulsor and the threat they pose in CC makes them more than just a caddy for something tough inside. It does carry the issue of having a bit of an identity crisis, but not nearly to the extent of the Repulsor.
Repulsors are utterly expensive but they also got tons of firepower, and in an army with lots of T5 models they add some redundancy. If SM get 1st turn they'll likely do serious damage and many armies have hard times even to wreck a single one of them by shooting. Most of the top ork lists can't reliably kill one of them outside melee. The BW, like all CC units, will likely fight 1-2 turns at most, 0 if it gets killed before reaching the target.
All of a Repulsor's shooting will on average kill 15 Boys, or 120 points, well below half of its cost. And that's in devastator doctrine as Iron Hands (so re-rolling hit rolls of 1), somehow in rapid fire range turn 1, me being too lazy to not give the grenades re-roll 1s to save time, and the Boys having no cover or KFF. If any of that is different then the numbers plummet.
Twenty pre-codex Necron Warriors in rapid fire range kill 13 Boys on average at 240 points. 17 pre-codex Necron Immortals with tesla cannons kill 19 with no buffs at 306 points (with mephrit in half range to make their guns AP1 they'd kill 23).
So against their best target arguably a Repulsor is outperformed by one of the worst armies in the game.
The Repulsor, in trying to be both a durable transport and a high volume of fire battle tank, fails at being acceptable at either role and even worse makes it a more attractive target. Its identity is flawed because it inherently puts all its eggs in one basket.
Might want to let all the players who are considerably better than you at the game placing in GTs using them then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ordana wrote: Because you don't start them on the board waiting to get killed but outflank them? so you get to shoot and kill something before you die.
Ofc, they die. Everything can die, especially against a glass cannon army like Harlequins.
Idk man, having less on the board when if the Harlequins go first they can easily turn one charge and kill pretty much anything that isn't a heavy vehicle might not work out too well (since on your first turn your ability to project threat will be even more limited) but it's not a match-up I'm familiar with. And for what it's worth, even with full chapter master re-rolls and lieutenant reroll 1s to wound you're only killing two bikes on average if they pop their 3++ strat (and they can do it to two bike units a battle round lmao).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/08 10:20:58
The BW is actually 155 because no one in the real world takes it without the rolla.
And is still less than half the price of a Repulsor.
The only list that placed in a GT that actually had BWs of all kinds had two bonebreaka with no cargo inside, just for the threat in CC.
By comparison, as far as I could find with a quick search not a single list that placed in a GT had a Repulsor.
And just so we're clear, I never claimed battlewagons are particularly good transports. Or good at all really. But they are not nearly as laughably overpriced as a Repulsor and the threat they pose in CC makes them more than just a caddy for something tough inside. It does carry the issue of having a bit of an identity crisis, but not nearly to the extent of the Repulsor.
Repulsors are utterly expensive but they also got tons of firepower, and in an army with lots of T5 models they add some redundancy. If SM get 1st turn they'll likely do serious damage and many armies have hard times even to wreck a single one of them by shooting. Most of the top ork lists can't reliably kill one of them outside melee. The BW, like all CC units, will likely fight 1-2 turns at most, 0 if it gets killed before reaching the target.
All of a Repulsor's shooting will on average kill 15 Boys, or 120 points, well below half of its cost. And that's in devastator doctrine as Iron Hands (so re-rolling hit rolls of 1), somehow in rapid fire range turn 1, me being too lazy to not give the grenades re-roll 1s to save time, and the Boys having no cover or KFF. If any of that is different then the numbers plummet.
And a BW kills 0 points of enemy units in shooting as it has none. That's why it costs half points. Full kitted with harmless ork weapons and upgrades it can jump to 230 points, 250 for the bonebreaka, with very little killyness added to the model.
120 points back for a 300+ points transport means that it has to survive two turns to be good, getting most of its points back and giving a ride to slower units. Against most armies that's exactly what it does actually.
Might want to let all the players who are considerably better than you at the game placing in GTs using them then.
With a snip like that, I can see why all you had to follow up with was a false appeal to authority. Transporting something great enough to make up for transports being bad - or a "transport" that is good enough on it's own to used if it was transporting or not - doesn't make transports as a class good. How many of those players you're trying to speak for transported Assault Marines in a Rhino? Terminators in a Land Raider? Anything they had another decent movement option for? I know, I know, you snipped all the reasoning because you didn't want to argue on the merits, just sneer down your nose at someone. I'll let you get back to it.
How many points does a Repulsor kill in close combat? 0 you say? Sounds like it's time to cut the price of a Repulsor in half.
Doesn't the Repulsor shoot in close Combat now? Or are all of its weapons blast?
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
How many points does a Repulsor kill in close combat? 0 you say? Sounds like it's time to cut the price of a Repulsor in half.
Doesn't the Repulsor shoot in close Combat now? Or are all of its weapons blast?
No, it doesn't. You can't shoot in the Fight Phase. As pointed out we're already paying for the shooting it does do, and the XXXXX is half price because it "only" fights. But the Repulsor doesn't fight, does it? Certainly not as good as a XXXX will shoot and that didn't count.
How many points does a Repulsor kill in close combat? 0 you say? Sounds like it's time to cut the price of a Repulsor in half.
Doesn't the Repulsor shoot in close Combat now? Or are all of its weapons blast?
No, it doesn't. You can't shoot in the Fight Phase. As pointed out we're already paying for the shooting it does do, and the XXXXX is half price because it "only" fights. But the Repulsor doesn't fight, does it? Certainly not as good as a XXXX will shoot and that didn't count.
I perhaps was not clear but it can shoot at enemies in close combat with it? Correct?
BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE A Vehicle or Monster model can make attacks with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of� In such circumstances, Vehicle and Monster models can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit
A vehicle without ranged weapons can NEVER shoot - correct?
Does it not have a base close combat stat? Most vehicles have something (*)
(*) waiting for my 9th Ed Marine dex
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
How many points does a Repulsor kill in close combat? 0 you say? Sounds like it's time to cut the price of a Repulsor in half.
Doesn't the Repulsor shoot in close Combat now? Or are all of its weapons blast?
No, it doesn't. You can't shoot in the Fight Phase. As pointed out we're already paying for the shooting it does do, and the XXXXX is half price because it "only" fights. But the Repulsor doesn't fight, does it? Certainly not as good as a XXXX will shoot and that didn't count.
That's like, the king of semantics my man.
No, giving it credit for the shooting it already got credit for, while claiming only getting one phase of attacks out of the other is why it's half the points is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: I perhaps was not clear but it can shoot at enemies in close combat with it? Correct?
BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE A Vehicle or Monster model can make attacks with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of� In such circumstances, Vehicle and Monster models can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit
A vehicle without ranged weapons can NEVER shoot - correct?
Does it not have a base close combat stat? Most vehicles have something (*)
(*) waiting for my 9th Ed Marine dex
As I already mentioned and you're now pretending I didn't - If the shooting upgrades didn't count, why should the pitiful fight of a Repulsor? You want to say XXXXX is half the points because it's half the value, go for it. You want to say it's half because it doesn't get any shooting attacks while whistling to the sky hoping nobody remembers it's designed to have more fight attacks instead, I'm going to laugh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 12:27:27
How many points does a Repulsor kill in close combat? 0 you say? Sounds like it's time to cut the price of a Repulsor in half.
Irrelevant. Shooting is always (far) superior to close combat as typically you can shoot from turn 1 until the unit dies, so even the full 5 turns, while you can only fight 1-2 turns at most and typically after losing some wounds because you need to get into close combat range, which is waaaay smaller than ranged weapons range. Not even against the ideal target if the opponent screens it properly.
A BW need to move more than a turn and then charge what there's in its way. A repulsor can fire from turn 1 even against a target that is screened by other units.
In real life a BW will likely fight 0-2 turns, typically 1, while a repulsor will fire 0-5 turns, typically 2 or 3.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
cody.d. wrote: They kept their advance and fire with no penalty rule right?
No, they did not.
Really? That's interesting. So they lost both the fire twice and the advance with no penalties. Almost like GW realized what a mess of a unit they'd created.
You can almost hear the cheezy 12PM infomercial about them previously. "It slices, it dices etc etc etc."
I would argue that the fire twice while standing still was the problem. They are literally called "aggressors", and not "stand stillers". Rewarding them for standing still was always dumb.
Not sure why they removed the advance and fire without penalty rule--it perfectly fit what the intent obviously was for the unit: advance forward guns blazing then charge into combat with power fists.
cody.d. wrote: They kept their advance and fire with no penalty rule right?
No, they did not.
Really? That's interesting. So they lost both the fire twice and the advance with no penalties. Almost like GW realized what a mess of a unit they'd created.
You can almost hear the cheezy 12PM infomercial about them previously. "It slices, it dices etc etc etc."
I would argue that the fire twice while standing still was the problem. They are literally called "aggressors", and not "stand stillers". Rewarding them for standing still was always dumb.
Not sure why they removed the advance and fire without penalty rule--it perfectly fit what the intent obviously was for the unit: advance forward guns blazing then charge into combat with power fists.
Because GW doesn't know how to balance. And somehow just Eradicators know how to sit still and shoot twice instead of everyone else in Gravis armor. Consistency is too hard apparently.
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
And now we have confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about. Transports havnt been as good as they are right now for a long long time. Advancing a rhino on an objective means that to get you off it your opponent needs to kill the rhino then kill its contents. And when the rhino is empty, you can still use it to movement block or hold a backfield objective. Making the game Objective-centric instead of kill-centric made them super valuable.
cody.d. wrote: They kept their advance and fire with no penalty rule right?
No, they did not.
Really? That's interesting. So they lost both the fire twice and the advance with no penalties. Almost like GW realized what a mess of a unit they'd created.
You can almost hear the cheezy 12PM infomercial about them previously. "It slices, it dices etc etc etc."
I would argue that the fire twice while standing still was the problem. They are literally called "aggressors", and not "stand stillers". Rewarding them for standing still was always dumb.
Not sure why they removed the advance and fire without penalty rule--it perfectly fit what the intent obviously was for the unit: advance forward guns blazing then charge into combat with power fists.
Because GW doesn't know how to balance. And somehow just Eradicators know how to sit still and shoot twice instead of everyone else in Gravis armor. Consistency is too hard apparently.
It is annoying to see Eradicators in their current form. Anything that doubles firepower is really hard to balance on a unit. They should have just given them +1 to hit or to wound if they shoot the same target. Makes them more consistent, but reigns in the possible spike damage. Much easier to balance with points.
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
And now we have confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about. Transports havnt been as good as they are right now for a long long time. Advancing a rhino on an objective means that to get you off it your opponent needs to kill the rhino then kill its contents. And when the rhino is empty, you can still use it to movement block or hold a backfield objective. Making the game Objective-centric instead of kill-centric made them super valuable.
Dind ding ding
Exact same reason why the impulsor was in everyone and their mothers list in 8th. Now maybe less so coz fly and no 4++ (ohh nooo!)
Its was like a much betttr and cheaper rhino.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
With a snip like that, I can see why all you had to follow up with was a false appeal to authority. Transporting something great enough to make up for transports being bad - or a "transport" that is good enough on it's own to used if it was transporting or not - doesn't make transports as a class good. How many of those players you're trying to speak for transported Assault Marines in a Rhino? Terminators in a Land Raider? Anything they had another decent movement option for? I know, I know, you snipped all the reasoning because you didn't want to argue on the merits, just sneer down your nose at someone. I'll let you get back to it.
You don't use transports to move something that can already move properly. You use it on obsec units. I put naked CSM squads in rhinos or naked vanguards in a dunerider. Needing to assign two units to wipe me off of a point instead of only one is why transports are so good. Youre missing the fundamental reason why they are good and youre focusing on "transports move fast so i'll use them to bring units into assault as fast as possible".
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
And now we have confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about. Transports havnt been as good as they are right now for a long long time. Advancing a rhino on an objective means that to get you off it your opponent needs to kill the rhino then kill its contents. And when the rhino is empty, you can still use it to movement block or hold a backfield objective. Making the game Objective-centric instead of kill-centric made them super valuable.
Dunno about movement, but top players use them hidden behind walls as a +3" platform of launching attacks, like Nannavati does with his repentia (hides them in rhino, then launches out 9" + couple of miracle dice for a 27" charge threat range.
Transports are good. 300+ pt transports not so much. If people have a problem with the repulsor cost, they do have the impulsor still to transport their primaris.
As for the repulsor itself, as a Thousand Sons player I would trade it 100 times over with the silly land raider. Which kinda of says a lot when I would rather have what the marine players would rather shelf, but that's another question.
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
And now we have confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about. Transports havnt been as good as they are right now for a long long time. Advancing a rhino on an objective means that to get you off it your opponent needs to kill the rhino then kill its contents. And when the rhino is empty, you can still use it to movement block or hold a backfield objective. Making the game Objective-centric instead of kill-centric made them super valuable.
Dunno about movement, but top players use them hidden behind walls as a +3" platform of launching attacks, like Nannavati does with his repentia (hides them in rhino, then launches out 9" + couple of miracle dice for a 27" charge threat range.
Transports are good. 300+ pt transports not so much. If people have a problem with the repulsor cost, they do have the impulsor still to transport their primaris.
As for the repulsor itself, as a Thousand Sons player I would trade it 100 times over with the silly land raider. Which kinda of says a lot when I would rather have what the marine players would rather shelf, but that's another question.
Yeah, thats also a viable strategy but it existed in 8th too. My stygies admech had many turn one charge with 20 fulgurites. Thats the beauty of transports, theyre super versatile and the changes to the mission only made them better.
And yeah, seeing people bitch that the repulsor/centurions arent good enough makes me cringe as a chaos player. I'd swap my land raiders/obliterators for them anyday.
Sure they are. Maybe some open topped you can still shoot from aren’t, if you’re dragging around a very shooty unit protected by the transport stat line, but for the most part transports are bad. You give up 20-40% of the embarked troop’s opportunity every time they get in one.
Get in during the movement phase, move, no shooting no fighting (and units that would get in a transport are usually fight oriented), next turn move, get out, you still can’t fight very easily. You’re far better off using a shenanigan like deep strike or infiltrate etc. if possible.
And now we have confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about. Transports havnt been as good as they are right now for a long long time. Advancing a rhino on an objective means that to get you off it your opponent needs to kill the rhino then kill its contents. And when the rhino is empty, you can still use it to movement block or hold a backfield objective. Making the game Objective-centric instead of kill-centric made them super valuable.
Dunno about movement, but top players use them hidden behind walls as a +3" platform of launching attacks, like Nannavati does with his repentia (hides them in rhino, then launches out 9" + couple of miracle dice for a 27" charge threat range.
Transports are good. 300+ pt transports not so much. If people have a problem with the repulsor cost, they do have the impulsor still to transport their primaris.
As for the repulsor itself, as a Thousand Sons player I would trade it 100 times over with the silly land raider. Which kinda of says a lot when I would rather have what the marine players would rather shelf, but that's another question.
Those eyesores don't belong in a csm army. No way in hell would I trade my Achilles for one of those floating G.I. Joe knockoffs.
135pts for a vehicle that serves no purpose except as transport, has no guns, and even though its T7, is pretty easy to pop since its 4+. It has 6 attacks in CC but WS5+
So you are literally paying for transport capacity and not much else, so its a good transport and that is it, where as the repulsor can shoot a couple Battlewagons to death while dropping off its payload of infantry.
The main gun on the Repulsor does a whopping 1.78 wounds to a Battlewagon that hasn't been upgraded at all.
That Repulsor could fire 100 shots heavy onslaught gatling cannon at a Battlewagon and on average would only do about 15 wounds, failing to kill it.
The repulsor does not get 100 shots, and most of its shots are of lesser quality than the heavy onslaught gatling cannon. You're delusional my man.
And for a few extra points it upgrades its weapons as I mentioned above to become able to pop vehicles significantly easier. 4 S9 shots, 2.66 hits 1.77 wounds and 6.22 wounds on average a turn. The other guns add on a couple more wounds, a bit more if devastator doctrine is on (smaller benefit for tactical). Definitely not nearly as good as devastator marines using melta guns or the broken eradicators but still not anything to ignore. Plus, most of its weaponry is designed to function against different targets. You can go full anti-horde on it and pump out 5D6 or 30 shots against hordes from fragstorms, 18 onslaught shots S5 -1AP, 6 HB shots (Same as onslaught) and 2 krakstorm shots S6 -1AP. that works out to about 20 dead Ork boyz or 160pts. So its actually fairly decent at wiping out hordes, 46% return on investment when shooting at boyz.
So, the question I have for Marine players, would you like the option to take a stripped down version of the Repulsor for Gravis models? I'd be fine with that option. Stripped off all its weapons its 230pts, take away Power of the Machine Spirit and call it 200pts flat? 65pts more than the standard empty BW, but you also get +1 Toughness and +1 save as well as hover. Plus of course, removing all those weapons increases standard troop capacity. Probably go up to 15 or 16? So you can take a maxed out Gravis squad of 6 and either 3 extra Marines or 1 Extra Gravis model and a standard marine.
And now we have confirmation that you don't know what you're talking about. Transports havnt been as good as they are right now for a long long time. Advancing a rhino on an objective means that to get you off it your opponent needs to kill the rhino then kill its contents. And when the rhino is empty, you can still use it to movement block or hold a backfield objective. Making the game Objective-centric instead of kill-centric made them super valuable.
Definitely increased their worth in my opinion. If trukkz weren't so easy to pop, or performed some kind of purpose besides being a brick I would love to use them for Nobz if they get a price cut this edition. Be nice to have a trukk die, use the strat and buff nobz into 3+ save models
Something else I noticed on some screen grabs of the Codex, another change to Aggressors. Now instead of ONE weapon called a PAIR of Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets they're now equipped with TWO weapons called Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet. So if they get the Shoot One Weapon before dying thing or similar, they only get "half" their shooting, not the double gauntlet shooting.
14000
15000
4000 
Eldar- 4436 pts
