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Those eyesores don't belong in a csm army. No way in hell would I trade my Achilles for one of those floating G.I. Joe knockoffs.
What if we just gave its rules to the current land raider model?
The Achilles or the Repulsive?
Give the Chaos Land Raider the rules of the Repulsor to make it better.
I don't really want that because of the pain of getting through a shooting phase of a repulsor with its 45 weapons
With the loss of fly the Repulsive is just an ugly Land Raider with too many guns. I'd rather standard Land Raiders get T9, with csm getting weapon options besides the twin lascannons. A pair of Hades or Butchers would be nice.
Those eyesores don't belong in a csm army. No way in hell would I trade my Achilles for one of those floating G.I. Joe knockoffs.
What if we just gave its rules to the current land raider model?
The Achilles or the Repulsive?
Give the Chaos Land Raider the rules of the Repulsor to make it better.
I don't really want that because of the pain of getting through a shooting phase of a repulsor with its 45 weapons
With the loss of fly the Repulsive is just an ugly Land Raider with too many guns. I'd rather standard Land Raiders get T9, with csm getting weapon options besides the twin lascannons. A pair of Hades or
Butchers would be nice.
Agreed, i was thinking more as a temporary fix to help the LR a bit.
I wish we could get the legion/csm stuff on them. The weapons you listed, volkite, c-beams, the big plasma weapons, the malignatas, etc.
Those eyesores don't belong in a csm army. No way in hell would I trade my Achilles for one of those floating G.I. Joe knockoffs.
What if we just gave its rules to the current land raider model?
The Achilles or the Repulsive?
Give the Chaos Land Raider the rules of the Repulsor to make it better.
I don't really want that because of the pain of getting through a shooting phase of a repulsor with its 45 weapons
With the loss of fly the Repulsive is just an ugly Land Raider with too many guns. I'd rather standard Land Raiders get T9, with csm getting weapon options besides the twin lascannons. A pair of Hades or
Butchers would be nice.
Agreed, i was thinking more as a temporary fix to help the LR a bit.
I wish we could get the legion/csm stuff on them. The weapons you listed, volkite, c-beams, the big plasma weapons, the malignatas, etc.
Yeah, those would be nice, and make sense as well. Why wouldn't the Dark Mechanicus change the design? And why do csm have fewer Land Raider variants than loyalists when they stole all the stc's before heading for The Eye?
6 shots implies 3 Eradicators. 3 Eradicators with Heavy get 6 shots, 4 hits for 2.66 wounds, no armor save, 1 out of 6 will end up getting ramshackle and suffer 1 dmg instead of D6+2 So lets lower the wounds from 2.66 to 2.4 to make you happy. D6+2 x2 = 11dmg, so 3 Eradicators pop 1 trukk by themselves without too much trouble. Those trukkz also have no chance of killing 1 Eradicator or Gravis model during the entire game.
6 shots with heavy vs repulsor = 4 hits, 2 wounds no armor save so 11 dmg, Still alive. wounded, but very much alive. That repulsor in contrast is killing 2-3 Eradicators a turn.
9 Eradicators can't kill 2 repulsors because you would have to split fire which means no double tap.
There's still more to that picture.
Any buffs on Eradicators are wasted when shooting on Trukks, but not so in Repulsors. Even if you had to split a unit killing two Repulsors is not difficult if the opponent positioned them poorly.
Eradicators are great against most everything marines will bring today. They're terrible versus large model counts or cheap models. If Orks focus down anything that is good at hurting them they can effectively ignore Eradicators. Trukks don't need to kill anything - especially not if they're carting a DKK. A Forktress BB will soak a couple units giving the marines a choice between being rolled over or being swamped.
Smasha effectively wound Gravis on 2s - that's a 40 point model killing a 45 point model every turn if you have good firing lanes.
Ice_can wrote: So we are back to Agressors are trash but be happy Xeno players you got 12 inch flamers too.
So for only 45 points I can make a crisis suit with 2 flamers with -1AP. Oh joy such balance.
On a unit that can fly/ deep strike naturally and has ap -1 for the whole game? Wow...no real advantages here for the crisis suit. This is the problem. Mobility aint free. Plus it's a know fact crisis suits are not good.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ice_can wrote: So we are back to Agressors are trash but be happy Xeno players you got 12 inch flamers too.
So for only 45 points I can make a crisis suit with 2 flamers with -1AP. Oh joy such balance.
On a unit that can fly/ deep strike naturally and has ap -1 for the whole game? Wow...no real advantages here for the crisis suit. This is the problem. Mobility aint free. Plus it's a know fact crisis suits are not good.
So they're paying for buffs and not good, but agressors are also trash despite having even better stats and coating less points, that's before looking at the points for the 2 powerfists which crisis suits don't have.
And for a few extra points it upgrades its weapons as I mentioned above to become able to pop vehicles significantly easier. 4 S9 shots, 2.66 hits 1.77 wounds and 6.22 wounds on average a turn.
So now you've gotten rid of your still not very good but mostly mediocre 18 S5 AP1 1 damage shots for two lascannons and two 24" lascannons, making your over three hundred point unit still not good at anti-tank for its point cost but now also much worse at mulching through hordes.
The other guns add on a couple more wounds, a bit more if devastator doctrine is on (smaller benefit for tactical). Definitely not nearly as good as devastator marines using melta guns or the broken eradicators but still
not anything to ignore.
For its point cost its fairly anemic. A tank commander at a much lower point cost does almost as many wounds with its battle cannon alone if it fires twice. With a more proper anti-tank loadout like the demolisher cannon it does 12.7 wounds.
Three Lokhust Heavy Destroyers for 210 points (I think) do 9.33 wounds. Almost a hundred points less and from a unit most seem to think isn't very good.
Three Ridgerunners with no buffs on average do seven wounds with their lascannons at 210 points, and are much more durable for their cost than the repulsor, having 24 wounds with a 4+ and 6+++ for a squad of three at once again, over a hundred points less.
Plus, most of its weaponry is designed to function against different targets. You can go full anti-horde on it and pump out 5D6 or 30 shots against hordes from fragstorms, 18 onslaught shots S5 -1AP, 6 HB shots (Same as onslaught) and 2 krakstorm shots S6 -1AP. that works out to about 20 dead Ork boyz or 160pts. So its actually fairly decent at wiping out hordes, 46% return on investment when shooting at boyz.
Compare to five harlequin skyweavers who will kill on average 10 boys with their haywire cannon shooting, making back 32% of their points. They can then charge the boys, killing 7 more with no buffs. With 17 killed they've made back just shy of half their points cost back. And unlike the repulsor build you went with, they can threaten more than just hordes with their loadout and indeed, boys are actually some of their worst targets due to the high pen and damage 2 of their spears being wasted and their haywire effect doing nothing against them. About six of those would have haywired on average, with two of them being d3 mortals, so on average a battlewagon would take about ten wounds from their haywire cannons.
Also the skyweavers are faster, more maneuverable since they can still fly, more durable for their point cost, and pretty much better in every way except that they can't carry a few fatass gravis models to make them a much more attractive target.
So, the question I have for Marine players
You might want to save it for a Marine player but sure.
would you like the option to take a stripped down version of the Repulsor for Gravis models? I'd be fine with that option. Stripped off all its weapons its 230pts, take away Power of the Machine Spirit and call it 200pts flat? 65pts more than the standard empty BW, but you also get +1 Toughness and +1 save as well as hover. Plus of course, removing all those weapons increases standard troop capacity. Probably go up to 15 or 16? So you can take a maxed out Gravis squad of 6 and either 3 extra Marines or 1 Extra Gravis model and a standard marine.
Sure, make the repulsor just fatmarine transport and let the RepEx fill out the gunboat niche. Strip down all its guns other than like a storm bolter or two and point it appropriately for its durability and it might have some value. Its weird split identity of being both a gunboat but also a transport yet shittier than both needs to go.
Is there really any need for one though? No one wants to put Eradicators in transports. I don't think anyone really wants to do so with Aggressors. If they're not starting on the board they're being put in reserves to troubleshoot in a later battle round.
I'll cap off with this: your transport IMO should not cost more points than what it's transporting.
And a repulsor at its lowest is more than the five aggressors chilling inside of it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/08 19:49:21
Generally speaking Transports with a side role as a tank are massively over priced for their dual role. I'm convinced GW prices the Stompa idiotically because at some point in the distance future, transports will be OP and the stompa will finally be only slightly over priced.
I'll cap off with this: your transport IMO should not cost more points than what it's transporting.
If its primary role was to transport stuff then yes, it should definitely not cost more points that what it's transporting. If it's a gun boat or a melee threat with some transport capacity it's whole different story.
A bonebreaka is 180 points and can carry 90-116 points of ork boyz. A solid combo that works but the cargo is 50% cheaper than the vehicle.
A tank like the repulsor can't be related to a transport like a rhino, a trukk or even a battlewagon. It's mostly a gun boat, a proper shooting oriented unit, with some transport capacity. Make it 180-200 points but with only a couple of storm bolters as the only weapons it carries, or just a ram that gives some punch in CC with no ranged weapons, and SM players would revolt
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 06:57:56
I'll cap off with this: your transport IMO should not cost more points than what it's transporting.
If its primary role was to transport stuff then yes, it should definitely not cost more points that what it's transporting. If it's a gun boat or a melee threat with some transport capacity it's whole different story.
A bonebreaka is 180 points and can carry 90-116 points of ork boyz. A solid combo that works but the cargo is 50% cheaper than the vehicle.
A tank like the repulsor can't be related to a transport like a rhino, a trukk or even a battlewagon. It's mostly a gun boat, a proper shooting oriented unit, with some transport capacity.
The Repulsor (Non-Ex) was literally a Dedicated Transport. Both are the only thing allowed to transport Gravis that can't Deep Strike.
Make it 180-200 points but with only a couple of storm bolters as the only weapons it carries, or just a ram that gives some punch in CC with no ranged weapons, and SM players would revolt
Well Marine Players have been asking for a Gravis capable Transport that wasn't overpriced for a while, but you're absolutely right, if they make it roughly twice the cost of an Impulsor with even less damage output the players just might be unhappy. Were you the one who priced Repulsors in the first place?
Breton wrote: Were you the one who priced Repulsors in the first place?
I think they're good at 300+ points, in fact I even consider LR to be at least viable and I'll definitely use the crusader with my SW, especially now that it can carry 30 3+ obj sec wounds plus a character. Their problem is units like eradicators that shouldn't exist at all, and the fact that too many units have free or cheap access to deepstrike/outflank which is something that IMHO should also be removed. The majority of factions, even considering competitive lists, can't really 1shot a repulsor in first turn unless they list tailor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 07:32:40
I'll cap off with this: your transport IMO should not cost more points than what it's transporting.
If its primary role was to transport stuff then yes, it should definitely not cost more points that what it's transporting. If it's a gun boat or a melee threat with some transport capacity it's whole different story.
A bonebreaka is 180 points and can carry 90-116 points of ork boyz. A solid combo that works but the cargo is 50% cheaper than the vehicle.
A tank like the repulsor can't be related to a transport like a rhino, a trukk or even a battlewagon. It's mostly a gun boat, a proper shooting oriented unit, with some transport capacity. Make it 180-200 points but with only a couple of storm bolters as the only weapons it carries, or just a ram that gives some punch in CC with no ranged weapons, and SM players would revolt
How would you stat an Imperial Guard transport for moving around those 50point guard squads?
How would you stat an Imperial Guard transport for moving around those 50point guard squads?
45 points is not a lot to pay for a transport...
I'd do what they did with the Chimera. Make the Transport even more valuable when there's something inside it like the lasgun arrays (I'd just do it BETTER than the Lasgun arrays: both so one embarked 20 point dude isn't firing 6 different weapon stations a turn - and so it's better than lasguns). I'd also make them 70 point guard squads.
Tyel wrote: Guard are amongst the weakest factions in the game right now. The idea guardsmen need to be nerfed is crazy.
Other factions doing worse than guard had their basic infantry all see a 2 points per model increase at the start of 9th though.
Though in all honesty I dont this it's guardsmen letting down Guard it's Leman Russes in a world of eradicators are like an I want to loose button. Sadly that also doesn't meen the russ is over costed trash it just is hard countered by the most OP unit in the most played codex right of 9th. Yet the most efficent weapon IG have for gravis is probably demolisher cannons on russes
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 08:58:46
Tyel wrote: Guard are amongst the weakest factions in the game right now. The idea guardsmen need to be nerfed is crazy.
Other factions doing worse than guard had their basic infantry all see a 2 points per model increase at the start of 9th though.
Though in all honesty I dont this it's guardsmen letting down Guard it's Leman Russes in a world of eradicators are like an I want to loose button. Sadly that also doesn't meen the russ is over costed trash it just is hard countered by the most OP unit in the most played codex right of 9th. Yet the most efficent weapon IG have for gravis is probably demolisher cannons on russes
it's not the russes actually, it's vehicles without a invul save and the general lack of GW using the T value propperly or the SV for them aswell, that makes them way to easy pickings... that and a gakky wound table and you get the salad.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Tyel wrote: Guard are amongst the weakest factions in the game right now. The idea guardsmen need to be nerfed is crazy.
They need some of the antiquated rules holding them back removed/changed and then they need to be recosted. If Guard Infantry were costed to what they should be Guard would be even worse off than they are.
Tyel wrote: Guard are amongst the weakest factions in the game right now. The idea guardsmen need to be nerfed is crazy.
They need some of the antiquated rules holding them back removed/changed and then they need to be recosted. If Guard Infantry were costed to what they should be Guard would be even worse off than they are.
what antiquated rules are you thinking about specificly?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Tyel wrote: Guard are amongst the weakest factions in the game right now. The idea guardsmen need to be nerfed is crazy.
They need some of the antiquated rules holding them back removed/changed and then they need to be recosted. If Guard Infantry were costed to what they should be Guard would be even worse off than they are.
what antiquated rules are you thinking about specificly?
A lot of their infantry is limited per FOC slot. More than one Infantry Squad per troop, more than one 3 Team Squad per Heavy. Completely missing Troop slot CCW units - a lasgun+chainsword unit should be an option. No Doctrine etc on SHA's. Objective Secured being based on Model Count not some sort of cross faction stat that would benefit Leman Russ ObSec (points, power level, etc). Paying CP for more Dets. One Order/unit per turn 6" auras while others are getting all within 6" Auras.
Ice_can wrote: So we are back to Agressors are trash but be happy Xeno players you got 12 inch flamers too.
So for only 45 points I can make a crisis suit with 2 flamers with -1AP. Oh joy such balance.
On a unit that can fly/ deep strike naturally and has ap -1 for the whole game? Wow...no real advantages here for the crisis suit. This is the problem. Mobility aint free. Plus it's a know fact crisis suits are not good.
So they're paying for buffs and not good, but agressors are also trash despite having even better stats and coating less points, that's before looking at the points for the 2 powerfists which crisis suits don't have.
Tau don't have doctrines. Their closest thing only affects missiles. Crisis suits with missiles gravis marines BTW. The issue is basically crisis suits costing a little too much and aggressors getting a serious discount on powerlift considering they can't really use them (too slow - not durable enough to footslog to melee).
Breton wrote: Were you the one who priced Repulsors in the first place?
I think they're good at 300+ points, in fact I even consider LR to be at least viable and I'll definitely use the crusader with my SW, especially now that it can carry 30 3+ obj sec wounds plus a character. Their problem is units like eradicators that shouldn't exist at all, and the fact that too many units have free or cheap access to deepstrike/outflank which is something that IMHO should also be removed. The majority of factions, even considering competitive lists, can't really 1shot a repulsor in first turn unless they list tailor.
If you list struggles to kill a repulsor you just have a bad list. Or have just given up on shooting all together. Which with the way people seem to want to make tables in 9th that isn't even a bad idea.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 14:07:58
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
@ Xenomancer: serious question as I lack experience: if T5, W3, 3+ is
not durable enough to footslog to melee
than what is?
I mean: Bullgryn are considered a really good CC unit and they have the same T/W/A,
The Bullgryns advantage is +1" movement, WS3+ instead of 4+ with the gauntlets, sv2+ OR 4++ instead of Aggressors 3+ and D2 instead of Dd3 which is slightly better against W2
Aggressors on the other hand have shockassault which is better than avalanche of muscle as it also triggers when being charged, are not exclude from chapter boni as the Bullgryns, they have +1 S, -2 better AP and CAN ALSO SHOOT. And they cost almost the same...
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Pyroalchi wrote: @ Xenomancer: serious question as I lack experience: if T5, W3, 3+ is
not durable enough to footslog to melee
than what is?
I mean: Bullgryn are considered a really good CC unit and they have the same T/W/A,
The Bullgryns advantage is +1" movement, WS3+ instead of 4+ with the gauntlets, sv2+ OR 4++ instead of Aggressors 3+ and D2 instead of Dd3 which is slightly better against W2
Aggressors on the other hand have shockassault which is better than avalanche of muscle as it also triggers when being charged, are not exclude from chapter boni as the Bullgryns, they have +1 S, -2 better AP and CAN ALSO SHOOT. And they cost almost the same...
yeah, from my experience, aggressors make it into melee quite often considering theyre always on the frontlines due to their short range (compared to the rest of the SM army)
Breton wrote: Were you the one who priced Repulsors in the first place?
I think they're good at 300+ points, in fact I even consider LR to be at least viable and I'll definitely use the crusader with my SW, especially now that it can carry 30 3+ obj sec wounds plus a character. Their problem is units like eradicators that shouldn't exist at all, and the fact that too many units have free or cheap access to deepstrike/outflank which is something that IMHO should also be removed. The majority of factions, even considering competitive lists, can't really 1shot a repulsor in first turn unless they list tailor.
Land Raiders are still bad simply because they can't pass through even one Cultist to deliver a unit LOL
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Breton wrote: Were you the one who priced Repulsors in the first place?
I think they're good at 300+ points, in fact I even consider LR to be at least viable and I'll definitely use the crusader with my SW, especially now that it can carry 30 3+ obj sec wounds plus a character. Their problem is units like eradicators that shouldn't exist at all, and the fact that too many units have free or cheap access to deepstrike/outflank which is something that IMHO should also be removed. The majority of factions, even considering competitive lists, can't really 1shot a repulsor in first turn unless they list tailor.
Land Raiders are still bad simply because they can't pass through even one Cultist to deliver a unit LOL
Just outflank your land raider filled with terminators
Just make sure your terminator delivery is as inefficient as possible
Lets say both units have charged and have therefore the same # of attacks (note that Agressors have one more per model if they were being charged):
3 Bullgryns (129 points) vs. 3 Agressors (135 points ?)
both have 13 attacks
Bullgryns hit 8.66 times, Agressors 6.5 times.
Damage against:
T4/W2/3+: Bullgryns: 2.88 ,Agressors 3.38 models killed
T5/W3/3+: B: 1.44 , A: 2.03 models killed
T7/3+: B:4.33, A: 7.22 damage done
T8/3+: B:2.88, A: 5.41 damage done
I won’t do the math for everything, but basically while Bullgryn hit 4/3 as often as Agressors, they wound worse against anything T4,T7,T8 get worse through saves better than 6+ and need more unsaved wounds (2 vs. 1.77) to kill a W3 model.
So this “shooty unit” is better in CC than the best CC unit in the IG codex, which is also one of the most competitive options IG has in general… And it can also shoot pretty good stil and costs almost the same. And regarding transports: while Bullgryn can take some, they occupy 3 seats…
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 16:33:51
~7510 build and painted
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Pyroalchi wrote: @ Xenomancer: serious question as I lack experience: if T5, W3, 3+ is
not durable enough to footslog to melee
than what is?
I mean: Bullgryn are considered a really good CC unit and they have the same T/W/A,
The Bullgryns advantage is +1" movement, WS3+ instead of 4+ with the gauntlets, sv2+ OR 4++ instead of Aggressors 3+ and D2 instead of Dd3 which is slightly better against W2
Aggressors on the other hand have shockassault which is better than avalanche of muscle as it also triggers when being charged, are not exclude from chapter boni as the Bullgryns, they have +1 S, -2 better AP and CAN ALSO SHOOT. And they cost almost the same...
Bulgrans have defensive buffs to help them get accross the table. There was a time they would be rolling with a -1 to hit and a 1+ armor save and a 3++. That was pretty unstoppable at the time. Bullgrens in front of a castellan knight or a bunch of shooty characters that you can't shoot because of character targeting rules. They were never taken because they slayed hard in melee. Though they do an okay job of that too - plus they can be taken in larger units.
Aggressors move 5 inches. Max 6 per unit. Have no access to an invulnerable save (suppose with the new codex they will from a librarian) and have 18" guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
Pyroalchi wrote: @ Xenomancer: serious question as I lack experience: if T5, W3, 3+ is
not durable enough to footslog to melee
than what is?
I mean: Bullgryn are considered a really good CC unit and they have the same T/W/A,
The Bullgryns advantage is +1" movement, WS3+ instead of 4+ with the gauntlets, sv2+ OR 4++ instead of Aggressors 3+ and D2 instead of Dd3 which is slightly better against W2
Aggressors on the other hand have shockassault which is better than avalanche of muscle as it also triggers when being charged, are not exclude from chapter boni as the Bullgryns, they have +1 S, -2 better AP and CAN ALSO SHOOT. And they cost almost the same...
yeah, from my experience, aggressors make it into melee quite often considering theyre always on the frontlines due to their short range (compared to the rest of the SM army)
My experience is aggressors on the front line are dead the turn after they shoot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 16:44:33
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You say "Anything they shoot can charge them" like that's supposed to matter. Aggressors WANT to be charged-they all have Powerfists and a bunch of attacks!
And yes, they can be killed-but it's considerably harder to kill three T5 3+ W3 models than a lot of other stuff in the game. They're not unkillable, but they are durable.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
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