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So they're paying for buffs and not good, but agressors are also trash despite having even better stats and coating less points, that's before looking at the points for the 2 powerfists which crisis suits don't have.
Tau don't have doctrines. Their closest thing only affects missiles. Crisis suits with missiles gravis marines BTW. The issue is basically crisis suits costing a little too much and aggressors getting a serious discount on powerlift considering they can't really use them (too slow - not durable enough to footslog to melee).
T5 3W 3+ save, easy access to strats to make them even more durable, not sure how you think they aren't "durable" enough. And most importantly and I really emphasize this; THEY HAVE 18' RANGE GUNS if they are too slow to get into CC than they are too slow to get into range to use their damn guns. If you are shooting someone with your bolt gauntlets than you are 18' range. If you move forward you are likely in charge range, unless everyone of your models is exactly 18' away. So if they are in range to shoot they are in range to at least attempt a charge and failing that they will definitely get the charge the next turn. If you start them close to the forward deployment edge they will be in range turn 1 to hose down anything that grabs an objective and will 100% be within charge range to finish them off should they not wipe them out in the shooting phase.
Xenomancers wrote: If you list struggles to kill a repulsor you just have a bad list. Or have just given up on shooting all together. Which with the way people seem to want to make tables in 9th that isn't even a bad idea.
The current Ork tournament winning list is Hordes of boyz backed by Ghaz. They are incapable of killing a Repulsor entirely. The Repulsor is faster with long ranged guns so it can basically elude them indefinitely and only has to worry about the random 1 mob of boyz getting Da Jumped (if they bring a weirdboy) but the repulsor also gets -2 to charge so its at a minimum a 11' charge good luck.
The other tournament list orkz seem to be bringing is Buggies, i personally think they are going to be hard up in the new meta of Eradicators and melta but we will see, regardless, Buggies CAN kill a repulsor but they have to get lucky, probably the premier anti-Repulsor unit would be the Scrap Jet. 2D3 Rokkitz and 1 Wing missile (4+ rokkit) On average 4 shots hitting on 5s and 1 hitting on 4s.
Works out to about 2 hits per turn, 1 wound and .66 wounds going through armor for 3 dmg. That works out to basically 2 dmg a turn. It can then hose it down with 12 Big shoota shots, half hitting on 4s for again about 6 hits, 2 wounds and .66 dmg. 2.66 dmg. per 110pt scrapjet. Of course they might also take a battery of Mek Gunz so 12 shots from Smashas for 7 hits, wounding on 8+ = about 3 wounds, goes through armor for 3D6dmg or 10.5 Still not dead yet, and we are making a lot of assumptions about the Mek gunz and scrapjet being in range and in LOS without -1 to hit or +1 to save.
Other Buggies:
BDSW: Mek Speshul, 9 shots, 4ish hits, 1.5ish wounds for 1 dmg also has a big shoota...but who cares?
KBB: Rivet Kannon: 6 shots, 2.3 hits .8ish wounds for .26 unsaved wounds or .52 dmg a turn
RTSB: Boom Squigs, 3D3 shots = 6, 2.3 hits .8ish wounds .26 unsaved wounds for .52 dmg a turn
SJD: 2 S8 shots hitting on 3. 1.33 hits .67 wounds -3ap so .55 wounds = 1.95 wounds a turn with a 1/6 chance the SJD hurts itself OR inflicts 1 MW on its target. Also 1 rokkit, .38 hits, .19 wounds -2AP for .126 unsaved wounds = .38 dmg a turn. Total 2.33 dmg a turn
Edit @Xenomancer:
@ Anything they shoot at can charge them: really? If they shoot at Bullgryns (from 18") those have to move 6" for a 12"charge... And there are no buffs to charge range for them. Oh and when they charge them each Agressor still gets +1A
Also: yes if you use 2 psychic powers you can make them much more durable but really: do you think its normal that a pure CC elite unit makes LESS damage in CC than a unit with BS3+ and 6+D6 shots?
I grant you that Bullgryns have the better defensive profile but their Offensive profile is much weaker. So even without shooting Agressors are (in my opinion) on par with them as CC unit.
The movement difference is 1"... And I'm sure somewhere in the Marine codex is a was to buff charge distance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 16:59:56
Aggressors move 5 inches. Max 6 per unit. Have no access to an invulnerable save (suppose with the new codex they will from a librarian) and have 18" guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
Ork boyz move 5 inches, have no access to invulnerable save (suppose with the codex they have one from a Big Mek) and have 12-18' guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
It takes 2.32 S4 hits to kill 1 ork boy at 8pts, it takes 27 S4 hits to kill 1 Aggressor at 45pts. So point for point those Aggressors are over 11x more durable than boyz but only cost about 5-6x as much. Shooting wise....well, lets not get into that, its too sad for orkz....you know, the official faction of DAKKA. in CC a choppa boy against a T4 target with 3+ save gets 3 attacks, 2 hits 1 wound for .33 dmg. The Aggressor gets 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds and 2.22 dmg x D3 so likely 4.44 dmg if targeting multi-wound models. 13x more dmg than the boy. The only weakness Aggressors have is against multi-dmg weapons. Against T4 hordes, aggressors and boyz are about equal, with the edge going to aggressors point for point in CC, at range its not even close.
I'm really still shocked how good Agressors are in CC... really if I as IG collector would be asked if I would trade the Bullgryns stats with the Agressors CC stats I... would tend towards it. That S8 -3 AP is really something and I'm not sure if 2+ OR 4++ is really worth more.
It just always slipped by, as the Agressors shooting was that extreme.
Pyroalchi wrote: Edit @Xenomancer:
@ Anything they shoot at can charge them: really? If they shoot at Bullgryns (from 18") those have to move 6" for a 12"charge... And there are no buffs to charge range for them. Oh and when they charge them each Agressor still gets +1A
Also: yes if you use 2 psychic powers you can make them much more durable but really: do you think its normal that a pure CC elite unit makes LESS damage in CC than a unit with BS3+ and 6+D6 shots?
I grant you that Bullgryns have the better defensive profile but their Offensive profile is much weaker. So even without shooting Agressors are (in my opinion) on par with them as CC unit.
The movement difference is 1"... And I'm sure somewhere in the Marine codex is a was to buff charge distance.
But you can have more of them, then a marine player can have aggresors by pure virtue of of a single troop IG option costing less then 5 intercessors.
Marine has to be better at everything, because it costs more, the army has fewer models and , unless it is something like a 8th ed thundercannon, the marine player can't really invest in to units that are only good vs one specific target. And IG or ork player can always fit in something that costs 100-150pts, a marine player won't, or at least not without messing up his support and scoring base.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Pyroalchi wrote: Edit @Xenomancer:
@ Anything they shoot at can charge them: really? If they shoot at Bullgryns (from 18") those have to move 6" for a 12"charge... And there are no buffs to charge range for them. Oh and when they charge them each Agressor still gets +1A
Also: yes if you use 2 psychic powers you can make them much more durable but really: do you think its normal that a pure CC elite unit makes LESS damage in CC than a unit with BS3+ and 6+D6 shots?
I grant you that Bullgryns have the better defensive profile but their Offensive profile is much weaker. So even without shooting Agressors are (in my opinion) on par with them as CC unit.
The movement difference is 1"... And I'm sure somewhere in the Marine codex is a was to buff charge distance.
But you can have more of them, then a marine player can have aggresors by pure virtue of of a single troop IG option costing less then 5 intercessors.
Marine has to be better at everything, because it costs more, the army has fewer models and , unless it is something like a 8th ed thundercannon, the marine player can't really invest in to units that are only good vs one specific target. And IG or ork player can always fit in something that costs 100-150pts, a marine player won't, or at least not without messing up his support and scoring base.
You don't get to use the points cost of other unrelated units when comparing the powerlevel of two units. Agressors are only 2pts more than bullgryns.
Aggressors move 5 inches. Max 6 per unit. Have no access to an invulnerable save (suppose with the new codex they will from a librarian) and have 18" guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
Ork boyz move 5 inches, have no access to invulnerable save (suppose with the codex they have one from a Big Mek) and have 12-18' guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
It takes 2.32 S4 hits to kill 1 ork boy at 8pts, it takes 27 S4 hits to kill 1 Aggressor at 45pts. So point for point those Aggressors are over 11x more durable than boyz but only cost about 5-6x as much. Shooting wise....well, lets not get into that, its too sad for orkz....you know, the official faction of DAKKA. in CC a choppa boy against a T4 target with 3+ save gets 3 attacks, 2 hits 1 wound for .33 dmg. The Aggressor gets 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds and 2.22 dmg x D3 so likely 4.44 dmg if targeting multi-wound models. 13x more dmg than the boy. The only weakness Aggressors have is against multi-dmg weapons. Against T4 hordes, aggressors and boyz are about equal, with the edge going to aggressors point for point in CC, at range its not even close.
The invune save bubble is a new psychic power in the marine codex that isn't even released yet. That is why I put it in quotations.
You are also missing the point. Compared to Bulgryns they can't be buffed to be defensive wall like bullgryns can. So the can't walk up the table shrugging off damage. Agressors DIE. Much like Scorpeth destroyers just die. Aggressors are a much better unit that Bullgryns but that doesn't mean Bullgryns aren't more useful with the right build.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Karol you've been drinking too much of the marine player coolaid.
The concept of unit x or y has to outperform equivalent points becuase my units more expensive rarely results in balanced games, yes their is cases like Knights & Hordes where other factors like table presence play a much higer percentage of the consideration.
But 5 marines at 90-100 points vrs 100 points of other troops actually tend to do well if not win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 17:57:55
Pyroalchi wrote: Edit @Xenomancer:
@ Anything they shoot at can charge them: really? If they shoot at Bullgryns (from 18") those have to move 6" for a 12"charge... And there are no buffs to charge range for them. Oh and when they charge them each Agressor still gets +1A
Also: yes if you use 2 psychic powers you can make them much more durable but really: do you think its normal that a pure CC elite unit makes LESS damage in CC than a unit with BS3+ and 6+D6 shots?
I grant you that Bullgryns have the better defensive profile but their Offensive profile is much weaker. So even without shooting Agressors are (in my opinion) on par with them as CC unit.
The movement difference is 1"... And I'm sure somewhere in the Marine codex is a was to buff charge distance.
But you can have more of them, then a marine player can have aggresors by pure virtue of of a single troop IG option costing less then 5 intercessors.
Marine has to be better at everything, because it costs more, the army has fewer models and , unless it is something like a 8th ed thundercannon, the marine player can't really invest in to units that are only good vs one specific target. And IG or ork player can always fit in something that costs 100-150pts, a marine player won't, or at least not without messing up his support and scoring base.
Point for point those Aggressors are significantly more durable that my ork boyz against anything except against anti-vehicle weapons. Point for point they are better at CC than my Ork boyz are. Point for point (you brought it up so here you go) in the shooting phase against NON horde units they do 9.5 shots for 45pts compared to my ork boyz who put out 10 shots for 40pts. Difference is i get 3 hits you get 6. So point for point those aggressors are twice as effective at shooting against their worst target and even more so against 11+ model units.
So yeah, I can bring a max squad of 30 to your 6, but we cost almost the exact same and you will destroy my boyz in every category.
A lot of people seem to think about some units, as in mostly those of other factions, starting in the perfect position, zero loses and max random rolls. Worse is that GW does it the same way, so they over value in point costs melee options. Making something like a unit of melee nobz on foot cost if they were always starting the game 9" away from the opponent with the ork player going first.
A unit that is just pure aggro has to be either very fast, like something droping turn 1 from a drop pod, or very cheap to be really broken. Otherwise it has to be spamed, and then it means the whole army is build around them.
And we did see salamander aggresor lists win big tournaments. But those were the pre nerf aggresors with the old salamander chapter trait.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Aggressors move 5 inches. Max 6 per unit. Have no access to an invulnerable save (suppose with the new codex they will from a librarian) and have 18" guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
Ork boyz move 5 inches, have no access to invulnerable save (suppose with the codex they have one from a Big Mek) and have 12-18' guns. So. Literally anything they shoot at or move into position to shoot can charge them.
It takes 2.32 S4 hits to kill 1 ork boy at 8pts, it takes 27 S4 hits to kill 1 Aggressor at 45pts. So point for point those Aggressors are over 11x more durable than boyz but only cost about 5-6x as much. Shooting wise....well, lets not get into that, its too sad for orkz....you know, the official faction of DAKKA. in CC a choppa boy against a T4 target with 3+ save gets 3 attacks, 2 hits 1 wound for .33 dmg. The Aggressor gets 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.22 wounds and 2.22 dmg x D3 so likely 4.44 dmg if targeting multi-wound models. 13x more dmg than the boy. The only weakness Aggressors have is against multi-dmg weapons. Against T4 hordes, aggressors and boyz are about equal, with the edge going to aggressors point for point in CC, at range its not even close.
The invune save bubble is a new psychic power in the marine codex that isn't even released yet. That is why I put it in quotations.
You are also missing the point. Compared to Bulgryns they can't be buffed to be defensive wall like bullgryns can. So the can't walk up the table shrugging off damage. Agressors DIE. Much like Scorpeth destroyers just die. Aggressors are a much better unit that Bullgryns but that doesn't mean Bullgryns aren't more useful with the right build.
If your worried about your agressors dieing take a chief apocothory.
T5 3w 3+Sv 6+++, 3 wounds per turn and 1 model at full wounds.
Srategun to make them 2+Sv, or your invulnerable save is also an option.
They are plenty durable and if the marine player wants they have plenty of buffs to turn them into a wall.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 18:04:09
You are also missing the point. Compared to Bulgryns they can't be buffed to be defensive wall like bullgryns can. So the can't walk up the table shrugging off damage. Agressors DIE. Much like Scorpeth destroyers just die. Aggressors are a much better unit that Bullgryns but that doesn't mean Bullgryns aren't more useful with the right build.
Yes Bullgryns are useful, especially with their good defensive profile. But really Agressors being THAT good in CC, and outperforming a clearly pure CC unit while still being a very efficient shooty unit that can kill 50-80% of its points in the shooting phase unassisted (as shown multiple times) is just over the top.
And @ Bullgryns walking up the table shrugging off damage: can they though? With Psychic barrier we can give ONE unit +1sv, but then we can not give this buff to our tanks. And with 6'' movement without any means to increase movement or charge range, they take their good time. If you take them in bigger units than 4, while possible, they don't fit in any non-LOW transport, while 5 Aggressors fit in a Repulsor for example.
Edit: and I'm sure there are as many ways to buff Aggressors defensivly as Bullgryn. We have exactly two: Psychic barrier (+1 sv) and Nightshroud (-1 to hit) which can only be applied to one unit per turn and have no 100% chance to work as they need some really flimsy psykers to cast them
Second Edit: sorry, I was somehow convinced each Psychic power could only be cast once per turn, it was once per Psyker, my bad. Ignore the part with "than we cannot put it on a tank"
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 18:15:41
You are also missing the point. Compared to Bulgryns they can't be buffed to be defensive wall like bullgryns can. So the can't walk up the table shrugging off damage. Agressors DIE. Much like Scorpeth destroyers just die. Aggressors are a much better unit that Bullgryns but that doesn't mean Bullgryns aren't more useful with the right build.
Yes Bullgryns are useful, especially with their good defensive profile. But really Agressors being THAT good in CC, and outperforming a clearly pure CC unit while still being a very efficient shooty unit that can kill 50-80% of its points in the shooting phase unassisted (as shown multiple times) is just over the top.
And @ Bullgryns walking up the table shrugging off damage: can they though? With Psychic barrier we can give ONE unit +1sv, but then we can not give this buff to our tanks. And with 6'' movement without any means to increase movement or charge range, they take their good time. If you take them in bigger units than 4, while possible, they don't fit in any non-LOW transport, while 5 Aggressors fit in a Repulsor for example.
Edit: and I'm sure there are as many ways to buff Aggressors defensivly as Bullgryn. We have exactly two: Psychic barrier (+1 sv) and Nightshroud (-1 to hit) which can only be applied to one unit per turn and have no 100% chance to work as they need some really flimsy psykers to cast them
Second Edit: sorry, I was somehow convinced each Psychic power could only be cast once per turn, it was once per Psyker, my bad. Ignore the part with "than we cannot put it on a tank"
A repulsor is like...350ish points and dies in a single round of shooting. It is unplayable. There is also a stratagem to give +1 to armor that used to be able to stack with bullgryns. After that got nerfed everyone stopped taking them.
You are correct about everything you are saying. I agree with you that Agressors are better than Bullgryns in melee. Agressors also shoot better than Bullgryns. So I'd recommend not taking Bullgryns. Nothing stops you from including agressors in your IG army as well (though they will lose all their special doctrines) You could however bring in some electro shock priests or an imperial knight or anything else you want from an imperial faction and not shut off your Imperial guard traits. It will just cost you CP. Space marines are a mono only force essentially.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 18:27:13
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You are also missing the point. Compared to Bulgryns they can't be buffed to be defensive wall like bullgryns can. So the can't walk up the table shrugging off damage. Agressors DIE. Much like Scorpeth destroyers just die. Aggressors are a much better unit that Bullgryns but that doesn't mean Bullgryns aren't more useful with the right build.
Yes Bullgryns are useful, especially with their good defensive profile. But really Agressors being THAT good in CC, and outperforming a clearly pure CC unit while still being a very efficient shooty unit that can kill 50-80% of its points in the shooting phase unassisted (as shown multiple times) is just over the top.
And @ Bullgryns walking up the table shrugging off damage: can they though? With Psychic barrier we can give ONE unit +1sv, but then we can not give this buff to our tanks. And with 6'' movement without any means to increase movement or charge range, they take their good time. If you take them in bigger units than 4, while possible, they don't fit in any non-LOW transport, while 5 Aggressors fit in a Repulsor for example.
Edit: and I'm sure there are as many ways to buff Aggressors defensivly as Bullgryn. We have exactly two: Psychic barrier (+1 sv) and Nightshroud (-1 to hit) which can only be applied to one unit per turn and have no 100% chance to work as they need some really flimsy psykers to cast them
Second Edit: sorry, I was somehow convinced each Psychic power could only be cast once per turn, it was once per Psyker, my bad. Ignore the part with "than we cannot put it on a tank"
No, you're right. Psychic Focus is once per turn-you cast Psychic Barrier on Bullgryns, it can't go on anything else. Fail to cast it? It's not going on ANYTHING, period.
Xenomancers wrote: A repulsor is like...350ish points and dies in a single round of shooting. It is unplayable.
You are correct about everything you are saying. I agree with you that Agressors are better than Bullgryns in melee. Agressors also shoot better than Bullgryns. So I'd recommend not taking Bullgryns. Nothing stops you from including agressors in your IG army as well (though they will lose all their special doctrines) You could however bring in some electro shock priests or an imperial knight or anything else you want from an imperial faction and not shut off your Imperial guard traits. It will just cost you CP. Space marines are a mono only force essentially.
Oh no, if you soup, you lose your massive amount of otherwise free bonuses that no other Codex even comes close to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 18:26:36
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Guard has some really good bonus. But they suffer greatly from the power creep though.
It wasn't long ago that double shooting aggressors with guilliman rerolling everything was a bottom tier tournament list while IG command tanks combined with knights were staple high performing tournament builds.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Lets say both units have charged and have therefore the same # of attacks (note that Agressors have one more per model if they were being charged):
3 Bullgryns (129 points) vs. 3 Agressors (135 points ?)
both have 13 attacks
Bullgryns hit 8.66 times, Agressors 6.5 times.
Damage against:
T4/W2/3+: Bullgryns: 2.88 ,Agressors 3.38 models killed
T5/W3/3+: B: 1.44 , A: 2.03 models killed
T7/3+: B:4.33, A: 7.22 damage done
T8/3+: B:2.88, A: 5.41 damage done
I won’t do the math for everything, but basically while Bullgryn hit 4/3 as often as Agressors, they wound worse against anything T4,T7,T8 get worse through saves better than 6+ and need more unsaved wounds (2 vs. 1.77) to kill a W3 model.
So this “shooty unit” is better in CC than the best CC unit in the IG codex, which is also one of the most competitive options IG has in general… And it can also shoot pretty good stil and costs almost the same. And regarding transports: while Bullgryn can take some, they occupy 3 seats…
Now do the math of Eradicators shooting Aggressors and 4++/1+ Bullgryns.
"Aggressors aren't broken! They're more vulnerable to a definitely broken Space Marine unit!"
The only difference would be saves-same Toughness, same Wound count.
Against a 2+ Bullgryn, they take 1/6th less damage (6+ save versus 7+).
Against a 1+ Bullgryn, they take 1/3rd less damage (5+ versus 7+).
Against a 0+ or 4++ Bullgryn, they take half the damage (4+ versus 7+).
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
There is also a stratagem to give +1 to armor that used to be able to stack with bullgryns. After that got nerfed everyone stopped taking them.
Again: no... OK, I don't play tournament, but I doubt that "everybody" stopped taking them. They are by far or best (and only real) CC unit.
Just talking about competitive showings in tournaments. For IG melee you are correct. They are your best option. That or hordes of catachans with straken.
Unless you go outside of your codex and into custodians. 3x captains on jetbikes, ect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 19:12:38
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
"Aggressors aren't broken! They're more vulnerable to a definitely broken Space Marine unit!"
The only difference would be saves-same Toughness, same Wound count.
Against a 2+ Bullgryn, they take 1/6th less damage (6+ save versus 7+).
Against a 1+ Bullgryn, they take 1/3rd less damage (5+ versus 7+).
Against a 0+ or 4++ Bullgryn, they take half the damage (4+ versus 7+).
Sisters, IG tanks that are about to pack on melta, power fists, thunder hammers, doomsday cannons, smasha guns...need more?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 19:20:19
So they're paying for buffs and not good, but agressors are also trash despite having even better stats and coating less points, that's before looking at the points for the 2 powerfists which crisis suits don't have.
Tau don't have doctrines. Their closest thing only affects missiles. Crisis suits with missiles gravis marines BTW. The issue is basically crisis suits costing a little too much and aggressors getting a serious discount on powerlift considering they can't really use them (too slow - not durable enough to footslog to melee).
T5 3W 3+ save, easy access to strats to make them even more durable, not sure how you think they aren't "durable" enough. And most importantly and I really emphasize this; THEY HAVE 18' RANGE GUNS if they are too slow to get into CC than they are too slow to get into range to use their damn guns. If you are shooting someone with your bolt gauntlets than you are 18' range. If you move forward you are likely in charge range, unless everyone of your models is exactly 18' away. So if they are in range to shoot they are in range to at least attempt a charge and failing that they will definitely get the charge the next turn. If you start them close to the forward deployment edge they will be in range turn 1 to hose down anything that grabs an objective and will 100% be within charge range to finish them off should they not wipe them out in the shooting phase.
Xenomancers wrote: If you list struggles to kill a repulsor you just have a bad list. Or have just given up on shooting all together. Which with the way people seem to want to make tables in 9th that isn't even a bad idea.
The current Ork tournament winning list is Hordes of boyz backed by Ghaz. They are incapable of killing a Repulsor entirely. The Repulsor is faster with long ranged guns so it can basically elude them indefinitely and only has to worry about the random 1 mob of boyz getting Da Jumped (if they bring a weirdboy) but the repulsor also gets -2 to charge so its at a minimum a 11' charge good luck.
The other tournament list orkz seem to be bringing is Buggies, i personally think they are going to be hard up in the new meta of Eradicators and melta but we will see, regardless, Buggies CAN kill a repulsor but they have to get lucky, probably the premier anti-Repulsor unit would be the Scrap Jet. 2D3 Rokkitz and 1 Wing missile (4+ rokkit) On average 4 shots hitting on 5s and 1 hitting on 4s.
Works out to about 2 hits per turn, 1 wound and .66 wounds going through armor for 3 dmg. That works out to basically 2 dmg a turn. It can then hose it down with 12 Big shoota shots, half hitting on 4s for again about 6 hits, 2 wounds and .66 dmg. 2.66 dmg. per 110pt scrapjet. Of course they might also take a battery of Mek Gunz so 12 shots from Smashas for 7 hits, wounding on 8+ = about 3 wounds, goes through armor for 3D6dmg or 10.5 Still not dead yet, and we are making a lot of assumptions about the Mek gunz and scrapjet being in range and in LOS without -1 to hit or +1 to save.
Other Buggies:
BDSW: Mek Speshul, 9 shots, 4ish hits, 1.5ish wounds for 1 dmg also has a big shoota...but who cares?
KBB: Rivet Kannon: 6 shots, 2.3 hits .8ish wounds for .26 unsaved wounds or .52 dmg a turn
RTSB: Boom Squigs, 3D3 shots = 6, 2.3 hits .8ish wounds .26 unsaved wounds for .52 dmg a turn
SJD: 2 S8 shots hitting on 3. 1.33 hits .67 wounds -3ap so .55 wounds = 1.95 wounds a turn with a 1/6 chance the SJD hurts itself OR inflicts 1 MW on its target. Also 1 rokkit, .38 hits, .19 wounds -2AP for .126 unsaved wounds = .38 dmg a turn. Total 2.33 dmg a turn
First of all I literally state here that the only way you can fail to kill a repulsor is to ignore shooting altogether. Those ork lists do. Because the game has evolved into fighting in a junkyard where you can't draw LOS anywhere. Can't blame them.
An ork list with 9+ smasha/custommega blasta will annihilate a repulsor as fast as any army with lascannons. It is trivially easy to destroy and cost nearly 1/5 of your army. An utterly garbage unit far worse than any unit being discussed in this thread.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
"Aggressors aren't broken! They're more vulnerable to a definitely broken Space Marine unit!"
The only difference would be saves-same Toughness, same Wound count.
Against a 2+ Bullgryn, they take 1/6th less damage (6+ save versus 7+).
Against a 1+ Bullgryn, they take 1/3rd less damage (5+ versus 7+).
Against a 0+ or 4++ Bullgryn, they take half the damage (4+ versus 7+).
Sisters, IG tanks that are about to pack on melta, power fists, thunder hammers, doomsday cannons, smasha guns...need more?
Sisters die a lot easier to Aggressors than Bullgryns-weight of no AP fire at S4 or AP-3/better weapons are the way to kill Sisters, if Valorous Heart. You only need AP-2 if they're not or out of range of their Imagifier... But guess what Bullgryns DON'T have?
IG Tanks can take one multi-melta, correct? Or can they take sponson ones too?
Per multi-melta, at BS 4+, they can expect to kill one about 40% of the time or two 5% of the time. Increase that to 55% and 11% respectively, if in Melta Range, but that puts them in easy charge range of the powerfist-equipped Aggressors.
Power Fists are only AP-3, meaning they get a 6+.
Thunder Hammers are going to AP-2, meaning they get a 5+.
Doomsday Cannons are good, true.
Smasha Guns are also good, but bleed secondary points like crazy.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
"Aggressors aren't broken! They're more vulnerable to a definitely broken Space Marine unit!"
The only difference would be saves-same Toughness, same Wound count.
Against a 2+ Bullgryn, they take 1/6th less damage (6+ save versus 7+).
Against a 1+ Bullgryn, they take 1/3rd less damage (5+ versus 7+).
Against a 0+ or 4++ Bullgryn, they take half the damage (4+ versus 7+).
Sisters, IG tanks that are about to pack on melta, power fists, thunder hammers, doomsday cannons, smasha guns...need more?
My necron force will quite literally murderize any space marine force.
Oh cute...you have lots of str 4 shots? Most my army is t5 or more.
Oh you have lots of 3+ save? The lowest AP I field in more than single numbers is -2 (and theres lots of that...oh and it's str 5)
have you seen a doomsday cannon before?
How about a deathray?
BYE BYE GRAVIS
"Aggressors aren't broken! They're more vulnerable to a definitely broken Space Marine unit!"
The only difference would be saves-same Toughness, same Wound count.
Against a 2+ Bullgryn, they take 1/6th less damage (6+ save versus 7+).
Against a 1+ Bullgryn, they take 1/3rd less damage (5+ versus 7+).
Against a 0+ or 4++ Bullgryn, they take half the damage (4+ versus 7+).
Sisters, IG tanks that are about to pack on melta, power fists, thunder hammers, doomsday cannons, smasha guns...need more?
Sisters die a lot easier to Aggressors than Bullgryns-weight of no AP fire at S4 or AP-3/better weapons are the way to kill Sisters, if Valorous Heart. You only need AP-2 if they're not or out of range of their Imagifier... But guess what Bullgryns DON'T have?
IG Tanks can take one multi-melta, correct? Or can they take sponson ones too?
Per multi-melta, at BS 4+, they can expect to kill one about 40% of the time or two 5% of the time. Increase that to 55% and 11% respectively, if in Melta Range, but that puts them in easy charge range of the powerfist-equipped Aggressors.
Power Fists are only AP-3, meaning they get a 6+.
Thunder Hammers are going to AP-2, meaning they get a 5+.
Doomsday Cannons are good, true.
Smasha Guns are also good, but bleed secondary points like crazy.
IG demolishers can take 3 MM I believe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 19:30:41
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Only DKOK tanks can take a hull Multimelta, but all can take one in each sponson.
Aside from that IG can take MM on Servitors (questionable) and Devildogs.
Edit: but it's again the same game as usual. Someone compares an SM unit (in this case even an "offlabel use" of a shooty unit) to a good unit of his own codex and immediatly it is stated "that unit isn't taken anyway because it is bad" (ooookay...?) and stated that the much better damage output does not count because they are weaker defensivly, especially if the compared unit packs 2 psychic powers.
Also stating that they are much more likely (1'' faster...) to get into CC, while they don't have any means to buff charge distance (while Marines have). And the statement "yeah, then just take some Armigers/Custodes" is... again... oookay...?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 19:41:14
Bullgryns and Aggressors are a bad comparison. Bullgryns arent in the list to dish out damage but to prevent the opponent to get to the ranged threats and hold parts of the table.
You could(when IG was good under 8th rules) easily win a game due to bullgryns without them doing a single wound.
Guard have cheaper chaff units and cheaper glasscannons(melta squads) and also more and better vehicle options than SM. One of the things the army lack is good CC units. That their unit that can bridge that obvious weakness in their design costs more is quite understandable. Its good for armies to have weaknesses and still give you the option to compensate for it at a premium price.
Guard as a whole probably needs a buff and some marine units still need more balancing. Eradicators mostly. They are just too good for their price without having a real weakness. But you still shouldnt compare vastly different units in very different armies to each other straight up. You cant really get much of a conclusion from such an excercise.
Units that try to do the same thing in lists/armies that are quite similar can be compared and get you more out of it. But exact points isnt very important since different armies still pay a bit different for similar things. Pure SM melee dread lists vs pure melee tyranid monsters could probably be compared in a good way. Or main tanks in pure mech lists. Aggressive combined melee/shooting unit in an elite army vs a control melee unit in a shooty horde or mech army is a rather pointless discussion.
Klickor wrote: Bullgryns and Aggressors are a bad comparison. Bullgryns arent in the list to dish out damage but to prevent the opponent to get to the ranged threats and hold parts of the table.
You could(when IG was good under 8th rules) easily win a game due to bullgryns without them doing a single wound.
Guard have cheaper chaff units and cheaper glasscannons(melta squads) and also more and better vehicle options than SM. One of the things the army lack is good CC units. That their unit that can bridge that obvious weakness in their design costs more is quite understandable. Its good for armies to have weaknesses and still give you the option to compensate for it at a premium price.
Guard as a whole probably needs a buff and some marine units still need more balancing. Eradicators mostly. They are just too good for their price without having a real weakness. But you still shouldnt compare vastly different units in very different armies to each other straight up. You cant really get much of a conclusion from such an excercise.
Units that try to do the same thing in lists/armies that are quite similar can be compared and get you more out of it. But exact points isnt very important since different armies still pay a bit different for similar things. Pure SM melee dread lists vs pure melee tyranid monsters could probably be compared in a good way. Or main tanks in pure mech lists. Aggressive combined melee/shooting unit in an elite army vs a control melee unit in a shooty horde or mech army is a rather pointless discussion.
What unit would you compare agressors too then as the argument at the moment boils down to "Agressors are overcosted why did GW over nerf them. Xeno players but thwy are better than X,Y,Z unit.
Ah but unit x,y,z is just bad you can't compair them to that. So they are better than one of codex in questions better units but they're not good enough for marine's.
It kinda sums up the problem the codex's arnt even on the same continent power level wise.
Klickor wrote: Bullgryns and Aggressors are a bad comparison. Bullgryns arent in the list to dish out damage but to prevent the opponent to get to the ranged threats and hold parts of the table.
You could(when IG was good under 8th rules) easily win a game due to bullgryns without them doing a single wound.
Guard have cheaper chaff units and cheaper glasscannons(melta squads) and also more and better vehicle options than SM. One of the things the army lack is good CC units. That their unit that can bridge that obvious weakness in their design costs more is quite understandable. Its good for armies to have weaknesses and still give you the option to compensate for it at a premium price.
Guard as a whole probably needs a buff and some marine units still need more balancing. Eradicators mostly. They are just too good for their price without having a real weakness. But you still shouldnt compare vastly different units in very different armies to each other straight up. You cant really get much of a conclusion from such an excercise.
Units that try to do the same thing in lists/armies that are quite similar can be compared and get you more out of it. But exact points isnt very important since different armies still pay a bit different for similar things. Pure SM melee dread lists vs pure melee tyranid monsters could probably be compared in a good way. Or main tanks in pure mech lists. Aggressive combined melee/shooting unit in an elite army vs a control melee unit in a shooty horde or mech army is a rather pointless discussion.
What unit would you compare agressors too then as the argument at the moment boils down to "Agressors are overcosted why did GW over nerf them. Xeno players but thwy are better than X,Y,Z unit.
Ah but unit x,y,z is just bad you can't compair them to that. So they are better than one of codex in questions better units but they're not good enough for marine's.
It kinda sums up the problem the codex's arnt even on the same continent power level wise.
Compare them to shining spears. Then realize they are vastly inferior to shining spears.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bullgryns and Aggressors are a bad comparison. Bullgryns arent in the list to dish out damage but to prevent the opponent to get to the ranged threats and hold parts of the table
Ok, but Aggressors can do that almost as well as Bullgryns. That is my point
Its T5,W3,2+ OR 4++ vs. T5,W3,3+ for almost the same cost. If you argue that Bullgryns are taken for their defensive profile, than the argument can be made that even if Agressors could not shoot and would not significantly outperform Bullgryns in damage output, they can perform in the Bullgryns staying power role almost as good.
Sure you can argue that Bullgryns can be buffed by two defensive Psyker powers (which have to be cast... by T3 Psykers... and not denied... and can only be cast once per turn), but I'm sure somewhere in the enormous SM codex are ways to buff Aggressors defensivly.
I compare them because I want to highlight that even if they could not shoot at all instead of 6+D6Blast S4 shots, they are still superior to a CC unit of another codex and can fill that units defensive roll almost as good.
And regarding the argument that it's OK and important that armies have weaknesses and pay for some roles more than other armies: Again as a serious and honest question: is there really the feeling that IG is currently better in shooting output than Marines with their Bolter Discipline? Sure we have our Tanks, but none off them have InvSvs and in an age of 2 shots MM they will likely die like flies.
Xenomancers wrote: Compare them to shining spears. Then realize they are vastly inferior to shining spears.
Mobility SS: 16" move, auto-advance 6" Agg: 5" move Winner: Shining Spears by a long shot
Durability SS: 2W at T4 3+, 4++ against ranged attacks. Exarch has +1 Wound and can get a 3++ against ranged weapons Agg: 3W at T5 3+, no invuln. Winner: Depends on your exact matchup, but generally Aggressors
Shooting SS: 1 shot at 6" S6 AP-4 D2, 4 at 12" S4 AP0 (-3 on 6s to-wound) D1 Agg: 6+d6 at 18" S4 AP0 (-1 on turn 2 and optionally 3) D1 Winner: Again, depends on your exact match-up, but generally Aggressors due to superior range and rate of fire
Melee SS: 2 WS3+ attacks (3 on Exarch) at S3 AP-4 D2, S6 on the charge only. Agg: 3 attacks WS4+ effectively (4 on Sergeant) at S8 AP-3 Dd3, plus one attack on the first turn of combat no matter what Winner: Aggressors by a country mile. Especially once Fists are changed to D2 flat, instead of d3, they get more attacks at a higher Strength and similar damage. Sure, one less AP, but AP-3 is enough.
The Aggressors are 10 PPM more, but they're more durable, more shooty, more punchy... Their only disadvantage is that they're slower, but with the midfield gaining more value in 9th, that's less relevant. The only time they're less durable would be against mid-strength (6 or 7 especially), very high AP, very high damage weapons. So... Heat Lances?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 20:35:40
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
good luck.
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