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2020/09/04 01:02:55
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.
agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.
Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of melta
See im stopping you right there because nobody has dared yet to say which Melta units actually functioned beforehand.
Doesn't matter. Is the way to address Melta to create a new super-melta unit? Or is the solution to address all Melta units accross the board? Multimeltas were addressed, so thats something, but that doesnt help Fire Dragons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 01:14:19
Vaktathi wrote: If we're wanting to compare Fire Dragons to Eradicators, I don't think that's unfair, just dismissing Fire Dragons as inherently bad so as to not be comparable to the Primaris unit I don't think is accurate in this case, they're certainly no Railgun Hammerhead or Russ Vanquisher. They're ostensibly designed to fill the same niche and are armed with weapons of similar design and operation as Eradicators, the Eradicators just do it better in every way. The Fire dragon has remained identical in terms of stats, cost, and weapons since 6E, and before that it was nearly identical except was a bit cheaper and had a 4+ save instead of a 3+ going back to 1998. In fact, the Fire Dragon is arguably more capable than it ever was before, getting to reroll 1's against vehicles and MC's. Their delivery mechanisms (primarily Wave Serpents, sometimes Falcons), are about as capable as they've ever been and remain roughly the same cost as they have been in previous editions. A unit of 5 Fire Dragons will generally kill most common vehicles in a single round of fire unsupported if allowed to attack from close enough range, same as they have in most editions. If that's a unit that's so underwhelming as to be considered to be incomparable to Eradicators, methinks it speaks more to the bloat of the system and powercreep of such newer units, than it does to the inherent awfulness of an older unit like Fire Dragons.
No the problem is the core rules of the game changed and if anything fire dragons are significantly weaker than they were in older editions. Their fusion guns use to be able to one shot vehicles making a unit of them extremely scary to vehicles. You could also use their melta bombs in melee when now you can't.
Fire dragons were a dumb unit back in older editions like 5th or 6th and made a mockery of any vehicle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 01:18:13
2020/09/04 01:22:38
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Fire Dragons were in a good place in 5th. Well, they felt right at least. They'd wreck pretty much any vehicle they got near, but tended to be overkill, and thus often inefficient. And they weren't too hard to kill. So they could accomplish a lot and were a scary unit, but could also be dealt with if you knew what you were doing.
Their performance on the tabletop matched what they were supposed to be like.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2020/09/04 01:25:15
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Fire Dragons were in a good place in 5th. Well, they felt right at least. They'd wreck pretty much any vehicle they got near, but tended to be overkill, and thus often inefficient. And they weren't too hard to kill. So they could accomplish a lot and were a scary unit, but could also be dealt with if you knew what you were doing.
Their performance on the tabletop matched what they were supposed to be like.
Yep. Hell if fire dragons could charge tanks and use their melta bombs like they used to in 9th, they would be out damaging eradicators.
Hell the melta bombs may be problem now. They will never use them and without them they would be cheaper.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 01:32:54
2020/09/04 01:40:55
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
I mean, overall, I felt like Meltas of most sorts were in a good place in 5th. The exception being Sternguard and Chaos terminator suicide combi deepstrikes, which were a bit silly (but wouldn't be a problem under new DS rules.)
The problem is that we're not going to get that old dynamic back with the changes to vehicle armor.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2020/09/04 01:42:17
Subject: Re:Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Vaktathi wrote: If we're wanting to compare Fire Dragons to Eradicators, I don't think that's unfair, just dismissing Fire Dragons as inherently bad so as to not be comparable to the Primaris unit I don't think is accurate in this case, they're certainly no Railgun Hammerhead or Russ Vanquisher. They're ostensibly designed to fill the same niche and are armed with weapons of similar design and operation as Eradicators, the Eradicators just do it better in every way. The Fire dragon has remained identical in terms of stats, cost, and weapons since 6E, and before that it was nearly identical except was a bit cheaper and had a 4+ save instead of a 3+ going back to 1998. In fact, the Fire Dragon is arguably more capable than it ever was before, getting to reroll 1's against vehicles and MC's. Their delivery mechanisms (primarily Wave Serpents, sometimes Falcons), are about as capable as they've ever been and remain roughly the same cost as they have been in previous editions. A unit of 5 Fire Dragons will generally kill most common vehicles in a single round of fire unsupported if allowed to attack from close enough range, same as they have in most editions. If that's a unit that's so underwhelming as to be considered to be incomparable to Eradicators, methinks it speaks more to the bloat of the system and powercreep of such newer units, than it does to the inherent awfulness of an older unit like Fire Dragons.
No the problem is the core rules of the game changed and if anything fire dragons are significantly weaker than they were in older editions. Their fusion guns use to be able to one shot vehicles making a unit of them extremely scary to vehicles. You could also use their melta bombs in melee when now you can't.
Fire dragons were a dumb unit back in older editions like 5th or 6th and made a mockery of any vehicle.
Yes, melta is less efficient in general now, through the previous editions, those Meltas also waxed and waned in value, all that AP1 and damage table bonuses in 7E looked real cool until you realized that by the time you ever really got to take advantage of it, the target was already dead through HP loss either way, and other platforms just carried straight up D weapons to begin with While Fire Dragons won't pop a Land Raider like they used to, against most vehicles a unit of Fire Dragons is still going to end them typically, but more importantly the units we're comparing them (Eradicators) to also have Meltas, that total package however is just substantially better than the Fire Dragons for almost the same cost. That's not saying that Fire Dragons (more accurately, the fundamental statline of the basic Meltagun in general) couldn't use some help, but the comparison to Eradicators is a useful illustration of bloat at its finest.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2020/09/04 01:56:44
Subject: Re:Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Vaktathi wrote: If we're wanting to compare Fire Dragons to Eradicators, I don't think that's unfair, just dismissing Fire Dragons as inherently bad so as to not be comparable to the Primaris unit I don't think is accurate in this case, they're certainly no Railgun Hammerhead or Russ Vanquisher. They're ostensibly designed to fill the same niche and are armed with weapons of similar design and operation as Eradicators, the Eradicators just do it better in every way. The Fire dragon has remained identical in terms of stats, cost, and weapons since 6E, and before that it was nearly identical except was a bit cheaper and had a 4+ save instead of a 3+ going back to 1998. In fact, the Fire Dragon is arguably more capable than it ever was before, getting to reroll 1's against vehicles and MC's. Their delivery mechanisms (primarily Wave Serpents, sometimes Falcons), are about as capable as they've ever been and remain roughly the same cost as they have been in previous editions. A unit of 5 Fire Dragons will generally kill most common vehicles in a single round of fire unsupported if allowed to attack from close enough range, same as they have in most editions. If that's a unit that's so underwhelming as to be considered to be incomparable to Eradicators, methinks it speaks more to the bloat of the system and powercreep of such newer units, than it does to the inherent awfulness of an older unit like Fire Dragons.
No the problem is the core rules of the game changed and if anything fire dragons are significantly weaker than they were in older editions. Their fusion guns use to be able to one shot vehicles making a unit of them extremely scary to vehicles. You could also use their melta bombs in melee when now you can't.
Fire dragons were a dumb unit back in older editions like 5th or 6th and made a mockery of any vehicle.
Yes, melta is less efficient in general now, through the previous editions, those Meltas also waxed and waned in value, all that AP1 and damage table bonuses in 7E looked real cool until you realized that by the time you ever really got to take advantage of it, the target was already dead through HP loss either way, and other platforms just carried straight up D weapons to begin with While Fire Dragons won't pop a Land Raider like they used to, against most vehicles a unit of Fire Dragons is still going to end them typically, but more importantly the units we're comparing them (Eradicators) to also have Meltas, that total package however is just substantially better than the Fire Dragons for almost the same cost. That's not saying that Fire Dragons (more accurately, the fundamental statline of the basic Meltagun in general) couldn't use some help, but the comparison to Eradicators is a useful illustration of bloat at its finest.
Kinda. As I pointed out in a later post if you could melee tanks with melta bombs like you used to be able to Fire Dragons would out damage eradicators. It isn't bloat per say but just the core rules have changed.
2020/09/04 02:17:35
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Racerguy180 wrote: so you admit that you dont have all the data and are drawing a conclusion from an incomplete data set?
Are you admitting to a huge power disparity between the two units as is?
If that's what the stats are AS OF RIGHT NOW, then yes. But to then go say that they're broken(or whatever) when we havent seen what the actual codex says is kinda shortsighted. Cuz what is OP today, is tomorrow's hot garbage. All with the turn of a page in a CODEX.
I guess what I'm trying to say is chill the feth out and maybe, just maybe if they're too powerful....dont take them(gasp) or dont play with someone who uses them. Cuz funnily enuff, you, yes YOU have the power to to say no. To quote Salt n Pepa "no means no!" GW isnt holding a splinter rifle to your head forcing you to play something you dont/aren't interested in playing. Wow imagine that, you had the power all along Dorothy.
Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.
agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.
Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of melta
See im stopping you right there because nobody has dared yet to say which Melta units actually functioned beforehand.
Doesn't matter. Is the way to address Melta to create a new super-melta unit? Or is the solution to address all Melta units accross the board? Multimeltas were addressed, so thats something, but that doesnt help Fire Dragons.
2020/09/04 02:59:39
Subject: Re:Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
the problem is right now Meltaguns as they stand just aren't that great. whereas a single melta gun in the past used to be a solid eneugh threat that it was reasonably common to see marine squads deploying with a Multa gun as a anti tank deterrant. now a single melta gun is a mild inconveniance to most vehicles.
thing is, WE KNOW GW reckongizes this and is BUFFING Melta. We however lack sufficant information about melta guns etc to fully say how it'll all work. we know Multimelta are going to be 2 shots, with +2 added to damage at closer ranges. That is what we KNOW. we also know that eradicators have a 24 inc assault 1 melta rifle that allows you to roll twice and drop the lowest at half range.
what we don't have, as far as I know, is what the rules for a Meltagun will be. will it be just "roll 2d6 discard lowest, at half range" or will it be something differant? we also don't know, what, if any thing, GW does to fire dragons (for all we know GW fully intends to give Fire dragons the same special rule eradicators right now have) yes eradicators are powerful, no doubt there, but it's pretty clear to me that GW is rethinking Meltaguns in 9th edition.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/09/04 03:27:27
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
I don't think I've ever seen the "just wait" crowd say it's time to assess. There's always a new codex, CA, Campaign book or edition that will have everything fall into place.
My personal favourite was the 7th book making Eldar even more egregious. The whole lead up was "don't worry y'all, they know it's a problem..."
This new Marine book will be most interesting to follow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 05:17:39
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2020/09/04 04:17:51
Subject: Re:Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is right now Meltaguns as they stand just aren't that great. whereas a single melta gun in the past used to be a solid eneugh threat that it was reasonably common to see marine squads deploying with a Multa gun as a anti tank deterrant. now a single melta gun is a mild inconveniance to most vehicles.
thing is, WE KNOW GW reckongizes this and is BUFFING Melta. We however lack sufficant information about melta guns etc to fully say how it'll all work. we know Multimelta are going to be 2 shots, with +2 added to damage at closer ranges. That is what we KNOW. we also know that eradicators have a 24 inc assault 1 melta rifle that allows you to roll twice and drop the lowest at half range.
what we don't have, as far as I know, is what the rules for a Meltagun will be. will it be just "roll 2d6 discard lowest, at half range" or will it be something differant? we also don't know, what, if any thing, GW does to fire dragons (for all we know GW fully intends to give Fire dragons the same special rule eradicators right now have) yes eradicators are powerful, no doubt there, but it's pretty clear to me that GW is rethinking Meltaguns in 9th edition.
Single melta gun of the past? When? The only time I remember is when 5E came about and it was Melta simply because it a very vehicle heavy edition and you needed to try to break them rather then glance them constantly with plasma.
2020/09/04 04:26:09
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
argonak wrote: If someone doesn’t want to play my blood ravens as counts as ultramarines, I’ll count myself lucky I didn’t end up in a game with someone like that unknowingly.
I do think it’s rather iffy to use detachments that have different chapter traits but are painted the same though. That seems too confusing.
I get a little of not wanting to play against Blood Ravens playing as UM. Blood Ravens have their own rules and they show up a lot less often. The Pink and Purple Submarine Marines don't have their own rules, so I don't mind those counts-as.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I mean, overall, I felt like Meltas of most sorts were in a good place in 5th. The exception being Sternguard and Chaos terminator suicide combi deepstrikes, which were a bit silly (but wouldn't be a problem under new DS rules.)
The problem is that we're not going to get that old dynamic back with the changes to vehicle armor.
I would guess Melta was the flavor of the month during 5th. I'd say Plasma was the Flavor of the Month in 8th. When did Grav come out? 6th? I'm not sure if GW knows they do it, if they do it intentionally or subconciously, but just about every edition makes a different one of the Elements into a favored choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/04 04:34:01
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/09/04 04:48:48
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
argonak wrote: If someone doesn’t want to play my blood ravens as counts as ultramarines, I’ll count myself lucky I didn’t end up in a game with someone like that unknowingly.
I do think it’s rather iffy to use detachments that have different chapter traits but are painted the same though. That seems too confusing.
I get a little of not wanting to play against Blood Ravens playing as UM. Blood Ravens have their own rules and they show up a lot less often. The Pink and Purple Submarine Marines don't have their own rules, so I don't mind those counts-as.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I mean, overall, I felt like Meltas of most sorts were in a good place in 5th. The exception being Sternguard and Chaos terminator suicide combi deepstrikes, which were a bit silly (but wouldn't be a problem under new DS rules.)
The problem is that we're not going to get that old dynamic back with the changes to vehicle armor.
I would guess Melta was the flavor of the month during 5th. I'd say Plasma was the Flavor of the Month in 8th. When did Grav come out? 6th? I'm not sure if GW knows they do it, if they do it intentionally or subconciously, but just about every edition makes a different one of the Elements into a favored choice.
Melta's were slightly favored as the go-to special weapon, but others got plenty of use. It wasn't anywhere near as skewed as plasma in 8th. Plasma had plenty of uses in 5th, and flamers would show up too. It wasn't uncommon for Loyalists to run their mandatory Tacs as flamer+heavy bolter due to the points discounts. And of course, CSM tended to run 2x melta +powerfist or 2x plasma for ranged squads.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2020/09/04 05:42:38
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Melta's were slightly favored as the go-to special weapon, but others got plenty of use. It wasn't anywhere near as skewed as plasma in 8th. Plasma had plenty of uses in 5th, and flamers would show up too. It wasn't uncommon for Loyalists to run their mandatory Tacs as flamer+heavy bolter due to the points discounts. And of course, CSM tended to run 2x melta +powerfist or 2x plasma for ranged squads.
Want to bet Melta is the FOTM for 9th?
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2020/09/04 06:24:12
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Hence why all the complaints about comparing them to Fire Dragons are silly: it's a bad unit so get over it. Nerfing Eliminators to the ground won't fix your Fire Dragons, as they'll still be gak at their jobs.
agreed. it's like I've been saying since the whole eradicator fiasco started, comparing a unit to a bad unit no one takes is silly.
Both units are reportedly supposed to perform the same function of melta
See im stopping you right there because nobody has dared yet to say which Melta units actually functioned beforehand.
Doesn't matter. Is the way to address Melta to create a new super-melta unit? Or is the solution to address all Melta units accross the board? Multimeltas were addressed, so thats something, but that doesnt help Fire Dragons.
They have to start somewhere, if all specialist melta units are getting a decent buff, something has to be first. It's a new edition hence it's no surprise it's marines who get the first pass.
If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
2020/09/04 08:22:08
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
Well, speaking for Chaos, I'm not aware of a time when melta chosen were ever viable. Hard to miss something that you've never had. Fire dragons are mentioned because they've actually been useful in the past, and they're one of the most iconic melta specialist units.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2020/09/04 08:32:25
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Dudeface wrote: If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
Don't assume that T'au, etc aren't pissed about eradicators, thanks.
But when we point out that fusion crisis suits are incredibly poor we get told 'STFU, you have quad fusion commanders and Triptides'.
P.S. we don't want to have to continue to rely on the same 3 odd units (especially considering how incredibly boring the Triptide playstyle is)...
2020/09/04 09:10:42
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
Well, speaking for Chaos, I'm not aware of a time when melta chosen were ever viable. Hard to miss something that you've never had. Fire dragons are mentioned because they've actually been useful in the past, and they're one of the most iconic melta specialist units.
Well, there is the comparison to a single obliterator, which under new rules is 15 pts cheaper and worse .....
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/09/04 09:33:26
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
Well, speaking for Chaos, I'm not aware of a time when melta chosen were ever viable. Hard to miss something that you've never had. Fire dragons are mentioned because they've actually been useful in the past, and they're one of the most iconic melta specialist units.
But it's not OK to complain only because a historically good unit has direct competition. I get melta chosen were never super popular (maybe back in 3.5?), but people in here aren't really complaining about "melta units" they're just complaining about fire dragons mostly.
sanguine40k wrote:
Dudeface wrote: If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
Don't assume that T'au, etc aren't pissed about eradicators, thanks.
But when we point out that fusion crisis suits are incredibly poor we get told 'STFU, you have quad fusion commanders and Triptides'.
P.S. we don't want to have to continue to rely on the same 3 odd units (especially considering how incredibly boring the Triptide playstyle is)...
I agree entirely, but I'm thankful there aren't threads full of tau players whining about how fusion suits are now outclassed. It doesn't make it right but hopefully when the time comes round fusion will get a little bump as well.
2020/09/04 10:36:11
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Later 2021: "wait for CA 2021, your dataset is incomplete"
Later 2022: "wait for (box set), your dataset is incomplete."
Later 2023: "wait for codex V2, your dataset is incomplete."
Later 2024: "wait for 10th edition, your dataset is incomplete..."
Later 999.M41: "wait for the Blackstone Fortress to smash Cadis, your dataset is incomplete)
2020/09/04 11:38:17
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Later 2021: "wait for CA 2021, your dataset is incomplete"
Later 2022: "wait for (box set), your dataset is incomplete."
Later 2023: "wait for codex V2, your dataset is incomplete."
Later 2024: "wait for 10th edition, your dataset is incomplete..."
Later 999.M41: "wait for the Blackstone Fortress to smash Cadis, your dataset is incomplete)
Likewise the "AARRGGGHHH unit x is too good, let's pretend everyone but me has max of them and whine endlessly even though I know for a fact it might be adjusted next month" is tiresome.
2020/09/04 12:13:51
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Dudeface wrote: Likewise the "AARRGGGHHH unit x is too good, let's pretend everyone but me has max of them and whine endlessly even though I know for a fact it might be adjusted next month" is tiresome.
Bolding is mine.
Not sure how you can put those two comments in the same sentence given comment no.2 directly contradicts comment no.1...
But also, in the competitive environment, it seems like a large proportion of the space marine armies are running max eradicators.
2020/09/04 12:34:29
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Dudeface wrote: Likewise the "AARRGGGHHH unit x is too good, let's pretend everyone but me has max of them and whine endlessly even though I know for a fact it might be adjusted next month" is tiresome.
Bolding is mine.
Not sure how you can put those two comments in the same sentence given comment no.2 directly contradicts comment no.1...
But also, in the competitive environment, it seems like a large proportion of the space marine armies are running max eradicators.
Not really, I know for a fact that there is a window/opportunity for it to change. I know for a fact new games consoles come out this winter, which might have record preorders. Other examples etc.
Lots of them maybe are but how many people whining on here about them are facing 9 eradicators regularly?
2020/09/04 13:53:48
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Eradicators are too good, even if it is 3, and they cause feelsbadman moments when a 120 pt unit is so utterly destructive you have to pivot your deployment and battleplan around it, because if you don't they will just delete one of your assets no questions asked.
2020/09/04 15:17:15
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
If Eradicators didn't exist, I dare say all these complaints about fire dragons wouldn't exist. But likewise, gotta ask why tempestus melta drop squads aren't complaining, nor fusion tau suit units, nor chaos chosen melta units etc. Just firedragon owners.
Well, speaking for Chaos, I'm not aware of a time when melta chosen were ever viable. Hard to miss something that you've never had. Fire dragons are mentioned because they've actually been useful in the past, and they're one of the most iconic melta specialist units.
7th once the Legion supplement was released.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/09/04 15:22:38
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Eradicators are too good, even if it is 3, and they cause feelsbadman moments when a 120 pt unit is so utterly destructive you have to pivot your deployment and battleplan around it, because if you don't they will just delete one of your assets no questions asked.
What are they worth as someone asked in the other thread? Thats the real question, also don't assume they'll always be 27" master artisans salamanders when weighing up the cost.
2020/09/04 15:42:16
Subject: Let's discuss how OP assault intercerssors are
Believe it or not, I'm finding Intercessors of any kind... underpowered for their cost...
I literally just swapped my Chimeras for Tauroxes and stuck an Autocannon in each squad... When a 10 point squad upgrade can blast 38 points of units a turn that's a great investment, hell even if it only hits 1 of those attacks, it still stands a great chance of killing 19 points - almost double its cost!
The difference happens when the opponent takes 3W Primaris models to backup the Intercessors. Then the autocannons aren't so flash, but then again they were picked to slaughter the inevitable Intercessors to begin with...
I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore.
While Fire Dragons won't pop a Land Raider like they used to, against most vehicles a unit of Fire Dragons is still going to end them typically, but more importantly the units we're comparing them (Eradicators) to also have Meltas, that total package however is just substantially better than the Fire Dragons for almost the same cost. That's not saying that Fire Dragons (more accurately, the fundamental statline of the basic Meltagun in general) couldn't use some help, but the comparison to Eradicators is a useful illustration of bloat at its finest.
