Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think the overwhelming thing with eldar is almost every other army range is a complete plastic range with a few holes (ignoring special characters). Tyanids need biovores/pyrovores, and a couple other things, orks can use a few characters and small special purpose squads, but basically the 'signature units' of these armies are all available in plastic. A book overhaul and a single weekend's releases could (though really shouldn't) handle most army lines.

That simply isn't the case with eldar. And it hasn't been the case for a long time. Actual decades, in fact. The last big DE update still feels unfinished, and they never got around to the craftworld update beyond wraith-constructs and jetbikes (but not shining spears)

Eldar can and should have a 'big rollout.' They can easily do 12 to 20 kits for eldar if so inclined.

Models aside, there's this huge narrative gap that GW introduced but failed to anything with, ancient enemies resurging and so on.

There's also the rules and points issues, the baseline eldar stuff got ground into the dirt with 9th. That needs to be straightened out, even if it means a new direction.

Voss wrote:
I think the overwhelming thing with eldar is almost every other army range is a complete plastic range with a few holes (ignoring special characters). Tyanids need biovores/pyrovores, and a couple other things, orks can use a few characters and small special purpose squads, but basically the 'signature units' of these armies are all available in plastic. A book overhaul and a single weekend's releases could (though really shouldn't) handle most army lines.

That simply isn't the case with eldar. And it hasn't been the case for a long time. Actual decades, in fact. The last big DE update still feels unfinished, and they never got around to the craftworld update beyond wraith-constructs and jetbikes (but not shining spears)

Eldar can and should have a 'big rollout.' They can easily do 12 to 20 kits for eldar if so inclined.

Models aside, there's this huge narrative gap that GW introduced but failed to anything with, ancient enemies resurging and so on.

There's also the rules and points issues, the baseline eldar stuff got ground into the dirt with 9th. That needs to be straightened out, even if it means a new direction.

100% agreed.

And Eldar are WAAAY overdue for a range increase on Shuriken Catapults.

Tyel wrote:

Its a similar cry with DE. "gib HQ options pls" - why? Special characters might be nice, but I really cannot see how the faction changes at all if you give say an Archon a skyboard or jetbike and voila, he's move 14-18 instead of 8". He still does the same old thing and has the same old problems. I feel DE really need more units, especially if they are going to live under this 3 factions in one army annoyance (or really 4 factions, but the 4th gets no special rules because clearly mad overpowered).

Okay, I have a few counterpoints to this:

1) "Your HQs suck so you don't deserve any more" seems rather poor reasoning, if you'll forgive my saying so.

2) Whilst additional HQs and/or options for Jetbikes, Skyboards etc. probably wouldn't drastically improve the overall power level of the army, they might at least make it less dreary to play. I can accept DE not being the most powerful faction. What I really want is for them to be fun. I want to enjoy playing them. I want to enjoy making all matter of characters for them, as opposed to being stuck with the same 3 sods with bugger-all flavour and bugger-all wargear.

3) However, with regard to rules, I feel obliged to mention that asking for new HQs and/or new wargear for existing HQs does not preclude one from also asking for better rules for HQs. I know because it's something I've been saying for bloody ages. Hence, the HQs don't have to remain useless garbage with crap wargear but could instead be turned into genuinely good units (along with any additional ones that are added in).

I mean, I won't object to DE getting new, non-HQ units. It's just that I consider them to be far down on the list of priorities compared to getting an expanded selection of HQs and their wargear.

Tyel wrote:
I mean its perhaps *bad* that there are Eldar kits who won't even get ID'ed to drink and drive - and I know a lot of people hate finecast - but tbh the range largely holds up.
I feel aspect warriors have been cried about before people got broadband - but its hard to sit here and think plastic Dark Reapers or Swooping Hawks are going to completely change how I view Eldar. In the former the helmets are a bit lame, and the latter is a bit "lacking in bling" by modern standards, but that's about it.

Ehhhhh... I realise this is your opinion and I can't exactly say you're definitively wrong - but I will say there are a lot of people who disagree with you, and I'm one of them.
Some of the oldest models hark from the days of "almost-2d" metal casting, where a lot of models have a flat pose because that meant being able to make them in one piece. Even the more recent ones have fixed poses that honestly don't vary that much from one model to the next - even though they're not exactly the same pose, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference at table level.
They also don't hold up too well with the overall scale creep over the years - I realise they're meant to be smaller, but they were already a bit too diminutive before Primaris showed up (which I realise is a problem entirely of GW's own making, not necessarily a flaw with the models' original design, but it's still an issue).

Contrast that to the new Banshees, who look dynamic and while still "small", have a lot more tabletop presence by way of their poses, much like the more recent plastic Harlequins do too. Now imagine that kind of design ethos given to what I will now unfairly claim is objectively the coolest Aspect of all time - Warp Spiders. Go on, just imagine it. 9th ed Warp Spider models, in all their plastic multiple-head-choice, 3-weapon-variants glory. ...THAT is the kind of thought that has me excited for what Eldar might have coming, and why I won't give up on the idea of a range update just yet.

 Eldarsif wrote:


I am very happy with the Necron release, but I am a bit perplexed by the idea that a lot of what appears to SM players think that Xenos is some sort of a mega-faction like Space Marines or even Imperium.
.

Yeah, only the factions I don’t like should be lumped together is some sort of conglomerate mass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.

AoS getting an insane amount of absolutely beautiful models probably helped that trend as well. If there were AoS games in my area, I would probably own an army by now.

Got way too burned by WHFB/AOS changeover to pick up AOS or any other “new” GW game. Others who could still use their old models to get into AOS and buffer the startup costs might feel differently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
At this point I am more inclined to believe Aeldari - at least the Craftworlds - will be squatted sooner rather than later. Personally I wouldn't mind as much of my collection is already old enough to drink and the aging models do not look that great on the tabletop. Could as well just ask them to move out and get a job, those lazy bums.

I find it very hard to believe they'll be squatted. For one - they've been part of the game in both rules and lore for as long as it's existed. To squat them now (as opposed to actual Squats just kinda... "disappearing" in 2nd ed, when the nature of the game was still in very high flux)... it'd cause too big of an uproar, I reckon.

I agree, I don’t think CWE is getting squatted, I think they’re getting merged with Dark Eldar through Ynarri after a couple/few more experiments.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*

So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.

Yeah, that is a lot of salt.

I am very happy with the Necron release, but I am a bit perplexed by the idea that a lot of what appears to SM players think that Xenos is some sort of a mega-faction like Space Marines or even Imperium.

I would love nothing more than if GW would allow all of the Xenos races to ally and fight against the encroachment of the Imperium, but as it is now there is very little to no overlap between Xenos factions. A necron release is not going to do me any good if I want to play Craftworlds or Tyranids.
.

proably because you keep saying Xenos. and don't say "Eldar".

Consider this situation, if I made a post saying Imperium armies didn't get eneugh new models, and needed new models. you'd proably and justly point out that Imperium of Man gets plenty. but if I then replied with "well that doesn't count because Imperial Guard hasn't gotten something in ages" (their last kit IIRC was the Wyvren back in 2014) you'd justly wonder why I didn't just say "Imperial Guard"

TLDR.. say what you mean

At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.

As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.

And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".

 Jidmah wrote:
At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.

As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.

And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".

You've run into the situation, then, where enjoyment of Eldar players runs up against enjoyment of Astartes players.

Eldar players want to feel like their Aspect Warriors are deadly and elite. Astartes players want them to be chaff they mow through. Guess who GW's gonna side with?

 Jidmah wrote:
At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.

As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.

And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".

In terms of needing a big redesign for how the army works irrespective of models, eldar need both, dark eldar need to work out how they're supposed to function as a whole, gsc need something to work around all the deepstrike detail options and daemons need a total rules rework in terms of detachments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.

As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.

And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".

You've run into the situation, then, where enjoyment of Eldar players runs up against enjoyment of Astartes players.

Eldar players want to feel like their Aspect Warriors are deadly and elite. Astartes players want them to be chaff they mow through. Guess who GW's gonna side with?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.

Dudeface wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.

I disagree, I think most marine players enjoy the power fantasy of treating other factions' "elite" units like chaff.

 Jidmah wrote:
At this point, I don't think DE can be fixed with some small additions or a pair of HQ. They need a revamp of the size necrons are about to get to make a coherent army again.

As for aspect warriors, I think plastic aspects are doomed to fail if they don't provide them with better rules at the same time. They've lost their "best in the galaxy" feel with all the power that has creeped into the game everywhere. Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again. As long as they feel like inferior marines, there might as well just keep the finecast models around indefinitely.

And yes, I echo that if you mean to say "eldar", don't say "xenos".

I agree Aspect warriors need a little something to give them some oomph. And I do think there is some design space for them. IMHO aspect warriors should be fast, lethal, capable of rapid re deployment (they should have outflank strats, and webway assault strats etc that enables them to drop aspect warriors where they need to be) but at the same time they should be fragile. An aspect warriors vs Primaris Marines match should be two highly lethal forces going at it, where the eldar match superior positioning against Marines durability. I think a good start would be giving each aspect a inherant ability that is potent and can act as a force multipler.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.

I disagree, I think most marine players enjoy the power fantasy of treating other factions' "elite" units like chaff.

far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.

BrianDavion wrote:
far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.

I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).

Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.

I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).

Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.

... why? Space Marine players aren't obsessed with what other armies get. maybe it's because existing so long and often beside chaos marines, sisters of battle, guard and every other unit that consists of "squads of 5-10 men, with 1 sergant with a CCW and a gun, and 1-2 heavy or special weapons" yet all managed to be unique, we don't pee our pants at the thought that someone might have a unit similer to ours.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.

I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).

Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.

OK: as a heretic astartes play I want banshees to be efficient marine killers scorpions as horde clearers, hawks as a pita harasser, spiders to be able to clear small units off objectives and fire dragons to be able to melt monsters and tanks.

I don't want them to be a horde, I don't want them to be super fragile in all cases either.

In terms of design niches:
Scorpions = incursors I guess
Fire dragons = eradicators
Banshees = no real comparison, blade guard are closest
Warp spiders = ????
Swooping hawks = inceptors? Maybe?
Dark reapers = heavy intercessors at a push?
Dire avengers = intercessors

So they're hardly all stolen.

as an Astartes player, my favorite enemy is eldar.

Aspects are some of the most fun to play against, give an actual fight and the players seem to have a good time doing it(my eldar dont use them but if they got new sculpts, maybe I would).

I would really like it if aspects were the hyper-specialists they used to be.

so no, Marine players WANT to have opponents on an equal footing.

I would rather them be good than walking over them. the only chaff I want to see are blue & smell like fish!

Dudeface wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
far from it Hecaton. most marine players where just sick of OUR units feeling like Chaff.

I honestly don't believe it when you say that. Especially considering that Primaris have cannibalized all of the design space that was there for Aspect Warriors (units armed identically with specialized weapons).

Primaris literally took the Aspect Warriors' niche. If Astartes players were honest they'd be saying something about that.

OK: as a heretic astartes play I want banshees to be efficient marine killers scorpions as horde clearers, hawks as a pita harasser, spiders to be able to clear small units off objectives and fire dragons to be able to melt monsters and tanks.

I don't want them to be a horde, I don't want them to be super fragile in all cases either.

In terms of design niches:
Scorpions = incursors I guess
Fire dragons = eradicators
Banshees = no real comparison, blade guard are closest
Warp spiders = ????
Swooping hawks = inceptors? Maybe?
Dark reapers = heavy intercessors at a push?
Dire avengers = intercessors

So they're hardly all stolen.

Banshees are proably closest to Primaris Reivers I belive.

Dudeface wrote:


I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.

I don't want anyone to have the title. I want them to all compete for it, and nobody gets to hold it for long.

Taken literally, none of this sounds like fun:

Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again

Add the words "potential to" and things are looking pretty good. Especially if you add "point for point" on top of that. ~100 points of banshees plowing through ~200 points of intercessors doesn't feel any better than banshees being chaff either. Banshees have something like a 13-29 average 21" ish charge range. Against those Intercessors they're going to do ~ 5 wounds 1 save. 2 dead, 25 strikes back, 12 (and a half) hit, 8 wound, 4 save next round 6 banshee make13 attacks, 8 hit, 5.5 wound, 1 save 2 more intercessors down. 6 intercessors 13 attacks back, 6.5 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. Your turn 4 banshee make 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wound, part of one saves, other dead Intercessor, 5 left. Even if the 5 Intercessors kill the last four Banshee, they did pretty good for half the cost. 5 intercessors make 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 3 and some change wound, 1.5+ save, still 2 and some change left. Outside of how bad GW mangled close combat in 8th edition, I'm not seeing a problem here. Half the value of the intercessors is killing more than their own value IN intercessors. Maybe the pistol shooting swings things the other way, I dunno, plus the Marines are going to fall back and Dakka if they can but Banshees don't feel that bad to me. 200 points vs 200 points gets even better.

Warp spiders are more like inceptors, swooping hawks feel closest to outriders, but marines don't really need hit and run units if whatever you hit doesn't get back up.

Hilariously, you could continue this exercise across most primaris units:
Invictor = War Walker
Impulsor = Wave Sperent
Repulsor = Falcon
Executioner = Fire Prism
Firestrike Turrets = Support Weapons
Eliminators = Rangers

Primaris are literally eldar+1

BrianDavion wrote:


Banshees are proably closest to Primaris Reivers I belive.

Vanguard Vets. Huge charge range, power swords.

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for eldar aspect warriors to be chaff. In fact most marine players seem to want them to get their titles back.

I don't want anyone to have the title. I want them to all compete for it, and nobody gets to hold it for long.

Taken literally, none of this sounds like fun:

Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again

Add the words "potential to" and things are looking pretty good. Especially if you add "point for point" on top of that. ~100 points of banshees plowing through ~200 points of intercessors doesn't feel any better than banshees being chaff either. Banshees have something like a 13-29 average 21" ish charge range. Against those Intercessors they're going to do ~ 5 wounds 1 save. 2 dead, 25 strikes back, 12 (and a half) hit, 8 wound, 4 save next round 6 banshee make13 attacks, 8 hit, 5.5 wound, 1 save 2 more intercessors down. 6 intercessors 13 attacks back, 6.5 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. Your turn 4 banshee make 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wound, part of one saves, other dead Intercessor, 5 left. Even if the 5 Intercessors kill the last four Banshee, they did pretty good for half the cost. 5 intercessors make 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 3 and some change wound, 1.5+ save, still 2 and some change left. Outside of how bad GW mangled close combat in 8th edition, I'm not seeing a problem here. Half the value of the intercessors is killing more than their own value IN intercessors. Maybe the pistol shooting swings things the other way, I dunno, plus the Marines are going to fall back and Dakka if they can but Banshees don't feel that bad to me. 200 points vs 200 points gets even better.

I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.

The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.

Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.

 Jidmah wrote:
Warp spiders are more like inceptors, swooping hawks feel closest to outriders, but marines don't really need hit and run units if whatever you hit doesn't get back up.

Hilariously, you could continue this exercise across most primaris units:
Invictor = War Walker
Impulsor = Wave Sperent
Repulsor = Falcon
Executioner = Fire Prism
Firestrike Turrets = Support Weapons
Eliminators = Rangers

Primaris are literally eldar+1

I suspect you could do this with most units from most armies. They're all filling some sort of generic archetype. Sniper, Grunt, Tank, APC,

so no, Marine players WANT to have opponents on an equal footing.

Wishful thinking as discussed all over the board here.
Xenos players can hope that their new codices (if any) will be a reaction to the new SM codex and the supplements released this year.

Unfortunately I feel Eldar are kind of screwed unless they cross the rubicon and unfortunately the more units with 2 wounds the weaker and weaker damage 1 guns become.

You could for instance give Banshees the magic Bladeguard swords and at least 3 attacks. That's probably worth about 30 points. But if they remain T3 4+ save 1W, so... 8-9 points, they are just becoming more fragile and will die if they can ever be shot.

I guess Harlequins but they have invuls.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


Banshees are proably closest to Primaris Reivers I belive.

Vanguard Vets. Huge charge range, power swords.

Nah they're saying the primaris line invalidated eldar specifically but there isn't a direct equivalent for banshees really in primaris.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Interestingly enough there has been an increasing wave of 40k players to AoS in circles I am in; online and offline. I can't complain as I think AoS is a fantastic system and having more players in it is good and healthy.

AoS getting an insane amount of absolutely beautiful models probably helped that trend as well. If there were AoS games in my area, I would probably own an army by now.

Also more varied releases. No single faction dominating releases and getting more and more rules poured on them. You have more opponents you tend to face(not me though. For　some reason i seem to face 1 army every time. 1 player out of 16? Sure enough i face them in 3 game tournament. 3 teams out of 8? I face 2 out of 3 games )

Dudeface wrote:


I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.

You mean like Marines too?

The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.

Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.

Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.

I'm not sure what you mean?

Breton wrote:

Banshees need to plow through marines like butter, striking scorpions need to be able to appear right behind enemies and swooping hawks need to be uncatchable hit&run units again

Add the words "potential to" and things are looking pretty good. Especially if you add "point for point" on top of that. ~100 points of banshees plowing through ~200 points of intercessors doesn't feel any better than banshees being chaff either. Banshees have something like a 13-29 average 21" ish charge range. Against those Intercessors they're going to do ~ 5 wounds 1 save. 2 dead, 25 strikes back, 12 (and a half) hit, 8 wound, 4 save next round 6 banshee make13 attacks, 8 hit, 5.5 wound, 1 save 2 more intercessors down. 6 intercessors 13 attacks back, 6.5 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. Your turn 4 banshee make 9 attacks, 6 hit, 2 wound, part of one saves, other dead Intercessor, 5 left. Even if the 5 Intercessors kill the last four Banshee, they did pretty good for half the cost. 5 intercessors make 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, 3 and some change wound, 1.5+ save, still 2 and some change left. Outside of how bad GW mangled close combat in 8th edition, I'm not seeing a problem here. Half the value of the intercessors is killing more than their own value IN intercessors. Maybe the pistol shooting swings things the other way, I dunno, plus the Marines are going to fall back and Dakka if they can but Banshees don't feel that bad to me. 200 points vs 200 points gets even better.

I didn't lose a word about efficiency. It's obvious that such units should neither be OP nor trash and costed appropriately to their abilities.

From a fluff perspective, I expect that a single banshee should kill an intercessor with no problem, which means dealing an average of two damage to a T4/3+ stat line per banshee.
Six banshees clobbering a single marine to death is what orks would do, but does not feel appropriate for a super-agile super-specialized warrior that has been honing their skills for an insane amount of time.

 Ordana wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
I feel nauseous looking at this release schedule. There has to be a breaking point, right? The bubble has to burst. Is it when there are 200 marine units? 300? 350?

Holy god in heaven my fething harlequin codex has 8 units.

Like, even if xenos gets a codex, I expect so little. I'm guessing there will be no new units. Maybe 1. Not only do you typically get nothing if you're not marines. You often LOSE units. Every guard regiment that's not cadian or catachan gets discontinued?... What!?....

People always say "making new models is expensive! Just be happy with what you have!" but GW gaks out 60 new marine models every 3 days. Like, they're very very VERY clearly not hurting for money. They can redesign entire armies with the snap of their fingers. Cranking out one or two new models is like lifting a finger to them. They're giving marines dozens of new units nobody ever asked for and the range never needed.

Ugh... I sort of hate every marine player and at the same time feel really bad for them. How gakky would I feel if the game was literally nothing but catering to me in every way imaginable and giving me every busted unit and rule and obscene amounts of coddling and attention.

Don't mind me. Just usual salt.

*Looks at Indomitus and Command box Necron releases*
*Glances at upcoming Necron releases*
*Rereads post*

So many releases for a Xenos army must be an aberration. We haven't had a meaningful Xenos release like that since Genestealer Cults back in 2019.

Yeah, that is a lot of salt.

Necrons are getting a makeover.
And Marines still get more new units at the same time.

Why shouldn't a Xenos player feel like he is getting gak on?

Because you can be happy for both groups and excited about what comes next, without being a d-bag? In what way does Marines and Necrons getting new models and books at the same time cheapen either side?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Very polite of you but again it doesn't stop Eldar having a big release. But if they do/don't it doesn't impact your army.

Didn't realise GW have unlimited resources and overhaul multiple factions a year. The odds on Eldar getting a big revamp are very dramatically reduced due to the big necron release waves.

For now. Yes. How long did it take for AoS to get where it is today?

Get it now?

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


I don't disagree but I don't think it should be 10 banshees vs 5 intercessors or anything daft either. Eldar are meant to handle their opponents through better tech, training and reflexes.

You mean like Marines too?

The issue is how do you get a banshee up to 20 ppm with a t3 1w profile. They would benefit from s+1 d2/3 swords.

Eldar would likely and rightly squeal at paying 20 points for a 1W model, even one that can charge halfway across the board without getting shot. A vanguard Vet with a Jump pack, bolt pistol and power sword is not quite double the Banshee. 10 banshee can kick the crap out of 10 Vanguard vets. For another month or so. They probably should go to 2/3 Wounds, they probably should get their charge - or advance + charge - range reduced. If I were playing Eldar, I'd prefer the Black Templar no retreat from combat thing over not being shot by overwatch. If they get point for point combat equals to Marines though, they need to lose some of their special rule potency - some of which is probably overkill - to bring them back in line, point for point.

Regards the title though I meant title of specialist unit x rather than what they are now.

I'm not sure what you mean?

I feel we're wanting the same thing but wording it at cross purposes. Banshees as an example need to be better at killing marines now with wounds going up, but they shouldn't do it via outnumbering them. They should be per head as if not more deadly than a marine in their chosen form of combat.

The issue is how to reconcile that with a body that dies to a stiff breeze. I'm not sure there is a clear-cut answer, maybe they need to invest further down the glass cannon route.

Eldar can and should have a 'big rollout.' They can easily do 12 to 20 kits for eldar if so inclined.

I hope Eldar get Primarisized. Not bigger mind you. Just new units that are more effective and expensive versions of what they have now. Making everything they currently use look bad. While only being half an army for the first two years, then getting more releases that finally make them competitive again. Then getting more and more redundant releases. The whole time gaking all over their fluff. Big stupid looking tracked tanks. All those imperial grav units had to come from somewhere. This whole time Farseer (insert name of older than Eldrad farseer who comes from left field here) has been breeding Eldar like clones and preparing the new wave of Eldar tanks, paid for by selling grav plates to the Imperium. On the long thought lost Craftworld of insert craptastic but easy to trademark name here.

In all seriousness. Eldar should not get 2w on all their infantry. Eldar are not tough. Eldar are fast and have high tech. Make them fast and deadly but squishy. Yes kinda like Harlies, but different.

You could for instance give Banshees the magic Bladeguard swords

You mean 2damage? Possibly. If you give everything 2d and 2w it sorta makes the point moot. That said, Banshees are one of the units I'd look at for the possibility if I was making those choices.