Codex Release Schedule

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**Breton**

10 Banshee with +1A for charging and +1A for two weapons kill not quite 4 Intercessors 7.8 damage. The six intercessors attacking back without Shock Assault do 2.2 damage back.

**Jidmah**

Exactly, that's six banshees to kill a primaris marine on average :confused:

I think the problem is just that you assume that a captain should be more deadly in combat than a banshee. The opposite should be the case, which is very much the whole problem of banshees.

**Ice_can**

Jidmah wrote:
I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.

Might want to make the reroll be keyed to infantry keyword then as they wound vehicals at .305 vrs .333%
But it's certainly better than anything GW has tried in the last few years.

**Gadzilla666**

Ice_can wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.

Might want to make the reroll be keyed to infantry keyword then as they wound vehicals at .305 vrs .333%
But it's certainly better than anything GW has tried in the last few years.

Preferred Enemy: Infantry.

There you go.

**the_scotsman**

Breton wrote:
Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Current Points differentials are closer to 2 to 1.

According to the math in your last post, you need six banshees to kill a marine before it strikes back. I didn't check it, but I do hope you do believe in your own math.

According to the math in the post 10 kill 2 on the first round. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.9 after saves. The marines kill just over 4 in return then start losing badly. A primaris captain with a power sword doesn't kill a primaris marine a turn. One of the problems you're assigning to Shining Spears is a problem with close combat in and of itself. GW ripped the guts out of Close Combat in 8th. No +1A for Charging, no +1A for two CCW's (or pistol and CCW). They're figuring out they screwed up but they aren't fixing it yet. A few test balloons so far, but nothing game wide. They gave basic melee a +1A - choppas, talons, chainswords, etc. - but the pistol/power sword etc folks are still screwed. Not being able to chase and destroy falling back units hurts too. Unless it's a huge mob, most of the single turn combats are gone. The strong weapons don't have enough attacks, the ones that get extra attacks aren't strong enough until quantity has a quality all it's own.

Are we talking 2 damage per banshee per player turn? Or per battle round?

One banshee charging a primaris marine should kill that marine on average before it strikes back. And be costed accordingly.

Not until they fix close combat itself first. If a hundred point Captain doesn't necessarily do that, Banshees who do could be in the 70-80 point range. I don't know maybe they like it this way, maybe they don't want single turn fights. Maybe that's the new normal and they probably should have told us.

I'm pretty confused about what math you're talking about currently. Are we talking current howling banshees into new tactical marines? Current howling banshees into current intercessors?

Current banshees vs new tacs: Well do 8 of the new tacs and give the sergeant a new power sword to make the stats as equal as possible, and have 10 banshees, no strat upgrade on the exarch. Assume the banshees get the charge, but have to advance to do so meaning no pistols. That's as realistic a game scenario as I can come up with.

Banshees on the charge: 3.87W, 2 dead tacs.

Tacs response, 2.66 dead banshees.

Following turn, assuming the tacs don't fall back and just have something else shoot the banshees, tacs kill 2.48 banshees between pistols and melee attacks. Then the remaining 5 banshees deal 1.93W, round up to 1 more dead tac.

Next turn, pistols allow the banshees to put an extra wound on the tacs, so they kill 1.5. tacs kill 2 banshees.

Turn after that, only banshee exarch is left. Exarch finishes off the wounded tac.

Turn after that, exarch deals 1 more wound, tacs kill exarch.

Equal points of new marine tacticals vs howling banshees is a long fight, which ends with all banshees dead and 3 tacs alive, one wounded.

**Breton**

Jidmah wrote:
Exactly, that's six banshees to kill a primaris marine on average :confused:

10/2 =5?

I think the problem is just that you assume that a captain should be more deadly in combat than a banshee. The opposite should be the case, which is very much the whole problem of banshees.

Why yes, I kind of believe one of the 10 or so best Space Marine combatants in a chapter should be able to take an elite infantry?

**Jidmah**

Breton wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Exactly, that's six banshees to kill a primaris marine on average :confused:

10/2 =5?

If 10 banshees deal 3.9 damage, you need 6 to kill a model with two wounds.

Why yes, I kind of believe one of the 10 or so best Space Marine combatants in a chapter should be able to take an elite infantry?

"Muhreens should be the bestest at everything" is not a valid argument. Especially not when the talent in question killing other marines.
In addition, if you have paid attention, it would still take quite a few banshees to kill that captain with the rules I suggested.

**Not Online!!!**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
I kind of want them to wound vehicles on sixes with those toothpicks. That's why I suggested the re-roll so they would effectively have 4+ to wound vs marines and orks, but are unlikely to scratch the paint of an ork buggy.

Might want to make the reroll be keyed to infantry keyword then as they wound vehicals at .305 vrs .333%
But it's certainly better than anything GW has tried in the last few years.

Preferred Enemy: Infantry.

There you go.

carefull now, USR's are heresy as are Firing arcs and Armor values.

**Breton**

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm pretty confused about what math you're talking about currently. Are we talking current howling banshees into new tactical marines? Current howling banshees into current intercessors?

10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere.

Equal points of new marine tacticals vs howling banshees is a long fight

They're almost all long fights now. I also later did Old combat rules with the same 10 Banshee +1A and Pistol/CCW +1A (Charge) vs 10 Intercessors (without Shock Assault). That may have been what confused you? Not sure.

The problem isn't limited to Banshees, nor should the fix be there. The 8th Ed changes to Fight were pretty bad. They knew it before 9th(Shock Assault, Hateful Assault) , not fixing it in 9th suggests they wanted to tone down Fight. I hope not this much. Especially if they're going to make a decent fight phase worth 25-33% of primary VPs. Original 8th Ed Assault Marines lost to Intercessors. The loss of Broken -> Run Down -> Destroyed just made things worse.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:

"Muhreens should be the bestest at everything" is not a valid argument.

Its also not the argument I made, but does that really matter to you?

**Jidmah**

There have been multiple good arguments in this thread about why more attacks wouldn't help banshees.

**the_scotsman**

10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere is...not anywhere close to a fight. I'm not sure how you could possibly get to even banshees killing 4 marines.

Are we considering some kind of theoretical universe where banshees get both the +1S power sword and +1A or something?

Because I don't think even the former is a guarantee. They've already said xenos weaponry is waiting until the codex to get changed, dont' get me wrong I HOPE they go in and give at the very least the weapons that are 100% identical in all but name (Fusion, Power Swords, Power Klaws, etc) the same rules, but I do not think it is in any way a given.

I think the default, assumed state should be that banshees will exist in current form at current point cost until at earliest january 2021.

**Breton**

Jidmah wrote:
There have been multiple good arguments in this thread about why more attacks wouldn't help banshees.

Also not the argument I made. The only specific suggestion I've made for banshees so far was to up them to 2W in repsponse (with a non-specific offset to slightly lower their large charge range) to someone else's idea of buffing them to the 20PPM range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere is...not anywhere close to a fight. I'm not sure how you could possibly get to even banshees killing 4 marines.

10 Banshees 21 attacks, (67%)14 hit, (33%)4.62 wound, (16%)3.88 damage

**harlokin**

Tyel wrote:
Its a similar cry with DE. "gib HQ options pls" - why? Special characters might be nice, but I really cannot see how the faction changes at all if you give say an Archon a skyboard or jetbike and voila, he's move 14-18 instead of 8". He still does the same old thing and has the same old problems.

Just to address this point. If nothing else it lends variety, it would be super easy to convert the current Drukhari HQs to have wings, a jetbike, or a skyboard.

More substantially, Drukhari are a mostly transport-based army, but suffer from the annoying problem of trying fit HQs into transports that carry multiples of 5, and when you manage it you get no benefit from the HQ's aura. The alternative is to footslog the HQ while the rest of the army zips about....which is thematically a bit gak.

**the_scotsman**

Breton wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
There have been multiple good arguments in this thread about why more attacks wouldn't help banshees.

Also not the argument I made. The only specific suggestion I've made for banshees so far was to up them to 2W in repsponse (with a non-specific offset to slightly lower their large charge range) to someone else's idea of buffing them to the 20PPM range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
10 Intercessors vs 10 Banshees no upgrades anywhere is...not anywhere close to a fight. I'm not sure how you could possibly get to even banshees killing 4 marines.

10 Banshees 21 attacks, (67%)14 hit, (33%)4.62 wound, (16%)3.88 damage

Right, which kills 2 marines. Not 4.

**Breton**

the_scotsman wrote:

Right, which kills 2 marines. Not 4.

In turn 1. I’ll bet they can get to 4 before too long?

Or are you referring to the comparison to previous Edition +1A +1A charge, pistol CCW? 41 attacks, 28 or so hits, 9 or so wounds, 8 or so damage? I’m not sure what you’re objecting to? I said 10 banshee kill 2 Intercessors... the old combat rules it jumps to 4?

Edit to add: there may have been a post where I pointed out equal points banshee vs Intercessors would do 4? I’m really not sure?

**the_scotsman**

"According to the math in the post 10 kill 2 on the first round. 21 attacks, 14 hits, 4.64 wounds, 3.9 after saves. The marines kill just over 4 in return then start losing badly."

That's what I'm referring to. Primarily, the "Then Start Losing Badly" part.

8 intercessors, assuming Chainsword sgt, assuming -1 to hit in melee ability on banshees.

4.33 wounds. Next round, presumably it's the intercessors' players turn, they kill 1.77 with pistols and we'll round up to 2 because of the .33 leftover from last round.

4 remaining banshees fight first if their player selects them first, deal 1.66 damage, we'll be generous and round up to 1 more dead intercessor. Intercessors then punch without Shock Assault and 2.66 more. We'll be generous to the intercessors as well, 3 more dead banshees.

Where am I missing that the intercessors start "losing quite badly?" or that the combat "Takes a long time"? I'm looking at this and by the time the Eldar player's next turn rolls around, just the exarch is left fighting 7 space marines. They in fact never get to four dead marines.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Banshee should be something like:
2 attacks on profile, +1 for weapon, +3 on the first round of combat from special rule.
S3, AP-4, D2.
Rule to make opponent strike last in first turn of combat.
But just 1W T3 4+.

**Ordana**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Banshee should be something like:
2 attacks on profile, +1 for weapon, +3 on the first round of combat from special rule.
S3, AP-4, D2.
Rule to make opponent strike last in first turn of combat.
But just 1W T3 4+.

+3 attacks in the first round make them absolutely chew through fodder instead of being elite killers.
What does that do to the space for striking scorpions?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Ordana wrote:
+3 attacks in the first round make them absolutely chew through fodder instead of being elite killers.
What does that do to the space for striking scorpions?

Maybe they get same number of attacks, S4 AP-1 D1, but they get to attack twice?

[edit]Maybe with the new marines it's better to make the banshee get only +2 attacks but being D3[/edit]

**Dysartes**

Well, WHC just confirmed that Banshees will get the new power sword profile - +1S, -3AP, D1 - at the same time the SM 'dex drops.

**Voss**

Dysartes wrote:
Well, WHC just confirmed that Banshees will get the new power sword profile - +1S, -3AP, D1 - at the same time the SM 'dex drops.

Pretty sure we knew that already. The initial announcement said all same-name stuff would change. The downside is things like fusion guns don't get an free update.

Holy carp on the hand flamer though. That stands out, especially when compared to the poor inferno pistol (though at point blank range, that just obliterates people).

**Ordana**

They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...

**Voss**

Ordana wrote:
They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...

Yep. They're in the overwatch-all-the-time army, and flamers autohit and now have the range to be always useful in overwatch.
Seems like a win to me.

**Not Online!!!**

Ordana wrote:
They actually have the guts to list Crisis suits under winner for the flamers...

A helldrake with either weapon is according to them a great space marine killer aswell.

So what do you excactly expect, because atleast the crisis flamers did improve....
Kinda-

**the_scotsman**

GSC Acolytes are just...hilariously better than neophytes now.

So you're telling me that I can pay 6pts and I can get a model that has 1A, WS4+, S3 AP- in melee, and in shooting, gets an average of 1 hit S3 AP-.....

.....or for 10pts I could get a model that has 3A, WS3+, S4 with AP on 2 of those attacks in melee, and in shooting, gets 3.5 S3 Autohits?

And they're both the same slot, huh? Competing for the exact same role? 3x the damage in shooting, 4x the damage in melee, for a 40% price increase?

OK, GW....I mean if you insist....

*looks at 40$ for 10 kit

Looks at 40$ for 5 kit*

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh now it makes sense.

**Denegaar**

What about "basically the same abilities but Xenos"? We have to wait for our codex? Thinking about Heat Lances and Liquifiers.

And... is a Klaive now exactly the same as a Power Sword? Doesn't feel right. At least it's a huge buff for my Hekatrixes, Sybarites, Arena Champions... and Beastmasters!!!

Edit: And Helliarchs!!! God I keep forgetting my good stuff

**the_scotsman**

Denegaar wrote:
What about "basically the same abilities but Xenos"? We have to wait for our codex? Thinking about Heat Lances and Liquifiers.

And... is a Klaive now exactly the same as a Power Sword? Doesn't feel right. At least it's a huge buff for my Hekatrixes, Sybarites, Arena Champions... and Beastmasters!!!

Edit: And Helliarchs!!! God I keep forgetting my good stuff

Given that not a single xenos unit they listed had a "slightly differently named" thing, I'm guessing even direct identical analogues like Power Klaws, Killsaws, Fusion Guns etc will not be receiving the buffs until their codexes.

I'd like to be pleasantly surprised. but I'm betting it's only identically named stuff.

**Denegaar**

Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.

The Klaive thing bugs me though...

**VladimirHerzog**

Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.

The Klaive thing bugs me though...

Klaives might be changed when the codex comes out.

**the_scotsman**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Denegaar wrote:
Yeah, I hope waiting means different abilities on those weapons and not just the same treatment but later.

The Klaive thing bugs me though...

Klaives might be changed when the codex comes out.

Yeah, probably.

....

Still irritating that they came out with a new kit for the unit and didn't decide to do anything to fix their super underwhelming rules.