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Karol wrote:

If you think that a change to how marine and necron auras work , affects one person, then I think am writing all of this in worse english they I normaly do.

You've missed the point. Again.

Each player in your wrestling analogy represents an army. GW isnt making changes to the underlying rules for how auras work. They are applying specific alterations to individual auras in individual armies with respect to how those auras will interact with units in their respective codices.

Karol wrote:

It isn't. That is the problem. The aura change is a big change, that affects multiple armies.

Thank you for recognizing that army and unit specific rules have no place in the core rulebook.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Now the armies core identity has been deleted.

Here I thought that the army's core identity was being flexible jack-of-all-trades units with good base statlines at a premium cost.

If the army's identity came to actually revolve around blobbing up and eliminating randomness through tedious and time-consuming re-rolls, good riddance.

I am speaking of the play-style identity. Powerful buff HQ is the signature of the marines now. Now these buff HQ have lost the ability to buff the majority of their army.

It would appear that unless the majority of your army was heavy support battletanks or dreadnoughts and the like, this is not actually the case, and if it was, you were playing a list likely to be invalidated or radically changed in some way by any new codex regardless as often happens with such builds. It would appear that most infantry units, at least going by the vibe of the article, will be "core", perhaps not all, but enough that the bulk of units in most armies should be "core".

Edit: got covered

 Denegaar wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Am I the only one expecting a "Core if" mechanic (e.g., Necron Destroyers are core if the warlord is a Destroyer Lord)?

That'd be awesome, it happens quite a lot in AoS if I'm not mistaken, Elite units that become Troops depending on the subfaction. Could be the same but with the CORE keyword. It gives armies with less variety a lot more open to new types of playstyle.

I can definitely see that working for Dark Angels: termies (and maybe some gravis) become core if Deathwing, bikes,speeders and other FA become core if Ravenwing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


And yes even if you priced double shooting for Oblits at 3CP and CSM troops at ZERO CP you'd still not use it on the Chaos Marines. Some offense just isn't worth buffing to begin with.

It's late game, your Obliterators are dead, you're running low on CPs and your CSMs are in a critical fight for an objective.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I am speaking of the play-style identity. Powerful buff HQ is the signature of the marines now. Now these buff HQ have lost the ability to buff the majority of their army.

It would appear that unless the majority of your army was heavy support battletanks or dreadnoughts and the like, this is not actually the case, and if it was, you were playing a list likely to be invalidated or radically changed in some way by any new codex regardless as often happens with such builds. It would appear that most infantry units, at least going by the vibe of the article, will be "core", perhaps not all, but enough that the bulk of units in most armies should be "core".

I had a reply typed out to address this point, but deleted it as it was coming across snarky.

Thank you for putting across my very thoughts in a much more succinct manner.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

But then you'll have the arbitrary "this unit doesn't get rerolls because...reasons". It's inconsistency to say those two Gravis units don't get rerolls but Inceptors and Heavy Intercessors do. There's a problem with the core units and the Captain already.

And yes even if you priced double shooting for Oblits at 3CP and CSM troops at ZERO CP you'd still not use it on the Chaos Marines. Some offense just isn't worth buffing to begin with.

*shrug* there's still a fair bit we don't know so I won't jump to conclusions.

I'm happy that GW is willing and able to put another button they can push to limit balance swings.

Alright, so marines's thing isnt to be stuck to HQs for buffs, thats just a consequence of 8th's design. Theyre a jack of all trade army with a solid defensive profile (t4, 3+).

And this change doesn't need to be in the core rulebook, its litterally just adding a keyword to certain auras and datasheet. Its already covered by the same rule that says you can't use a CM reroll on a model of another chapter.

New Space marine stratagem : "for 1 CP, any ability that would normally apply to Core unit only, can be applied to any unit in your army"

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Not really.

This is a far, far cry from a Ynnari / GSC-style gutting of an army.

Marines get off very, very lightly for the unprecedented mess they made of the game for the past 12 months.

The past 12 months, of which something like 6 or 7 have been marked by a global pandemic that saw shops stop hosting events?

Please be less hyperbolic. Most of us never got a chance to ever actually play with the stuff from our faction's Psychic Awakening books.

 Ghaz wrote:
Am I the only one expecting a "Core if" mechanic (e.g., Necron Destroyers are core if the warlord is a Destroyer Lord)?

I can definitely see this 'Core' keyword being precursor/set up to that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

But then you'll have the arbitrary "this unit doesn't get rerolls because...reasons". It's inconsistency to say those two Gravis units don't get rerolls but Inceptors and Heavy Intercessors do. There's a problem with the core units and the Captain already.

And yes even if you priced double shooting for Oblits at 3CP and CSM troops at ZERO CP you'd still not use it on the Chaos Marines. Some offense just isn't worth buffing to begin with.

*shrug* there's still a fair bit we don't know so I won't jump to conclusions.

We already know it'll be most Infantry and some vehicles getting the Core keyword per the article. So if even Terminators, the most elite of the elite, get the rule even though fluff wise they should be independent and get the job done, it means anything else besides maybe Fliers (they can't hear the Captain unless he's on board, sure whatever) would be an arbitrary "we don't know how to price units and auras close to correctly at all". Then we already have issues with auras, like with Archons interacting with anything, that still have yet to be fixed.

bfdhud wrote:


I was horrified and saddened by what happened to GSC.. Their identity was nerfed out of the gate. Then a SM chapter came along that was better at it then they were... There is no reason to play purple guardsmen.

Shouldn't have played an NPC faction then.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

We already know it'll be most Infantry and some vehicles getting the Core keyword per the article. So if even Terminators, the most elite of the elite, get the rule even though fluff wise they should be independent and get the job done, it means anything else besides maybe Fliers (they can't hear the Captain unless he's on board, sure whatever) would be an arbitrary "we don't know how to price units and auras close to correctly at all". Then we already have issues with auras, like with Archons interacting with anything, that still have yet to be fixed.

As noted by others - you can't cost the value of an aura that affects a 3/4/500 point unit the same as a 100 point unit. You will create adverse consequences. Points are not the solution to every problem.

I'm sure Archons will get dealt with in their book.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

This is the problem with the world today. People like this speaking about what others have said and bending the truth with malicious slander.

I am not and never have been a defender of GWs rules. They are terrible at writing rules. Routinely I call out the Anti-marine hate on Dakka because it is omnipresent. Anytime marines have something remotely powerful it is instagibbed. Now the armies core identity has been deleted. Meanwhile for months or years other armies best performing tournament winning abilities will remain untouched. Because marines are not allowed to be relevant for long. Also I manage to make my points without insulting people.

Not really.

This is a far, far cry from a Ynnari / GSC-style gutting of an army.

Marines get off very, very lightly for the unprecedented mess they made of the game for the past 12 months.

Wait, I lost track of this thread for a sec, is Xeno saying that...captain and lieutenant reroll auras are the CORE IDENTITY of space marines?

A rule that GW explicitly states is going to ALL ARMIES and an ability that is shared by very nearly every single other faction in the game is the CORE IDENTITY of space marines getting gutted?

Lol.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Not really.

This is a far, far cry from a Ynnari / GSC-style gutting of an army.

Marines get off very, very lightly for the unprecedented mess they made of the game for the past 12 months.

The past 12 months, of which something like 6 or 7 have been marked by a global pandemic that saw shops stop hosting events?

Please be less hyperbolic. Most of us never got a chance to ever actually play with the stuff from our faction's Psychic Awakening books.

Exactly...it was approximately a 3 month period of ironhand silliness which everyone even space marine players were like...wut? That got gutted pretty good. Ironhands still strong in competitive though.

The majority of people have not really been playing for 6 months.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

We already know it'll be most Infantry and some vehicles getting the Core keyword per the article. So if even Terminators, the most elite of the elite, get the rule even though fluff wise they should be independent and get the job done, it means anything else besides maybe Fliers (they can't hear the Captain unless he's on board, sure whatever) would be an arbitrary "we don't know how to price units and auras close to correctly at all". Then we already have issues with auras, like with Archons interacting with anything, that still have yet to be fixed.

As noted by others - you can't cost the value of an aura that affects a 3/4/500 point unit the same as a 100 point unit. You will create adverse consequences. Points are not the solution to every problem.

I'm sure Archons will get dealt with in their book.

You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

We already know it'll be most Infantry and some vehicles getting the Core keyword per the article. So if even Terminators, the most elite of the elite, get the rule even though fluff wise they should be independent and get the job done, it means anything else besides maybe Fliers (they can't hear the Captain unless he's on board, sure whatever) would be an arbitrary "we don't know how to price units and auras close to correctly at all". Then we already have issues with auras, like with Archons interacting with anything, that still have yet to be fixed.

As noted by others - you can't cost the value of an aura that affects a 3/4/500 point unit the same as a 100 point unit. You will create adverse consequences. Points are not the solution to every problem.

I'm sure Archons will get dealt with in their book.

You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?

Ultramarines actually have the best aggressors. Can move and shoot them for free and double shoot - they've got full reroll too. If that is a problem why aren't they dominating events? It is clearly not a problem. The problem is stratagems that allow salamanders aggressors who get damage buffs to their flame weapons that Ultras can't get but can still move and shoot twice like ultras can. These are balance issues that are easy to spot. Which units can stack the most rules at once? They are going to dominate the game and they do. The issue has always been rules stacking not any individual ability.

I know this core keyword with auras is a bad fix because it doesn't even fix aggressors or eradicators getting rerolls...But bad units like repulsors are actually called out as not getting the buffs. Heck if they drop in points a bunch I'll be ecstatic...I am realistic though. They will probably go UP in price.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I like this rule but am kind of bummed that it's an "extra" rule pasted in, not in the actual BRB...

So. How would you put in corebook that satisfies this

A) some aura　but not all affect only core
B) most infantry but not all are core
C) most vehicles but not all are non-core.

Literally only way would be huge list of aura's affected and core units　in rulebook. You created huge flipflopping between　rulebook and codex

So as someone whose melee characters can't receive reroll buffs, get ready to experience some serious rage. It's AMAZING how many 2+ rolls a character can miss when it's important.

On the whole this is for the better. There were simply too many rerolls in the game already and far too many units, especially space marine ones, could easily get over 90% accuracy. The real crux of the matter will be what units receive core and what don't.

I am interested in how this will impact Chaos Space Marines. That book has relied on powerful character for a while now. Considering the limited HQ slots and this, that army has to see a significant rework right? For that matter what about the lord discordant? He's meant to buff demon engines but surely those won't be core right? Same goes for wraith units with the spirit seer.

It's not elegant for this to be in the Core rulebook. I guess not all auras will work the same... and they should release a huge FAQ for all the factions that don't have a Codex telling us what is CORE and what not...

tneva82 wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I like this rule but am kind of bummed that it's an "extra" rule pasted in, not in the actual BRB...

So. How would you put in corebook that satisfies this

A) some aura　but not all affect only core
B) most infantry but not all are core
C) most vehicles but not all are non-core.

Literally only way would be huge list of aura's affected and core units　in rulebook. You created huge flipflopping between　rulebook and codex

This is simply the best way to do this. It's the same keyword checking we've been doing for a full edition now, just with more differentiation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Denegaar wrote:
It's not elegant for this to be in the Core rulebook. I guess not all auras will work the same... and they should release a huge FAQ for all the factions that don't have a Codex telling us what is CORE and what not...

It says in the article that you don't have to worry about it(paraphrase) until your codex comes out. So...nothing outside of SM and Necrons is core atm.

 Denegaar wrote:
It's not elegant for this to be in the Core rulebook. I guess not all auras will work the same... and they should release a huge FAQ for all the factions that don't have a Codex telling us what is CORE and what not...

What codex's actually contain multiple aura's that arn't already keyed to keywords, units or some other such qualifiers?

I'm genuinely asking as plenty of xeno codex's heck even guard seem to be lightly effected by this if at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

We already know it'll be most Infantry and some vehicles getting the Core keyword per the article. So if even Terminators, the most elite of the elite, get the rule even though fluff wise they should be independent and get the job done, it means anything else besides maybe Fliers (they can't hear the Captain unless he's on board, sure whatever) would be an arbitrary "we don't know how to price units and auras close to correctly at all". Then we already have issues with auras, like with Archons interacting with anything, that still have yet to be fixed.

As noted by others - you can't cost the value of an aura that affects a 3/4/500 point unit the same as a 100 point unit. You will create adverse consequences. Points are not the solution to every problem.

I'm sure Archons will get dealt with in their book.

You certainly can if the unit isn't too powerful to begin with. Look at the complaints with Aggressors for example. They talked about hoping they dont get Core because of the double shooting. Ya think maybe the latter part is ACTUALLY the problem?

Ultramarines actually have the best aggressors. Can move and shoot them for free and double shoot - they've got full reroll too. If that is a problem why aren't they dominating events? It is clearly not a problem. The problem is stratagems that allow salamanders aggressors who get damage buffs to their flame weapons that Ultras can't get but can still move and shoot twice like ultras can. These are balance issues that are easy to spot. Which units can stack the most rules at once? They are going to dominate the game and they do. The issue has always been rules stacking not any individual ability.

I know this core keyword with auras is a bad fix because it doesn't even fix aggressors or eradicators getting rerolls...But bad units like repulsors are actually called out as not getting the buffs. Heck if they drop in points a bunch I'll be ecstatic...I am realistic though. They will probably go UP in price.

-3 flyers weren't dominating events and they were a problem. Smite Spam wasn't dominating events...2 out of the 3 times it was a problem, and it was still a problem. A unit doesn't have to instantly give free wins to be a problem. It can just...be a problem. Ultramarine and Salamanders aggressors are a problem because they mean that no other marine faction can take aggressors. If an aggressor is good enough to be worth it's points shooting once(, then it's SIGNIFICANTLY better than its points shooting twice(which only ultramarines can reliably do) or shooting with a bunch of buffs (salamanders).

It's why girlyman use to be such a problem. Anything that was good without girlyman became INSANE with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Now the armies core identity has been deleted.

Here I thought that the army's core identity was being flexible jack-of-all-trades units with good base statlines at a premium cost.

If the army's identity came to actually revolve around blobbing up and eliminating randomness through tedious and time-consuming re-rolls, good riddance.

I am speaking of the play-style identity. Powerful buff HQ is the signature of the marines now. Now these buff HQ have lost the ability to buff the majority of their army. Also if you really consider it = rerolls speed up the game - the more players kill the less actions to take in the next turn. All for the cost of picking up a few dice on 1's and 2's and rerolling them.

Please tell me the litany of other replies you got already got through to you and you've realized how silly this is.

That's like whining about losing the gladius at the beginning of 8th because the 'marines core identity is free rhinos now!'

Ice_can wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
It's not elegant for this to be in the Core rulebook. I guess not all auras will work the same... and they should release a huge FAQ for all the factions that don't have a Codex telling us what is CORE and what not...

What codex's actually contain multiple aura's that arn't already keyed to keywords, units or some other such qualifiers?

I'm genuinely asking as plenty of xeno codex's heck even guard seem to be lightly effected by this if at all.

I guess not many? I don't know either, I only play one army... and basically I have 4 auras in my codex.

If I would get the SM treatment right now, probably only one of them would be useful. That's why I think every Codex should address the thing differently and not in the Core Rulebook.

ERJAK wrote:
So as someone whose melee characters can't receive reroll buffs, get ready to experience some serious rage. It's AMAZING how many 2+ rolls a character can miss when it's important.

What does it being important have to do with it? In my experience, Celestine regularly misses 2 of her 6 attacks. I expect it at this point.

 alextroy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So as someone whose melee characters can't receive reroll buffs, get ready to experience some serious rage. It's AMAZING how many 2+ rolls a character can miss when it's important.

What does it being important have to do with it? In my experience, Celestine regularly misses 2 of her 6 attacks. I expect it at this point.

Because when it's important it's 4 of 6.

ERJAK wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So as someone whose melee characters can't receive reroll buffs, get ready to experience some serious rage. It's AMAZING how many 2+ rolls a character can miss when it's important.

What does it being important have to do with it? In my experience, Celestine regularly misses 2 of her 6 attacks. I expect it at this point.

Because when it's important it's 4 of 6.

I feel the pain in these words, as a Necron player with no rerolls from my Overlord that 2+ WS with 3 attacks felt like a 5+ when I needed it most....

catbarf wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Now the armies core identity has been deleted.

Here I thought that the army's core identity was being flexible jack-of-all-trades units with good base statlines at a premium cost.

If the army's identity came to actually revolve around blobbing up and eliminating randomness through tedious and time-consuming re-rolls, good riddance.

why the hell was that the armys identity? it most certainly wasnt for me.

all this powergamer bs being gotten rid of is better for the game.