Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

10 tank bustas have 4 squig bombs, which:

1) hit on 2+, so 3.33 hits
2) wound on 2+ without Transhuman, so 2.78 wounds
3) are ap -2 so 1.9 (call it 2) past saves

and each kills an intercessor on a 2+, so about 2 intercessors dead.

2 dead marines isn't nasty.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I mean...you have other strong weapons too. Those are just the AP -4 ones. Pretty sure the wombast cannon on the flyer is ap-4 too but it might be AP -3. Then you've got the chinork with 2+ to hit squig bombs...those are ap-3 or 4. You've got the buggies with the zap guns at AP-3 and the dragster. Those all have really good weapons for killing marines.

Correct me if I guess wrong, but I think you are talking about the Wazbom Mega Kannon which is basically just a worse version of the KMK. D3 S8 -3 D6D, hit rolls of 1 cause 1 Mortal wound to itself

Averages .77 hits a turn, against Gravis its 0.51 wounds and -3 its 0.43 chance to go through armor and do 3.5 dmg. So its got less than a 50% chance to kill 1 gravis model a turn.

The Chinork is a FW model, it doesn't have "Squig Bombs", it has LEGENDS access to big bombs. So literally no idea what you are talking about here.

Buggies don't have Zzap gunz, The KBB has a Rivet Kannon which averages 1 dead Marine a turn (non gravis). The Scrapjet kills about 1.5 Marines a turn (non gravis). The RTSB averages 1 Dead marine a turn (non Gravis), the SJD averages 1 dead Marine a turn (non gravis)

So all those buggies are 90-110pts and kill about 1 Marine a turn. Not exactly slaying bodies my friend.

Xeno not knowing gak about orks is not a new thing. You can literally assume every single thing he ever writes about orks is as wrong as it can be.
He frequently gets stomped by his ork friend because he can't play his own army well and then assumes that everything defeating him is extremely powerful.

But yes, the only AP-4 or better weapons in the ork codex is the smasha gun, the stompa's deff kannon and the SAG.

SemperMortis wrote:

Klickor wrote:


Ofc we have to add some strats and outside rules when discussing units. Especially for units like repentias that live or die by those outside rules. Miracle dice etc are quite crucial to that unit. You wouldnt ignore reanimation protocol for Necron units, order for AM or canticles for ad mech when discussing them. Or stratagems that are made for/intended for certain units.

Aggressors are definetly a better unit in isolation than for example Repentias. It is quite obvious and even pointless discussing further that point. And for the record I dont even think the 2 units can be compared in a useful manner at all. They are just too different and play nothing alike and Repentias dont even work on their own. Nothing wrong with Repentias for that. They obviously are not intended to be able to just march up the board without 0 support and consideration about synergies. Most marine units are, especially now that auras and strats were reigned in a lot.

Than by that same metric, give those Aggressors similar buffs from outside units/traits/strats and watch the pendulum swing even further.

To make those Repentia worthy even taking you have to use all those buffs, Aggressors are already good enough on their own, when you increase their durability or dmg potential with outside sources it skews the results even further in their direction, and that is the point we are making. If you want to throw on CP to make repentia good, than do the same to aggressors and go ahead and compare again. I'll bet you dollars to donuts Repentia are not nearly as good, even fully buffed, as Aggressors fully buffed

Depends. You dont get as much extra out of each CP spent on aggressors compared to what you get from Repentia. Aggressors also dont really give marines something you couldnt get from just using other units while repentias gives something sisters cant easily get somewhere else.

In my BA lists I would rather have buffed repentias than some aggressors since they would fit my play style more. Vastly different units in vastly different roles in vastly different armies cant really be compared. Might as well compare servitors in aggressive marine lists to Tank Commanders in guard lists. I would vote on servitors being the better unit. They hold objectives and can do actions for a faction of the cost.

Klickor wrote:


Depends. You dont get as much extra out of each CP spent on aggressors compared to what you get from Repentia. Aggressors also dont really give marines something you couldnt get from just using other units while repentias gives something sisters cant easily get somewhere else.

In my BA lists I would rather have buffed repentias than some aggressors since they would fit my play style more. Vastly different units in vastly different roles in vastly different armies cant really be compared. Might as well compare servitors in aggressive marine lists to Tank Commanders in guard lists. I would vote on servitors being the better unit. They hold objectives and can do actions for a faction of the cost.

So there are other SM units running around which in the shooting phase earn back 60% of their points cost shooting at horde units, and who can jump into CC and deal 4 S8 -3 AP attacks each? I'm joking. I know (Thank god) no other Marine unit like that exists.

As far as adding in bonuses and what not to make them better? Umm...yeah, there are a ton. For instance, there's the little free bonus of a chapter trait like exploding 6s, and -1 AP in tactical phase. That alone ups Aggressors from doing 3.33 dmg to ork boyz per model to 5. Add in support like a Chapter Master and its just about 7 dead ork boyz, or a 124% return on just the aggressor. I think doubling efficiency vs a target is kind of important, hell, you could even add in an LT if you wanted. The most hilarious part? some of the players here still think Aggressors suck and have said as much.

I wont go into the stratagems because I am not as familiar with those, but I would assume there are some in there that are amazing, even if its as bland as auspex scan which basically lets them shoot on your opponents turn.

I never paid much attention to the eyesore Primaris vehicles, but with this new 'Dex did one of them go from being a Transport to a Heavy Support slot?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never paid much attention to the eyesore Primaris vehicles, but with this new 'Dex did one of them go from being a Transport to a Heavy Support slot?

The Repulsor went to Heavy Support.

What are people's reactions to that?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are people's reactions to that?

/shrug

Compared to being overpriced, (more) overcosted, losing some key traits (like fly) and others converting to a CP cost, the slot is the least of its problems.

All told it moved from 'I will probably never buy this model' to 'I will definitely never buy this model.'

It still has a bucket of mid-range, mid-strength guns, but, well, those aren't rare for marines. (Can't fact check it at the moment, but I think a pair of redemptors is about the same points with a slightly better weapon loadout between them, and the whole permanent -1 damage buff)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are people's reactions to that?

right now it's just to shrug, no one really bothered with repulsors anyway. when heavy intercessor models are avaliable and people use them on the table there's the possiability we MIGHT feel it a bit more as we're not going to be able to put them in Impulsors,but yeah by and large "no one took them anyway so no one cares"

Wonder why they removed the fly keyword from hover tanks?

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, eradicators as they are wouldn't be a problem at all if they were 50$ each model like smasha gunz.

Because you know, even if they are massively overpowered, there would be very low chances to see even a single 3man squad for that price. Smasha gunz are extremely good, but it's unlikely to see even a few of them on the table, let alone a list with tons of them: theoryhammer not always matches real life.

Yeaahhh but an ork player could just tip out the contents of your workspace bin (the one under the desk we all have), squirt some glue on the pile and just pick up whatever gets glued together, stick a piece of straw for a barrel and voila...

 Argive wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, eradicators as they are wouldn't be a problem at all if they were 50$ each model like smasha gunz.

Because you know, even if they are massively overpowered, there would be very low chances to see even a single 3man squad for that price. Smasha gunz are extremely good, but it's unlikely to see even a few of them on the table, let alone a list with tons of them: theoryhammer not always matches real life.

Yeaahhh but an ork player could just tip out the contents of your workspace bin (the one under the desk we all have), squirt some glue on the pile and just pick up whatever gets glued together, stick a piece of straw for a barrel and voila...

I absolutely ADORE those kind Ork players.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are people's reactions to that?

It was only in the last year my Primaris only army really filled up on heavy support options between the Eliminators (both a squad of Stalker Bolt Rifles and Las Fusils), Hellblasters (5 or each type), Repulsor, Repulsor Executioner and Eradicators. I also plan on getting a Gladiator at very least further adding options to that slot.

I run lists of what I want and have over what is best. I mean, I generally run 20 Reivers (and lean heavy with Primaris Phobos stuff) if that gives you any idea of the Primaris army lists I write. That said, I already leaned towards few vehicles for my Primaris army often foregoing any vehicles since mine aren't completely painted, tougher to transport to the FLGS and I have never been that big of a fan of any 40k vehicle aesthetic. Not to mention every other miniatures war game I always leaned heavier on infantry over any other unit type. Heck, my GSC doesn't even have enough Heavy Support units to fill a Brigade yet. So my Repulsor and Repulsor only saw the table a couple of times already back when my collection had a tough time filling Heavy Support, anti-tank or even 2,000pts. This was made that much easier with the repulsor being Dedicated Transport though.

It makes a sort of sense that the repulsor is being listed more as a gunboat than transport. So I am not upset about it and understand the general 'shrug' comments. I certainly didn't use them as transports. However, I now that I have too few Heavy Support slots filled with units I generally like to take more but not enough to justify spending CP for an extra detachment for more slots it is going to be tough to fit in. So regardless if the repulsor was a good or bad datasheet, I am unlikely to field anywhere close to few times I already did. Chances are my model will only see the table when I finish painting it to kinda show it off before it is relegated to just being a wallflower in future army on parade photos.

Which in some respects it is a waste. But I think its mere presence in parade photos make the army look more complete and helps break up fairly large number of Primaris infantry I have. Worst comes to worse, I can probably have it count as another Executioner should I want a list to have two of them at some point.

I mean it makes sense to me as the repulsor is basicly the primaris land raider and LRs haven't been DTs since 5th edition. but yeah, it's moved from a "unlikely to take" to a "never take"

And maybe the fly thing was taken away to differentiate them from the new Primaris Land Speeder.

I mean, if they can all fly around as skimmers, why even have the Landspeeder?

Fly never made sense for them. the tanks aren't flying around, they're hovering just above the ground

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And maybe the fly thing was taken away to differentiate them from the new Primaris Land Speeder.

I mean, if they can all fly around as skimmers, why even have the Landspeeder?

Well Fly didn't make much sense how they were presented in the lore. And the cheezy things that could be done with it always led to the 'feels bad' which was also the lemon juice of salted wound of the Codex: Space Marine 2.0 for 8th. I would argue that the model didn't really need it to be effective either. I would have much rather some of the weapons on the Repulsor/Repulsor Executioner be treated as point defense weapons only useable in Overwatch and Close-Quarters. Both reducing the points cost while keeping the model something not any geek off the street wants to get entangled with.

BrianDavion wrote:
Fly never made sense for them. the tanks aren't flying around, they're hovering just above the ground

To be fair, other skimmers aren't "flying around" either. They're skimmers. They skim!

If they could just fly around like that then there'd be no distinction between them and actual aircraft.

Friend of mine always thought that Eldar Grav-Tanks were light fighter jets. I kept telling him that if that were the case, why would the Eldar have actual fighter jets? Closest they can be is troop-carrying helicopters and helicopter gunships (with the Valk somewhere in between!). This would apply to Marine Land Speeders, Tau hover tanks, Dark Eldar Raiders, and so on.

And if the new Stormspeeder had Fly, and the Impulsor/Repulsor/Gladiator also had Fly... then they wouldn't really be any different, would they?

Also, I quite like the idea that the Imperium can do hover-tanks, but that they present no real advantage over their standard ground-based vehicles.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
... not any geek off the street ...

So what you're saying is that the next Marine tank should be called a Regulator?

 Argive wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, eradicators as they are wouldn't be a problem at all if they were 50$ each model like smasha gunz.

Because you know, even if they are massively overpowered, there would be very low chances to see even a single 3man squad for that price. Smasha gunz are extremely good, but it's unlikely to see even a few of them on the table, let alone a list with tons of them: theoryhammer not always matches real life.

Yeaahhh but an ork player could just tip out the contents of your workspace bin (the one under the desk we all have), squirt some glue on the pile and just pick up whatever gets glued together, stick a piece of straw for a barrel and voila...

All my mek gunz are scratch built, and I wouldn't even consider an ork collection a proper one if it hasn't got tons of conversions and self-made models, but not all players can actually scratch build stuff. All those converted models are also illegal at events.

 Blackie wrote:
All my mek gunz are scratch built, and I wouldn't even consider an ork collection a proper one if it hasn't got tons of conversions and self-made models, but not all players can actually scratch build stuff. All those converted models are also illegal at events.

Since games workshop deletes datasheets that don't have models, this attitude is in direct contravention to GW's vision for the game (see: Biker Warboss).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are people's reactions to that?

At last!!!

My Battlewagons have always been Heavy Support, even without a single ranged or melee weapon.

Honestly I don't think expensive and highly armored gunboats like those SM tanks should be dedicated transports, the change is a good one. It doesn't really affect the game that much but it makes a lot of sense.

Hecaton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
All my mek gunz are scratch built, and I wouldn't even consider an ork collection a proper one if it hasn't got tons of conversions and self-made models, but not all players can actually scratch build stuff. All those converted models are also illegal at events.

Since games workshop deletes datasheets that don't have models, this attitude is in direct contravention to GW's vision for the game (see: Biker Warboss).

Ok 1: the Bike warboss was moved out of legends because it's being moved into the FW Index... for a TOURNY minded player thats actually GOOD news.
2: as he said those conversions are all illegal at most tournies anyway so I'd assume if he's using them he's likely willing to use legends.

Hecaton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
All my mek gunz are scratch built, and I wouldn't even consider an ork collection a proper one if it hasn't got tons of conversions and self-made models, but not all players can actually scratch build stuff. All those converted models are also illegal at events.

Since games workshop deletes datasheets that don't have models, this attitude is in direct contravention to GW's vision for the game (see: Biker Warboss).

I was talking about scratch building models with existing datasheets, instead of buying the official ones. Like mek gunz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
All my mek gunz are scratch built, and I wouldn't even consider an ork collection a proper one if it hasn't got tons of conversions and self-made models, but not all players can actually scratch build stuff. All those converted models are also illegal at events.

Since games workshop deletes datasheets that don't have models, this attitude is in direct contravention to GW's vision for the game (see: Biker Warboss).

Ok 1: the Bike warboss was moved out of legends because it's being moved into the FW Index... for a TOURNY minded player thats actually GOOD news.
2: as he said those conversions are all illegal at most tournies anyway so I'd assume if he's using them he's likely willing to use legends.

Not legends, conversions of codex models. Tournaments typically allow only official GW models, not 3rd party miniatures or vehicles in plasticard.

BrianDavion wrote:
Ok 1: the Bike warboss was moved out of legends because it's being moved into the FW Index... for a TOURNY minded player thats actually GOOD news.

Why are you trying to blow smoke up my ass? Orks are *losing* datasheets while Space Marines are gaining them at an unprecedented rate. Dark Eldar can't even mount an HQ on a jetbike. This is not good news for anyone but the primaris fanclub. For an ork player who wants to play in tourneys, this is bad news, unequivocally.

 Blackie wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What are people's reactions to that?

At last!!!

My Battlewagons have always been Heavy Support, even without a single ranged or melee weapon.

Honestly I don't think expensive and highly armored gunboats like those SM tanks should be dedicated transports, the change is a good one. It doesn't really affect the game that much but it makes a lot of sense.

Honestly few people cared. People who hate Marines love it because it's a nerf of any kind. The LR/Repulsor hull is the only thing that can transport Terminators/Gravis so Dedicated Transport might make sense. People who only play Orks might bitch because while their Trukks can transport MANz, the grass is always greener and the only Transport of any kind for Terminators/Gravis shouldn't be a Dedicated Transport. Even if they are so bad people rarely take them.

The other reason for the move is that Custodes LR's are Heavy Support, and if you take that away they have zero GW HS models, just FW.

SemperMortis wrote:

Klickor wrote:


Depends. You dont get as much extra out of each CP spent on aggressors compared to what you get from Repentia. Aggressors also dont really give marines something you couldnt get from just using other units while repentias gives something sisters cant easily get somewhere else.

In my BA lists I would rather have buffed repentias than some aggressors since they would fit my play style more. Vastly different units in vastly different roles in vastly different armies cant really be compared. Might as well compare servitors in aggressive marine lists to Tank Commanders in guard lists. I would vote on servitors being the better unit. They hold objectives and can do actions for a faction of the cost.

So there are other SM units running around which in the shooting phase earn back 60% of their points cost shooting at horde units, and who can jump into CC and deal 4 S8 -3 AP attacks each? I'm joking. I know (Thank god) no other Marine unit like that exists.

As far as adding in bonuses and what not to make them better? Umm...yeah, there are a ton. For instance, there's the little free bonus of a chapter trait like exploding 6s, and -1 AP in tactical phase. That alone ups Aggressors from doing 3.33 dmg to ork boyz per model to 5. Add in support like a Chapter Master and its just about 7 dead ork boyz, or a 124% return on just the aggressor. I think doubling efficiency vs a target is kind of important, hell, you could even add in an LT if you wanted. The most hilarious part? some of the players here still think Aggressors suck and have said as much.

I wont go into the stratagems because I am not as familiar with those, but I would assume there are some in there that are amazing, even if its as bland as auspex scan which basically lets them shoot on your opponents turn.

Sure, no other unit is exactly like the aggressors but that doesnt mean that aggressors are needed or extremely good in a space marine army. You get 2 intercessors with assault 3 rifles that have obsec and take up a troop slot for the same price as an aggressor. They are more mobile and have more range and with 6 ranged shots and 6 melee attacks they arent bad against hordes. Since I need troops anyway I will already have some anti horde capacity.

Lots of lists have bikes now since they are fast and you get a lot of shots+melee attacks on them. Or Invictors/redemptors that are also faster than Aggressors and have lots of dakka. Aggressors are a good unit but they dont stand out in marines because they dont give you something that you really need in most cases. If you go all out on eradicators and BGV then Aggressors shine but in most lists you dont need them.

If you dont need their anti horde clearing ability then you are paying premium for some slow melee threat. Doesnt matter how effective they are compared to other armies units in that regard. Different armies value different things.

People compare units straight up to each other too much. It works with sub factions and between almost identical armies like chaos knights vs imperial knights or guard vs brood brothers. Outside of that how the individual units perform against each other is unimportant.

Eradicators looks to be too good and it doesnt really matter if there are other melta units that are better or worse in other armies at doing that job. Guard have cheaper melta and anti tank but that isnt seen as a problem because they are a weaker army with more weaknesses. It is fine for them to have more effective anti tank point for point since they dont get easy access to cheap and rather durable and versatile troops. In the same way aggressors are fine in marines since cheap anti horde, good melee and durable bodies arent valued high in that army. Cheap and easy to get anti tank at range without weaknesses/risks on the other hand is something marines probably shouldnt get. At least drop pod devastators or combi/special weapon veterans are vulnerable after delivering their payload and marine vehicles with good anti tank have always been very expensive(in the main codex, not FW dreads). If eradicators just had the normal meltagun range, and no MM, they would be fine. Durable, slow and short range anti tank without great delivering mechanism fits in fine in marines without breaking anything.

Having a unit kill x% of their cost in for example ork boys might be valuable in a knight or custodes army but in a marine army that is usually valued much lower. So just comparing them % vs % is quite useless.

Breton wrote:


Honestly few people cared. People who hate Marines love it because it's a nerf of any kind. The LR/Repulsor hull is the only thing that can transport Terminators/Gravis so Dedicated Transport might make sense. People who only play Orks might bitch because while their Trukks can transport MANz, the grass is always greener and the only Transport of any kind for Terminators/Gravis shouldn't be a Dedicated Transport. Even if they are so bad people rarely take them.

Termies can deep strike for free, they don't need transports and they're even faster than Manz on foot. Manz can ride in trukks but SM have rhinos/razorbacks/pods/stormravens that can carry several SM units, even dreads. I don't think any other faction can transport dreads. With new smaller tables and outflank options shooting oriented units don't really care about a ride, unless maybe they are glasscannon, which isn't the case of gravis dudes or any SM unit actually.

Give primaris a tank with T6-7 and a couple of bolters so it can be their dedicated transport. If GW designs a land raider equivalent that tank should definitely be a heavy support.

 Blackie wrote:


Give primaris a tank with T6-7 and a couple of bolters so it can be their dedicated transport. If GW designs a land raider equivalent that tank should definitely be a heavy support.

And now they can theoretically re transport, which was another benefit to Transport over Deep Strike. But its still not a transport. And They still don't fit in a Rhino. Nor is there a Rhino version of the Impulsor. But it never counts unless it's a nerf to Marines, is it?

But isn't the impulsor the primaris rhino?

 Jidmah wrote:
But isn't the impulsor the primaris rhino?

Nope, 6 or less. It's more like the Primaris Razorback. Most of the Rhino Hulls can be made by the Impulsor - the Whirlwind/Hunter/Stalker is roughly the Missile Launcher top, the Vindicator is roughly the Orbital Bombardment Top, the HB Razorback is roughly the gun top. But none of them have a transport 10's top. The only Primaris vehicle that transports 10 Intercessors is the Repulsor.