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Poly Ranger wrote:
Plus 2 Marines sat hanging out in a Rhino after its delivered the squad doesn't feel very cinematic and I imagine that many Marines in quite a few chapters would consider piloting a rhino a considerable punishment.

"But Brothers Gryalt and Syelrs, you are the most important part of the mission! Without you, the enemies of the Emperor will escape their righteous death! No, the fact you're the first Brothers to fail their marksmanship rituals in nearly three millennia has nothing to do with it. Now, remember, the BLUE button operates the ramp and the RED button makes the Storm Bolters go brrrrrrrrrrrrrr."

 insaniak wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I always preferred the lore when a marine tank was crewed by like, one techmarine looking after 5 or 6 servitors plugged into all the stations and a really angry AI- sorry- "Machine Spirit"

That's never been the lore, as far as I'm aware. Back all the way to Rogue Trader (just cracked open the Compendium to double check), while Marine support weapons used to be crewed by servitors under the command of a techmarine, Marine tanks have always been crewed by Marines. Prior to 3rd edition, they could even get out and run around the table.

In the 4th ed Vehicle Design Rules it was noted that Servitors at least partially crewed marine vehicles.

Voss wrote:

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Actually even the core aesthetics of 40k such as leman russes and rhinos for exemple, looking like literal bricks, is silly anyway!

The Russ is inspired by actual WWI tanks, particularly the Mark V and the Char B1. It's definitely bad by modern tank design standards, but that's intentional. But it works with ideas that actual (but inexperienced) tank engineers came up with.

This looks like a Mario Cart provided most of the physics and functionality.

And here's the ATV - http://www.conceptcarz.com/images/Milton-Durant/20-Milton-Durant-Racer-DV-13-AI-07.jpg

 Irbis wrote:

Soulless wrote:
Why would you put two astartes, the pinnacle of human warfare, in charge of operating a vehicle that two very expendable guardsmen could do just as well?

Because you watched too many Rambo movies.

Marines have armor on, your guardsman operates it for 2 seconds before being shot.

Guardsman is a smaller target, probably screened more effectively by the sides of the bike and the gun screen - and this is the sort of thing that light-to-medium AT weapons would be shooting at, in-universe, which should make a mess of a Guardsman or a Marine.

 Irbis wrote:
Marines have magnetic boots, your guardsman operates it for 2 seconds before being thrown clear.

If you're concerned about getting thrown clear, something like a safety harness attached to the two handrails would be very simple for even a Tech-priest to implement - however, I think you're massively underestimating how well someone could cope with that. We also have in-universe examples of Guardsmen operating Ork Warbuggies and/or Wartrakks at speed and in battle without getting thrown clear by a bump.

 Irbis wrote:
Marines are strong enough to turn heavy gun, your guardsman operates it for 2 seconds before first bump breaks his wrists.

Assuming for a moment that Deus ex Cawl isn't an idiot, and therefore has made use of bearings, and that local Tech-marines (or Tech-priests) remember the Rites of Lubrication, that big shiny weapons mount will make turning the weapon fairly straightforward for either. Will it be easier for a Marine? Sure. But it won't be unmanageable for a Guardsman. Again, I go back to Guardsmen being able to use Ork heavy weapons on their vehicles, where the mounts are less well-engineered and the weapons have more recoil.

 Irbis wrote:
Marines are strong enough to aim and control gun, your guardsman never manages to hit anything to begin with.

One weapon is a gatling gun, which are rarely known for their pinpoint precision at the best of times. You may have more of a case with the multi-melta option, but given this thing is travelling at speed, and firing at things in the chaos (not Chaos, necessarily) of a battlefield, precisely aimed shots are likely to be a luxury for either crew. Even a Guardsman should be able to comply with "Shoot that tank!", even if they might not manage "Shoot the fourth rivet on the third panel on the left of the turret!" - something the Marine is going to struggle with as well.

 Irbis wrote:
Want 50 more reasons why your premise was GIGO to begin with or are 4 enough?

Speaking of things which are GIGO, allow me to introduce you to the counter-arguments you made.

And now I feel like I've fallen into a "Someone is wrong on the Internet!" trap - though at least I'm dealing with it in my morning, not at night.

Irbis wrote:

Soulless wrote:
Why would you put two astartes, the pinnacle of human warfare, in charge of operating a vehicle that two very expendable guardsmen could do just as well?

Because you watched too many Rambo movies.

Lol

Leth wrote:Because if They have to dismount it’s still a space marine?

Good argument, the only one so far but i would argue two marines on foot are far more dangerous than two in a buggy where one is occupied driving and the other aiming a gun maybe a little more potent than a bolter (yet due to its limited siming and mobility probably far less so).

Trivial tasks such as driving and aiming fixed weaponry just doesnt fit humanitys speartip warrior angels, imo. It looks absurdly silly and even if the model was better and more convincing, the idea in itself is silly even in this absurd setting.

 Nevelon wrote:
Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.

Marines have better reflexes, can take more punishment, and have much better skills than your average guardsmen. In an ideal world, where the buggy does not take any incoming fire, is just shooting static targets, and there isn’t a lot going on, sure guard could probably get comparable results.

But zooming across some broken poison hellscape, dodging fire and obstacles, trying to like up the shot on the big bad with one hand while fending off gribbly things clawing at the bumper? That’s why you have Marines running them.

Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense. If we go down that road, none of numbers make sense, everything should just be guard and orbital bombardment, and a host of other flaws in the system show up. Embrace the Rule of Cool.

But he does make sense. A marine vehicle pilot has no problem with flying and operating multipl eweapons, but a guy who drives a buggy can not do it with just one weapon? the second dude shouldn't be needed, but I assume the 2ed dude is there, because the whole design started with the idea of making a primaris attack bikes, and attack bikes had a driver and gunner. It is like in weapon or shield design, you have non boss grip shields with a metal boss slap in the middle of the shield, because the makers can't get over the idea that a shield should have a metal boss in the middle.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.

Tell that to the Elysians.

"What is an Elysian?!?"

Karol wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.

Marines have better reflexes, can take more punishment, and have much better skills than your average guardsmen. In an ideal world, where the buggy does not take any incoming fire, is just shooting static targets, and there isn’t a lot going on, sure guard could probably get comparable results.

But zooming across some broken poison hellscape, dodging fire and obstacles, trying to like up the shot on the big bad with one hand while fending off gribbly things clawing at the bumper? That’s why you have Marines running them.

Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense. If we go down that road, none of numbers make sense, everything should just be guard and orbital bombardment, and a host of other flaws in the system show up. Embrace the Rule of Cool.

But he does make sense. A marine vehicle pilot has no problem with flying and operating multipl eweapons, but a guy who drives a buggy can not do it with just one weapon? the second dude shouldn't be needed, but I assume the 2ed dude is there, because the whole design started with the idea of making a primaris attack bikes, and attack bikes had a driver and gunner. It is like in weapon or shield design, you have non boss grip shields with a metal boss slap in the middle of the shield, because the makers can't get over the idea that a shield should have a metal boss in the middle.

....Which is just kind of a dumb argument in general for 40k.

The entire core premise of the setting, on a fundamental level, does not make sense. it approaches nowhere near 'hard sci-fi'. Fundamental to the setting is the idea that there is an entire magic system based on feelings and emotions and you have a society that is structured around the idea that the best way to solve problems militarily is by throwing human bodies at it.

"why does this tank have this wrongbad pattern of rivets!" is pointless. "Thing doesn't look cool" is the only argument that matters in 40k. If your opinion of the new primaris buggy is that it doesn't look cool, then that in itself is the best qualitative argument you can make against it.

"Space marines on tanks is dumb-" no. Space marines is dumb. Using genetic alchemy to strengthen internal organs to make lungs X% more difficult to destroy and hearts Y% more difficult to destroy is fundamentally ridiculous in a setting where marines exist right alongside techpriests who are essentially brains in jars piloting gigantic fighting robots.

You know whose heart is IMPOSSIBLE to destoy? A jarbrain robot. Who doesn't have one. And doesn't need blood.

the_scotsman wrote:
...If your opinion of the new primaris buggy is that it doesn't look cool, then that in itself is the best qualitative argument you can make against it...

Oh, absolutely. It's got the Spore-esque "strap more guns to vehicle to improve attack power!" quality of most Primaris vehicles coupled with a ludicrous wheel/pilot arrangement that looks like it was made out of lego by a child who knows dune buggies exist but has only heard them described.

Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Soulless wrote:But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.

But two marines piloting a floating buggy isn't?

I'm, of course, talking about the Proteus Patter Land Speeder.

Spoiler:

...that would be the kit which is a homage to the original RT Land Speeder design, not what is meant to be the cutting edge of deus ex Cawl's design philosophy?

It's absolutely an homage, I wasn't doubting that.

But that homage and original design is guilty of the same "muh exposed pilots" stuff people are complaining about with this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...If your opinion of the new primaris buggy is that it doesn't look cool, then that in itself is the best qualitative argument you can make against it...

Oh, absolutely. It's got the Spore-esque "strap more guns to vehicle to improve attack power!" quality of most Primaris vehicles coupled with a ludicrous wheel/pilot arrangement that looks like it was made out of lego by a child who knows dune buggies exist but has only heard them described.

And that's why it fits perfectly!

Almost all marine faces look massively constipated. Maybe the primariocart is deliberately set up to shake them all around to get those bowels loose. One of the side effects of the Rubicon Primaris may be with all those extra organs packed in, it's easy for stuff to get stuck...

While no one with a grasp of 40K expects it to be particularly realistic, I do think there's humor to be had by juxtaposing the absurdity and magnitude of the setting against the mundane, and one of the ways to do that is to nitpick at silly design decisions, like how the Storm Speeders seem basically set up to deafen their gunners.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Soulless wrote:But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.

But two marines piloting a floating buggy isn't?

I'm, of course, talking about the Proteus Patter Land Speeder.

Spoiler:

...that would be the kit which is a homage to the original RT Land Speeder design, not what is meant to be the cutting edge of deus ex Cawl's design philosophy?

It's absolutely an homage, I wasn't doubting that.

But that homage and original design is guilty of the same "muh exposed pilots" stuff people are complaining about with this.

A lot more original than the halo buggy, though.

Aesthetics aside, the ATV should be considered in comparison to what it replaces: the attack bike. Compared to that the gunner has more flexibility in aiming if needed, though baseline is similar to attack bike (improved arc to the right).

In the context of the game there is not a huge functional difference between ATV/attack bike/landspeeder/primaris landspeeder, and really game wise just get eradicators, but if imagined in a larger conflict one could see why these vehicles might exist and coexist.

Either/Or wrote:
Aesthetics aside, the ATV should be considered in comparison to what it replaces: the attack bike. Compared to that the gunner has more flexibility in aiming if needed, though baseline is similar to attack bike (improved arc to the right).

In the context of the game there is not a huge functional difference between ATV/attack bike/landspeeder/primaris landspeeder, and really game wise just get eradicators, but if imagined in a larger conflict one could see why these vehicles might exist and coexist.

Oh I think the Primaris Land Speeders are going to be a new category. They're going to be much more expensive than Old Speeders, and put out more firepower and have almost double the wounds and probably can't squadron. The Primaris Speeders will be closer to fast/light tanks (meaning we should have been calling Impulsors Medium? and Gladius Heavy?) than speeders.

Breton wrote:

Either/Or wrote:
Aesthetics aside, the ATV should be considered in comparison to what it replaces: the attack bike. Compared to that the gunner has more flexibility in aiming if needed, though baseline is similar to attack bike (improved arc to the right).

In the context of the game there is not a huge functional difference between ATV/attack bike/landspeeder/primaris landspeeder, and really game wise just get eradicators, but if imagined in a larger conflict one could see why these vehicles might exist and coexist.

Oh I think the Primaris Land Speeders are going to be a new category. They're going to be much more expensive than Old Speeders, and put out more firepower and have almost double the wounds and probably can't squadron. The Primaris Speeders will be closer to fast/light tanks (meaning we should have been calling Impulsors Medium? and Gladius Heavy?) than speeders.

They are 150/170/175 depending on loadout
10 W vs the (current) 6, Toughness 6 vs 5
Definitely can't squadron.
Same speed

The one WarCom showed off (the Hammerstrike, which is anti-armor) is 170 pts
The typhoon with multimelta is 120 pts in the new codex. The Hammerstrike has an extra multimelta shot (it has a multimelta destroyer, which is heavy 3), compared to the typhoon launchers, the hammerstrike missiles are S8, 3AP (rather than 2) and flat Damage 3 rather than d6. Same number of attacks (2), but lacks a frag missile mode. And there is a krakstorm grenade launcher for an extra S6, AP1 d3 damage attack.

But because its W10, the Storm Speeder has a degrading profile, so... yeah.

Basically +50 pts for an extra melta shot, a throwaway S6 shot, toughness bump, 4 wounds but the ability to get worse. Not really sold, personally.

Part of what attracted me to marines is how preposterous everything is. The new vehicles are really showing what I like about the setting. When everyone was saying how ugly and overloaded the Repulsor was when it first came out I was saying "wow, that is hideous. Look at all those guns. I need one." This ATV is checking all my boxes!

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.

Marines have better reflexes, can take more punishment, and have much better skills than your average guardsmen. In an ideal world, where the buggy does not take any incoming fire, is just shooting static targets, and there isn’t a lot going on, sure guard could probably get comparable results.

But zooming across some broken poison hellscape, dodging fire and obstacles, trying to like up the shot on the big bad with one hand while fending off gribbly things clawing at the bumper? That’s why you have Marines running them.

Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense. If we go down that road, none of numbers make sense, everything should just be guard and orbital bombardment, and a host of other flaws in the system show up. Embrace the Rule of Cool.

But he does make sense. A marine vehicle pilot has no problem with flying and operating multipl eweapons, but a guy who drives a buggy can not do it with just one weapon? the second dude shouldn't be needed, but I assume the 2ed dude is there, because the whole design started with the idea of making a primaris attack bikes, and attack bikes had a driver and gunner. It is like in weapon or shield design, you have non boss grip shields with a metal boss slap in the middle of the shield, because the makers can't get over the idea that a shield should have a metal boss in the middle.

....Which is just kind of a dumb argument in general for 40k.

The entire core premise of the setting, on a fundamental level, does not make sense. it approaches nowhere near 'hard sci-fi'. Fundamental to the setting is the idea that there is an entire magic system based on feelings and emotions and you have a society that is structured around the idea that the best way to solve problems militarily is by throwing human bodies at it.

"why does this tank have this wrongbad pattern of rivets!" is pointless. "Thing doesn't look cool" is the only argument that matters in 40k. If your opinion of the new primaris buggy is that it doesn't look cool, then that in itself is the best qualitative argument you can make against it.

"Space marines on tanks is dumb-" no. Space marines is dumb. Using genetic alchemy to strengthen internal organs to make lungs X% more difficult to destroy and hearts Y% more difficult to destroy is fundamentally ridiculous in a setting where marines exist right alongside techpriests who are essentially brains in jars piloting gigantic fighting robots.

You know whose heart is IMPOSSIBLE to destoy? A jarbrain robot. Who doesn't have one. And doesn't need blood.

CEO Kasen wrote:While no one with a grasp of 40K expects it to be particularly realistic, I do think there's humor to be had by juxtaposing the absurdity and magnitude of the setting against the mundane, and one of the ways to do that is to nitpick at silly design decisions, like how the Storm Speeders seem basically set up to deafen their gunners.

It isn't that the Primario Kart, or any other aspect of 40k is "unrealistic." If we wanted realism we'd all be discussing Bolt Action or something instead. But any setting needs believability. Marine organs and techpriests "make sense" within the context of 40k. The Kart, Repulsive, and the like don't.

Whether a mini looks "cool" or not is not necessarily related to the world building of the game.

Nice 666th post.

Marines as vehicle crews, at all, is silly.

You could argue the silliness of it a dozen different ways inside WH40K lore, and a couple thousand different ways using more traditional physics.

But, for a game, it certainly helps solidify differing factions.

Just my $0.0.2 any way.

Peck420 wrote:
Marines as vehicle crews, at all, is silly.

You could argue the silliness of it a dozen different ways inside WH40K lore, and a couple thousand different ways using more traditional physics.

But, for a game, it certainly helps solidify differing factions.

Its definitely the last. A thematic and visual tie-in for the faction, who wouldn't trust 'frail and inferior mortals' with their 'sacred wargear' anyway.

I never got anyone who didn't understand the attack bike.

It's just a German world war two motorcycle sidecar copy.
They were things. They got used. Heavy bolters are just 40k LMGs.

I don't recall Mariokarts in world war two, however.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I don't recall Mariokarts in world war two, however.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/top-10-strangest-armored-cars-of_wwii-x.html
About as close as I can find from WW2. Found quite a few look a likes from the cold war and especially 80's on (armoured buggies, DPV's, etc.)

I struggle to see any actual resemblence between the 40k 'model' under the discussion, and said armoured car.

The armoured car is enclosed for a start, it even has mudguards. Decent fields of fire. Heck, even limited transport capacity.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Marines are strong enough to aim and control gun, your guardsman never manages to hit anything to begin with.

One weapon is a gatling gun, which are rarely known for their pinpoint precision at the best of times. You may have more of a case with the multi-melta option, but given this thing is travelling at speed, and firing at things in the chaos (not Chaos, necessarily) of a battlefield, precisely aimed shots are likely to be a luxury for either crew. Even a Guardsman should be able to comply with "Shoot that tank!", even if they might not manage "Shoot the fourth rivet on the third panel on the left of the turret!" - something the Marine is going to struggle with as well.
.

Reading reviews of their use, the m134 minigun is by all accounts quite easy to use. Its heavy and mounted on something solid, so recoil isn't a problem. The tracer mixed into the feed makes it like a laser you just walk onto the target at 100 rounds per second.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I never got anyone who didn't understand the attack bike.

It's just a German world war two motorcycle sidecar copy.
They were things. They got used. Heavy bolters are just 40k LMGs.

I don't recall Mariokarts in world war two, however.

Attack bikes work for that exact reason.

Blastaar wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.

Marines have better reflexes, can take more punishment, and have much better skills than your average guardsmen. In an ideal world, where the buggy does not take any incoming fire, is just shooting static targets, and there isn’t a lot going on, sure guard could probably get comparable results.

But zooming across some broken poison hellscape, dodging fire and obstacles, trying to like up the shot on the big bad with one hand while fending off gribbly things clawing at the bumper? That’s why you have Marines running them.

Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense. If we go down that road, none of numbers make sense, everything should just be guard and orbital bombardment, and a host of other flaws in the system show up. Embrace the Rule of Cool.

But he does make sense. A marine vehicle pilot has no problem with flying and operating multipl eweapons, but a guy who drives a buggy can not do it with just one weapon? the second dude shouldn't be needed, but I assume the 2ed dude is there, because the whole design started with the idea of making a primaris attack bikes, and attack bikes had a driver and gunner. It is like in weapon or shield design, you have non boss grip shields with a metal boss slap in the middle of the shield, because the makers can't get over the idea that a shield should have a metal boss in the middle.

....Which is just kind of a dumb argument in general for 40k.

The entire core premise of the setting, on a fundamental level, does not make sense. it approaches nowhere near 'hard sci-fi'. Fundamental to the setting is the idea that there is an entire magic system based on feelings and emotions and you have a society that is structured around the idea that the best way to solve problems militarily is by throwing human bodies at it.

"why does this tank have this wrongbad pattern of rivets!" is pointless. "Thing doesn't look cool" is the only argument that matters in 40k. If your opinion of the new primaris buggy is that it doesn't look cool, then that in itself is the best qualitative argument you can make against it.

"Space marines on tanks is dumb-" no. Space marines is dumb. Using genetic alchemy to strengthen internal organs to make lungs X% more difficult to destroy and hearts Y% more difficult to destroy is fundamentally ridiculous in a setting where marines exist right alongside techpriests who are essentially brains in jars piloting gigantic fighting robots.

You know whose heart is IMPOSSIBLE to destoy? A jarbrain robot. Who doesn't have one. And doesn't need blood.

CEO Kasen wrote:While no one with a grasp of 40K expects it to be particularly realistic, I do think there's humor to be had by juxtaposing the absurdity and magnitude of the setting against the mundane, and one of the ways to do that is to nitpick at silly design decisions, like how the Storm Speeders seem basically set up to deafen their gunners.

It isn't that the Primario Kart, or any other aspect of 40k is "unrealistic." If we wanted realism we'd all be discussing Bolt Action or something instead. But any setting needs believability. Marine organs and techpriests "make sense" within the context of 40k. The Kart, Repulsive, and the like don't.

Whether a mini looks "cool" or not is not necessarily related to the world building of the game.

This probably describes much better than I could the point Im trying to make!
While the entire setting is unrealistic and unbelievable, things in it often ”make sense” to its own setting.

Marines being tasked as drivers, weapon operators etc is within the setting an insane waste of their potential and even within this space fantasy setting it doesnt make any sense.

The fact that the model is ugly and not very well thought out is a different thing entirely, i can deal with that and in any case its subjective.


I liken the marines with the mobile infantry from Starship Troopers (the book) where every individual is an army in itself, most efficient on foot and not mounted. You wouldnt sacrifice one of them drive a car. Possibly for transport outside of combat but not in an actual fight.

Only TRUE MARINE could sit right under the smouldering, smoking cannons and still have hearing!

Problem solved. Carry on citizens.

The Starship Troopers "marines" were vastly more capable, especially in the mobility category. 40k marines still need vehicles for mobility and fire support, especially mobile fire support.

And there are logistical advantages with vehicles being crewed by marines. If the driver/gunner are comprimised, another marine can swap in at any point. If the vehicle is destroyed you still have a trooper who is a force to be reckoned with, and who self heals, go without sleep, eat the local flora/fauna for sustinence and all that.

Also there is flexibility. Need a landspeeder squadron for one mission, a bike squadron for the one after, and an assault squad for the one after that; well we know what 7th squad is doing. And if you need more support that is what the reserve companies are for.