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 skchsan wrote:
You mean 'Armorbane' and 'Fleshbane'?

The way I see it, the four battle sizes are reflection of what happens in a game of SC.

The first 4 minutes is rush timing, which is the combat patrol.
The middle 5~12 minutes is when the early techs come out & start contesting for each others expansions = incursion. This is the timing when the MMM's, immortal rushes, roach spam comes out.
The top 12~22 minutes is when you're fully tech'ed, but not max food yet - you've secured 3~4 expansions and trying to take = strike force. You have critical mass for at least one component of your army while the other is getting built. You more or less have covered both air, ground & seige components.
Past the 25~30 minute mark you're in the late game, when you begin to max out on your food and fighitng with maxed out food = onslaught. This is when you start seeing a fleet of battle cruisers, carriers & 70% of map covered in creep.

Having said, you know what you need to bring (like when you scout your enemy's base) by reading on the meta/rulebooks - see what's strong, guess what your opponent is bringing, consider your opponent's playstyle, etc. When you begin setting up at the table, this is like when the fog of war lifts and you see your opponents' entire army.

So in a sense, you CAN bring a counter list.

While true we aren't reacting in real time like what happens in SC. We are reacting to what we expect to be there. But mainly the weapon types approach makes it so weapons that aren't intended to do damage vs tanks but have a high damage profile/potential damage vs bioligical only does 10% damage to mechanical (or something).

Armor bane and fleshbane is another great way to do this. Weapons str is 4. But it wounds tanks on a 2+. That kind of stuff.

sanguine40k wrote:
So, another option would be to repurpose a rule we already have seen - instead of 'treat weapons with AP values of -1 or -2 as 0' we could go with 'treat weapons with a damage value of D2 as D1' and give that to heavy vehicles (tanks, etc) but not light vehicles (speeders, APC's, buggies, etc).

Then you have:

D1 weapons - for killing light/medium infantry (W1 models, etc).
D2 weapons - for killing Heavy infantry/light vehicles (W2-6 models, in general plus bikes/speeders, etc)
Dd3+ weapons - dedicated anti-tank weapons (and generally inefficient for killing the other 2 categories)

And before anyone brings up weapon X (totes anti-tank, but is only D2) or weapon Y (totes not, but does Dd3, etc) - as we have seen, weapon stats can be tweaked in FAQ'S.

I don't know, I still like the keyword-feeds-USR system. At that point you can also break your own rules when a unique weapon should get something different/special/unique as a reward/drawback by giving it or not giving it the appropriate keyword to trigger the USR. It also gives you more fine control - for example the autocannon I mentioned. Using Keyword-into-USR could give it a niche it desperately needs both as man portable and in a Pred/LR turret etc. Beyond that, most of the tank turret weapons should get a dual purpose keyword/USR while most of the man portable anti-tank should lose some accuracy against smaller than tank targets via keyword into USR. The point being to prevent any boost to a weapon in one category becoming adept in the other category through "collateral damage" from the change. Generally speaking - with some exceptions - a man portable (i.e. a thing carried by a Dev, a Heavy Weapon Team, an Eldar Support Platform etc) heavy weapon - with a single statline - should be good at anti infantry or antivehicle but not both. The mutti-statline things like Krak/Frag or Sun/Star missiles etc. should have the appropriate keyword on the matching statline. A very few - like AutoCannons, potentially Assault Cannons, the Xenos corollaries etc. might get both/neither/third keywords to be truly dual purpose. I say that because some of those middle/straddle weapons are in tank turrets or aircraft and might need it to keep being their main gun, plus some of them like Autocannon need some sort of a boost.


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SemperMortis wrote:


MY Gorkanaut is 340pts and T8 Can i get that 2+ save and become a LOW as well?

Assuming it doesn't have some sort of special rule(s) you're obfuscating, then sure. The point is to fix vehicles because they're pretty much bad no matter which faction is taking them.

There are some basic flaws that cross factions.

Transports are / Transporting is - bad because in addition to the points cost of a transport that is probably too high to begin with, it usually adds an opportunity cost of 20% or more of the unit being transported.

Most vehicles are either over-priced, under-durable or both.

Most vehicles are too vulnerable to too many things - meaning we went from taking FOR EXAMPLE an Anti-Tank Dev Squad with 4 MM, and an Anti Personnel Dev Squad with 4 HB to two Multi Purpose Dev Squads with 4 GC+A each. Now in a way, that's TAC, but in practice its more Skew.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Orks are the only massed light infantry army performing well right now. Guard and Tau are really bad and Tyranids aren't doing particularly hot either. Combining the pressures of the edition with the actual numerical performance expectations of the units, I think Boyz are good at 8 points compared to 5 point Guardsmen.
It's the fire warriors, termigaunts, and hormagaunts that need to come down. Boyz and Infantry can go up, but if they go up they'll become nonviable or even less viable against the armies that aren't light massed infantry [read, Marines].

Nah, orks horde do well only in a single built, the goff greentide. And they do not because boyz are good but because in that built they get +1S, +1A, exploding 6s and re-roll 1s in combat. If Ghaz gets nerfed the entire built disappears, because boyz don't worth 8 points. They were 6ppm when a single pk in them could wreck a tank and they were considered meh or decent at most at that time, now they're certainly worse.

I haven't seen an ork list with lots of boyz doing good without Ghaz. And that goff greentide is a skew anti meta list. Tailor against orks or bring full TAC lists and their winning rate drops dramatically, keep tailoring against marines and they'll get good results.

Most of the ork players just bring the bare minimum in boyz or even gretchins to be legal and avoid losing too many CPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


Most vehicles are either over-priced, under-durable or both.

Most vehicles are too vulnerable to too many things - meaning we went from taking FOR EXAMPLE an Anti-Tank Dev Squad with 4 MM, and an Anti Personnel Dev Squad with 4 HB to two Multi Purpose Dev Squads with 4 GC+A each. Now in a way, that's TAC, but in practice its more Skew.

It's true in a meta that is marines heavy. Outside marines vehicles are not that squishy. Everytime I play against non marines factions an ork vehicle based list is by far more durable than a boyz based one. My SW land raider wasn't always killed in 8th after a single turn of shooting, typically soaked heavy firepower for 2-3 turns, as I never played SW vs imperium.

So again, marines are the problem that should be fixed.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Orks are the only massed light infantry army performing well right now. Guard and Tau are really bad and Tyranids aren't doing particularly hot either. Combining the pressures of the edition with the actual numerical performance expectations of the units, I think Boyz are good at 8 points compared to 5 point Guardsmen.
It's the fire warriors, termigaunts, and hormagaunts that need to come down. Boyz and Infantry can go up, but if they go up they'll become nonviable or even less viable against the armies that aren't light massed infantry [read, Marines].

Instead of getting cheaper they should get better. Especially Hormaguants should get better. They need the chainsword treatment applied to their scything claws. At least the +1A part. Guard are suffering from the same things that made people soup them last edition. They need a FOC rebuild, and probably some laspistol chainsword troops as a new unit. Tau. I don't know what to do with Tau, I think they're just up a creek. They probably need a some of their old jetpack shenanigans brought back but in a far more controlled way. Being able to shoot someone off the objective then jetpack on it in the assault phase, so they too have a way to get on the objective before their next command phase but not to be able to walk out, shoot, jetpack back behind cover out of sight Maybe they only get to Jetpack on someone else's assault phase. Or in the command phase before scoring. That would be entertaining.

 Blackie wrote:


So again, marines are the problem that should be fixed.

Who could have predicted this?

So, what are the chances that the new Smoke Screen strategem loyalists got that gives vehicles with smoke launchers -1 to be hit will be given to vehicles in other codexes and other books with smoke launchers? I can definitely think of some vehicles in my army that I would love to use it on.

Gadzilla wrote:So, what are the chances that the new Smoke Screen strategem loyalists got that gives vehicles with smoke launchers -1 to be hit will be given to vehicles in other codexes and other books with smoke launchers? I can definitely think of some vehicles in my army that I would love to use it on.

I really, REALLY think that any -1 to hit rules are nearly useless in 9th. Instead of making your opponent choices harder, you're allowing him to move any heavy infantry or advance wherever possible without further risk. The same goes for deep cover, obviously.

Maybe it's situationally useful (and I agree a lot of other armies will need it), but I feel it's something that you won't use nearly as much as you would have done in 8th.

 Cybtroll wrote:

Gadzilla wrote:So, what are the chances that the new Smoke Screen strategem loyalists got that gives vehicles with smoke launchers -1 to be hit will be given to vehicles in other codexes and other books with smoke launchers? I can definitely think of some vehicles in my army that I would love to use it on.

I really, REALLY think that any -1 to hit rules are nearly useless in 9th. Instead of making your opponent choices harder, you're allowing him to move any heavy infantry or advance wherever possible without further risk. The same goes for deep cover, obviously.

Maybe it's situationally useful (and I agree a lot of other armies will need it), but I feel it's something that you won't use nearly as much as you would have done in 8th.

Stacking -1 to hit was too much before, but GW - as usual - overcorrected. It should have been capped at -1 per originating player i.e. your opponent can generate up to -1, and you can generate up to -1, if you both do you're capped at -2. That way if you decided to do something penalizing against a unit that was already penalizing, you actually suffer said penalty.

Agree. My Venoms are inviting heavy infantry to move and shoot them.
Theres a huge difference between no cap at all and just -1.

Breton wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:

Gadzilla wrote:So, what are the chances that the new Smoke Screen strategem loyalists got that gives vehicles with smoke launchers -1 to be hit will be given to vehicles in other codexes and other books with smoke launchers? I can definitely think of some vehicles in my army that I would love to use it on.

I really, REALLY think that any -1 to hit rules are nearly useless in 9th. Instead of making your opponent choices harder, you're allowing him to move any heavy infantry or advance wherever possible without further risk. The same goes for deep cover, obviously.

Maybe it's situationally useful (and I agree a lot of other armies will need it), but I feel it's something that you won't use nearly as much as you would have done in 8th.

Stacking -1 to hit was too much before, but GW - as usual - overcorrected. It should have been capped at -1 per originating player i.e. your opponent can generate up to -1, and you can generate up to -1, if you both do you're capped at -2. That way if you decided to do something penalizing against a unit that was already penalizing, you actually suffer said penalty.

Nah it should have just been a flat cap at can't be modified to worse than a 5+, outside of thibgs like the calexus's only hit on a 6 roll.

Rolling 50-100 dice fishing for 6's is a complete waste of time but is what it is.

A more sensible way would have been to have Nth categories to apply, and the final cap would have been is "-1 x N".
For example, if you want to have a modifier caused by enemy, one caused by the player, one caused by the battlefield... the cap is -3).

But to be honest it's not even surprising anymore. Also D&D (5th edition) have the exact same issue with the concept of advantage/disadvantage.

Sometimes, in order to pursue simplicity, you get dullness.

Ice_can wrote:Rolling 50-100 dice fishing for 6's is a complete waste of time but is what it is.

To be honest I think the "to Hit" roll is redundant. It was even in 8th, but there where still modifiers. Now, with a cap at -1, I don't even see the utility of rollling 6 attack at 2+ or 30 at 5+ instead of directly causing 5 and 10 hits.
I mean, the number of attacks and dice is already so out of control that, regarding the hit roll, we're already at an almost perfect statistical average.

Anyway, in regard to the initial post and the main topic, I'm not so sure the large vehicle can be already dead.
I am personally planning to bring an Imperial Knight + Deathwing army when the local scene will come back.
It's an army based on forced target priorities to the opponent, waste of anti-infantry and resilience in the late game (and, following the supposed new meta where vehicles are a weakness, it hasn't any ranged threat toward tanks). Imperial Knight will bring the ObSec (if I remember correctly you can ahve 2 or 3 Obsec Knight with minimal trade-off). Deathwing will bring bodies, anti-infantry and staying power.

As soon as I can get a game, I'll let you know how it goes.

 Cybtroll wrote:
A more sensible way would have been to have Nth categories to apply, and the final cap would have been is "-1 x N".
For example, if you want to have a modifier caused by enemy, one caused by the player, one caused by the battlefield... the cap is -3).

But to be honest it's not even surprising anymore. Also D&D (5th edition) have the exact same issue with the concept of advantage/disadvantage.

Sometimes, in order to pursue simplicity, you get dullness.

Except with -3 you have stripped out 3 of the 5 pass values on a D6.

Negative modifiers penalise those with worse BS more than those with High BS. -2 is a 50% reduction in 3+BS (ignorine Rerolls for now) its 66% for 4+BS and 100% for 5+BS and 6+BS.

On a D10+it's not so bad as its a much smaller swing but on a D6 it's too big an impact.

You seem to have missed the point.

The point is about design philosophy: instead of either "everything stacks" or "nothing stacks"; the sensible approach would have been "something stacks, but something doesn't".

Stacking -1s was awful for the game and I think its a great thing that its no longer possible. I think the cap of -1 is fine.

I also really feel this concern of "but the heavy weapons can just run round a corner and shoot my -1 to hit stuff without penalty" is rooted in theory, rather than caring much about what happens on the table. Encouraging movement is always better for the game than encouraging castling up.

 Cybtroll wrote:
You seem to have missed the point.

The point is about design philosophy: instead of either "everything stacks" or "nothing stacks"; the sensible approach would have been "something stacks, but something doesn't".

No you missed the point GW has a design philosophy nothing stacks and in the wider context of a D6 based game it's the far better option.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Orks are the only massed light infantry army performing well right now. Guard and Tau are really bad and Tyranids aren't doing particularly hot either. Combining the pressures of the edition with the actual numerical performance expectations of the units, I think Boyz are good at 8 points compared to 5 point Guardsmen.
It's the fire warriors, termigaunts, and hormagaunts that need to come down. Boyz and Infantry can go up, but if they go up they'll become nonviable or even less viable against the armies that aren't light massed infantry [read, Marines].

The only reason that Ork boyz are doing ok right now is because of the meta of the game currently. More players are bringing D2+ weapons to deal with Primaris, new tacs and of course Gravis Marines. In order to do so they are bringing fewer horde clearing weapons, relying on blast to shore up their weakness there, and the fact is, the new blast rule only increases average # of shots by 2.5 per weapon.

Every faction in the game right now has plenty of tools in their kit boxes to eradicate an Ork boyz horde, but they don't bring them because Orkz make up a much smaller % of the game than space marines. You are significantly more likely to go 5 for 5 against some flavor of marines in a tournament than you are to face even 1 ork list. So tournament players aren't building a tac list with that mindset.

As an example, the Fantasia Fanatic XXXVIII tournament winner won with 16 gravis models. 6 Eradicators, 6 Aggressors and 4 Inceptors. 2nd place at 17 Gravis models.

To put this in context, even if you buff the Goff boyz to be S5 with pre-game strats it takes 27 attacks to kill 1 Gravis model on average. Each goff boy gets 4 attacks if he is in a buffed mob (20+ models). So roughly 6-7 boyz to kill 1 gravis model. At most you are going to get 15ish boyz into CC against a squad of Gravis unless they are very close when you charge or you roll box cars. Ghaz is decent against SM's since they generally can't do much to him except in the shooting phase, so long as he keeps a painboy nearby with his medisquig ghaz should be able to survive for a few turns. Ironically, SM's are probably one of his best match ups.

If you take regular boyz instead of goff it actually takes them closer to 41 attacks to kill 1 gravis model, which is 10-11 boyz in a buffed mob OR 14 boyz in a smaller mob

So best case scenario, in CC goff boyz are taking between 48-56pts to kill 1 model in their best phase, at worst its 112pts worth of boyz to kill 1 Gravis model, not exactly a stellar performance by Ork boyz in the new meta. All this does is highlight that ork boyz are not in a good place, they just happen to be the skew anti-meta list that wins because instead of facing a line of aggressors they are facing eradicators, and luckily for Orkz, we can overwhelm Eradicators with numbers.

 Cybtroll wrote:

Gadzilla wrote:So, what are the chances that the new Smoke Screen strategem loyalists got that gives vehicles with smoke launchers -1 to be hit will be given to vehicles in other codexes and other books with smoke launchers? I can definitely think of some vehicles in my army that I would love to use it on.

I really, REALLY think that any -1 to hit rules are nearly useless in 9th. Instead of making your opponent choices harder, you're allowing him to move any heavy infantry or advance wherever possible without further risk. The same goes for deep cover, obviously.

Maybe it's situationally useful (and I agree a lot of other armies will need it), but I feel it's something that you won't use nearly as much as you would have done in 8th.

Unless I'm mistaken, the strategem is reactionary, IE., you choose to use it after your unit is targeted in the shooting phase. That means your opponent has already chosen to move that heavy weapons squad or not, or advance that assault weapon squad or not (which probably won't happen with eradicators because they would lose their double tap). That means it wouldn't be wasted. You're also ignoring weapons that don't make that choice, like rapid fire plasma or vehicles with heavy weapons. Dense cover isn't an issue either for me as neither of the vehicles that I'm hoping this will apply to can benefit from it due to the wound cap on dense cover.

Edit: Never mind. From all the reviews I've seen, it looks like the strategem is only available to primaris vehicles. So if gw won't let loyalist Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicators use it, there's no chance they'll give something similar to smoke launcher equipped vehicles in other codexes. Really gw? You couldn't give this to the Classic Marines vehicles? Couldn't help them that one little bit?

SemperMortis wrote:
The only reason that Ork boyz are doing ok right now is because of the meta of the game currently. More players are bringing D2+ weapons to deal with Primaris, new tacs and of course Gravis Marines. In order to do so they are bringing fewer horde clearing weapons, relying on blast to shore up their weakness there, and the fact is, the new blast rule only increases average # of shots by 2.5 per weapon.

Every faction in the game right now has plenty of tools in their kit boxes to eradicate an Ork boyz horde, but they don't bring them because Orkz make up a much smaller % of the game than space marines. You are significantly more likely to go 5 for 5 against some flavor of marines in a tournament than you are to face even 1 ork list. So tournament players aren't building a tac list with that mindset.

As an example, the Fantasia Fanatic XXXVIII tournament winner won with 16 gravis models. 6 Eradicators, 6 Aggressors and 4 Inceptors. 2nd place at 17 Gravis models.

To put this in context, even if you buff the Goff boyz to be S5 with pre-game strats it takes 27 attacks to kill 1 Gravis model on average. Each goff boy gets 4 attacks if he is in a buffed mob (20+ models). So roughly 6-7 boyz to kill 1 gravis model. At most you are going to get 15ish boyz into CC against a squad of Gravis unless they are very close when you charge or you roll box cars. Ghaz is decent against SM's since they generally can't do much to him except in the shooting phase, so long as he keeps a painboy nearby with his medisquig ghaz should be able to survive for a few turns. Ironically, SM's are probably one of his best match ups.

If you take regular boyz instead of goff it actually takes them closer to 41 attacks to kill 1 gravis model, which is 10-11 boyz in a buffed mob OR 14 boyz in a smaller mob

So best case scenario, in CC goff boyz are taking between 48-56pts to kill 1 model in their best phase, at worst its 112pts worth of boyz to kill 1 Gravis model, not exactly a stellar performance by Ork boyz in the new meta. All this does is highlight that ork boyz are not in a good place, they just happen to be the skew anti-meta list that wins because instead of facing a line of aggressors they are facing eradicators, and luckily for Orkz, we can overwhelm Eradicators with numbers.

While non of the math you present is wrong, Ork boys don't need to be super killy to be valuable. It is good enough to have more obsec bodies on an objective than the enemy. Marines usually run 3 or 5 man squads nowadays, so you can't contest until you basically cleared the whole Boyz squad off of it.

Yes, because nothing says "WAAAAGGGHHHH!!!" better than sitting on an objective and dieing as slowly as possible.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: Never mind. From all the reviews I've seen, it looks like the strategem is only available to primaris vehicles. So if gw won't let loyalist Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicators use it, there's no chance they'll give something similar to smoke launcher equipped vehicles in other codexes. Really gw? You couldn't give this to the Classic Marines vehicles? Couldn't help them that one little bit?

Looks like the Smoke Screen strat is available to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units with the SMOKESCREEN keyword.

Whoever said it was Primaris-only is talking out their rear end, Gadzilla - looking at proper Marine vehicles, all the Dreads have smokescreen, as do all the Rhino and Land Raider chassis vehicles I could see. Neither Land Raiders or the flyers get it, but that's not really a shock.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: Never mind. From all the reviews I've seen, it looks like the strategem is only available to primaris vehicles. So if gw won't let loyalist Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicators use it, there's no chance they'll give something similar to smoke launcher equipped vehicles in other codexes. Really gw? You couldn't give this to the Classic Marines vehicles? Couldn't help them that one little bit?

Looks like the Smoke Screen strat is available to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units with the SMOKESCREEN keyword.

Whoever said it was Primaris-only is talking out their rear end, Gadzilla - looking at proper Marine vehicles, all the Dreads have smokescreen, as do all the Rhino and Land Raider chassis vehicles I could see. Neither Land Raiders or the flyers get it, but that's not really a shock.

I'm going to guess this is what happened the first time too, a "Freudian" slip with Land RAIDERS and Land SPEEDERS.

...it's nearly 11am here, and I suspect I need to go back to bed.

Yes, Land Raiders have it, Land Speeders don't.

Certain units seem to have the keyword as well, but they weren't under discussion here.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: Never mind. From all the reviews I've seen, it looks like the strategem is only available to primaris vehicles. So if gw won't let loyalist Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicators use it, there's no chance they'll give something similar to smoke launcher equipped vehicles in other codexes. Really gw? You couldn't give this to the Classic Marines vehicles? Couldn't help them that one little bit?

Looks like the Smoke Screen strat is available to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units with the SMOKESCREEN keyword.

Whoever said it was Primaris-only is talking out their rear end, Gadzilla - looking at proper Marine vehicles, all the Dreads have smokescreen, as do all the Rhino and Land Raider chassis vehicles I could see. Neither Land Raiders or the flyers get it, but that's not really a shock.

You mean land speeders don't get it, right? So anything with a smoke launcher gets it? So it's possible that once the Imperial Armour Compendium and the new csm codex are both out I can basically give In Midnight Clad to my vehicles? Including my Fellblade and Achilles? Thanks Dysartes, you just made my day.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: Never mind. From all the reviews I've seen, it looks like the strategem is only available to primaris vehicles. So if gw won't let loyalist Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicators use it, there's no chance they'll give something similar to smoke launcher equipped vehicles in other codexes. Really gw? You couldn't give this to the Classic Marines vehicles? Couldn't help them that one little bit?

Looks like the Smoke Screen strat is available to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units with the SMOKESCREEN keyword.

Whoever said it was Primaris-only is talking out their rear end, Gadzilla - looking at proper Marine vehicles, all the Dreads have smokescreen, as do all the Rhino and Land Raider chassis vehicles I could see. Neither Land Raiders or the flyers get it, but that's not really a shock.

You mean land speeders don't get it, right? So anything with a smoke launcher gets it? So it's possible that once the Imperial Armour Compendium and the new csm codex are both out I can basically give In Midnight Clad to my vehicles? Including my Fellblade and Achilles? Thanks Dysartes, you just made my day.

I would take nothing for granted until the Death Guard book comes out (unless the FW one comes out first).

The important bit to take from this, though, is that it isn't Primaris-only In fact, the Impulsive doesn't get it, though Gladiator/Repulsive vehicles can do, if they take (or don't replace) their Auto Launchers, but it doesn't automatically crop up in the Keyword field. Which I can see being a little problematic if people just skim for what is allowed to use it.

 Dysartes wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: Never mind. From all the reviews I've seen, it looks like the strategem is only available to primaris vehicles. So if gw won't let loyalist Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, or Vindicators use it, there's no chance they'll give something similar to smoke launcher equipped vehicles in other codexes. Really gw? You couldn't give this to the Classic Marines vehicles? Couldn't help them that one little bit?

Looks like the Smoke Screen strat is available to ADEPTUS ASTARTES units with the SMOKESCREEN keyword.

Whoever said it was Primaris-only is talking out their rear end, Gadzilla - looking at proper Marine vehicles, all the Dreads have smokescreen, as do all the Rhino and Land Raider chassis vehicles I could see. Neither Land Raiders or the flyers get it, but that's not really a shock.

You mean land speeders don't get it, right? So anything with a smoke launcher gets it? So it's possible that once the Imperial Armour Compendium and the new csm codex are both out I can basically give In Midnight Clad to my vehicles? Including my Fellblade and Achilles? Thanks Dysartes, you just made my day.

I would take nothing for granted until the Death Guard book comes out (unless the FW one comes out first).

The important bit to take from this, though, is that it isn't Primaris-only In fact, the Impulsive doesn't get it, though Gladiator/Repulsive vehicles can do, if they take (or don't replace) their Auto Launchers, but it doesn't automatically crop up in the Keyword field. Which I can see being a little problematic if people just skim for what is allowed to use it.

True, that's why I said it was possible, I take nothing for granted with gw. Guess I shouldn't put to much stock in reviewers, especially when their coverage of Predators and Land Raiders is basically "nothing to see here". All of them just mentioned the grav tanks and the two sneaky troops for the strategem. Now I have hope I won't have to have that Dark Apostle trailing along behind my Fellblade anymore, he never looked right in a Night Lords army.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yes, because nothing says "WAAAAGGGHHHH!!!" better than sitting on an objective and dieing as slowly as possible.

The discussed point was not about wether Orks play enough like in the lore. What are you getting at?

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yes, because nothing says "WAAAAGGGHHHH!!!" better than sitting on an objective and dieing as slowly as possible.

The discussed point was not about wether Orks play enough like in the lore. What are you getting at?

Exactly that. Most people choose their factions based on their lore, and want them to play accordingly. If the only way to win is to play against the playstyle you chose the army for, what's the point of playing that faction? Orks should be able to win by playing like Orks, and sitting on objectives and dieing as slowly as possible isn't very orky. If it's important for "space marines to feel like space marines", then it's important for Orks to feel like Orks. Sorry if that wasn't the "discussed point", but you're already comparing infantry units in a thread about vehicles.

a_typical_hero wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The only reason that Ork boyz are doing ok right now is because of the meta of the game currently. More players are bringing D2+ weapons to deal with Primaris, new tacs and of course Gravis Marines. In order to do so they are bringing fewer horde clearing weapons, relying on blast to shore up their weakness there, and the fact is, the new blast rule only increases average # of shots by 2.5 per weapon.

Every faction in the game right now has plenty of tools in their kit boxes to eradicate an Ork boyz horde, but they don't bring them because Orkz make up a much smaller % of the game than space marines. You are significantly more likely to go 5 for 5 against some flavor of marines in a tournament than you are to face even 1 ork list. So tournament players aren't building a tac list with that mindset.

As an example, the Fantasia Fanatic XXXVIII tournament winner won with 16 gravis models. 6 Eradicators, 6 Aggressors and 4 Inceptors. 2nd place at 17 Gravis models.

To put this in context, even if you buff the Goff boyz to be S5 with pre-game strats it takes 27 attacks to kill 1 Gravis model on average. Each goff boy gets 4 attacks if he is in a buffed mob (20+ models). So roughly 6-7 boyz to kill 1 gravis model. At most you are going to get 15ish boyz into CC against a squad of Gravis unless they are very close when you charge or you roll box cars. Ghaz is decent against SM's since they generally can't do much to him except in the shooting phase, so long as he keeps a painboy nearby with his medisquig ghaz should be able to survive for a few turns. Ironically, SM's are probably one of his best match ups.

If you take regular boyz instead of goff it actually takes them closer to 41 attacks to kill 1 gravis model, which is 10-11 boyz in a buffed mob OR 14 boyz in a smaller mob

So best case scenario, in CC goff boyz are taking between 48-56pts to kill 1 model in their best phase, at worst its 112pts worth of boyz to kill 1 Gravis model, not exactly a stellar performance by Ork boyz in the new meta. All this does is highlight that ork boyz are not in a good place, they just happen to be the skew anti-meta list that wins because instead of facing a line of aggressors they are facing eradicators, and luckily for Orkz, we can overwhelm Eradicators with numbers.

While non of the math you present is wrong, Ork boys don't need to be super killy to be valuable. It is good enough to have more obsec bodies on an objective than the enemy. Marines usually run 3 or 5 man squads nowadays, so you can't contest until you basically cleared the whole Boyz squad off of it.

Which translates to: Orkz are counter meta.

Everyone is bringing super elite forces to kill other super elite forces. The fact that 2W infantry is a norm and 3W is common says a lot about the current game. The go to choice for SM troops is Intercessors with -1AP rifles. Why? Because they want to be able to plink some wounds of 3+ save models. Against my ork boyz? Who cares? 90% of the time they don't get an armor save anyway, or if they do its from the KFF.

Amazing you shot 10 plasma shots at my ork boyz! your 200pt unit managed to overkill 4 Ork boyz. etc.

Orkz are literally doing well as a horde faction because nobody is building a list with the intent of fighting against 120 OBSEC infantry models. Any SM list can obliterate 120 ork boyz...in 1 turn, if they build a list to do so. But those same SM players at tournaments aren't as worried about facing an Ork horde list as they are about facing an Elite SM/Custodes list. Hence, they build to beat High toughness, multi wound models with good saves.

SemperMortis wrote:


Orkz are literally doing well as a horde faction because nobody is building a list with the intent of fighting against 120 OBSEC infantry models. Any SM list can obliterate 120 ork boyz...in 1 turn, if they build a list to do so. But those same SM players at tournaments aren't as worried about facing an Ork horde list as they are about facing an Elite SM/Custodes list. Hence, they build to beat High toughness, multi wound models with good saves.

That's what lots of players can't get or purposefully ignore. No ork horde would be really competitive if tournament players start bringing real TAC lists, not just tailored against elite armies, let alone pure anti horde lists.

SemperMortis wrote:


Which translates to: Orkz are counter meta.

Everyone is bringing super elite forces to kill other super elite forces. The fact that 2W infantry is a norm and 3W is common says a lot about the current game. The go to choice for SM troops is Intercessors with -1AP rifles. Why?

Because those are the ones we glued on when we first got them before Assault Bolters were improved? And I'm not sure they're still the Go-To now that Tacs have 2W. If they are, its probably not the -1 Bolter, it's the +1(or more for assault Intercessors)A. That's going to be the interesting thing to watch shake out. If Tacs are X, Assault Intercessors are X+ a little, and Intercessors are X+a little more, its going to be interesting to see how many of how many are taken once people start giving it thought.

With 10 Tacs (before upgrades) at X vs 10 Infiltrators (before Upgrades) at X+ 85% of a Drop Pod, that should also be interesting.

Because they want to be able to plink some wounds of 3+ save models. Against my ork boyz? Who cares? 90% of the time they don't get an armor save anyway, or if they do its from the KFF.

Amazing you shot 10 plasma shots at my ork boyz! your 200pt unit managed to overkill 4 Ork boyz. etc.

Orkz are literally doing well as a horde faction because nobody is building a list with the intent of fighting against 120 OBSEC infantry models. Any SM list can obliterate 120 ork boyz...in 1 turn, if they build a list to do so. But those same SM players at tournaments aren't as worried about facing an Ork horde list as they are about facing an Elite SM/Custodes list. Hence, they build to beat High toughness, multi wound models with good saves.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yes, because nothing says "WAAAAGGGHHHH!!!" better than sitting on an objective and dieing as slowly as possible.

The discussed point was not about wether Orks play enough like in the lore. What are you getting at?

Exactly that. Most people choose their factions based on their lore, and want them to play accordingly. If the only way to win is to play against the playstyle you chose the army for, what's the point of playing that faction? Orks should be able to win by playing like Orks, and sitting on objectives and dieing as slowly as possible isn't very orky. If it's important for "space marines to feel like space marines", then it's important for Orks to feel like Orks. Sorry if that wasn't the "discussed point", but you're already comparing infantry units in a thread about vehicles.

You're preaching to the choir here. I think DA should be able to do DW only, RW only, DW + RW, I think White Scars should be able to do significant Bikers, I think Saim-Hann should be able to do Wild Riders and on and on. Now sitting on an Objective is kind of Orky, and there's no way around it in the game right now anyway. I suppose the problem is we're not getting fluffy explanations for what they're DOING on the objective. Orks might be looting food, teeth, and whatever else. Space Marines and Guard might be searching for Intel, Eldar might be meditating for insight or what have you. Nids might be having dinner. Tau are making propaganda posters. The Emperor's Children are doing things we can't speak of on a public forum. That kind of thing.

The Dark Imperium Intercessors and other sources of monopose and easy to build Intercessors all come with the rapid fire bolter. Most of the intercessors I have seen at tournaments have been those and would explain why so many use them.

I only have the intercessors from the intercessor box so I never glued the scope/mag and just use something similar to bluetack to keep it on. Already a tight fit so they wont fall off. Right now they are all carrying the assault version but I have a little box with the rapidfire parts from before the point changes. If I decide to use the heavy/stalker versions one day I would only need about 2 hours to clean, undercoat, paint, varnish and replace 20 rifles.

Havent seen anyone else in person actually bother with this so could explain why you see the rapidfire version more often in tournament lists with strict wysiwyg even if they would have prefered the assault version. Think this have more to do with it than an meta choice against marines. Not that much of a difference and most people are too lazy to buy and paint up 5-10 more intercessors for such a tiny advantage. An advantage so small you probably wouldnt even notice it even over a whole tournament.