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Two or even three C'tan would die against good shooting armies at the same rate as one would. Their durability comes from only being able to take 3 wounds per phase but if you have multiple, they all take 3 wounds each shooting phase

So I'm not sure if more than one is viable

Full shooting armies couldn’t even deal with 1 c’tan though. The only way to kill them is in multiple phases. Can you smite enough to put 3 wounds on multiple c’tans in each psychic phase, can you go toe to toe with more than 1 in combat and still do your missions?

Cauthon wrote:
Full shooting armies couldn’t even deal with 1 c’tan though. The only way to kill them is in multiple phases. Can you smite enough to put 3 wounds on multiple c’tans in each psychic phase, can you go toe to toe with more than 1 in combat and still do your missions?

The durability is not the issue its the offense. You may be overestimating the c'tan, take the Nightbringer for example. With six attacks you will roll one's for either to hit or to wound which drastically reduces its damage out put. Than you have to roll another d6 for damage where you might only do 1 damage! Every time you roll a one with a Nightbringer in cc it hurts. Now imagine if you are a Voiddragon or Deceiver who wounds on 3's instead of 2's and need entropic strike to ignore invulnerable saves. With that being said they are amazing units but when you actually roll the dice they only kill 2-4 models in cc a turn.

A list based around doing mortal wounds with 2 C'tan has potential.

While having a list of two or even three c'tan sounds super fun and look intimidating bringing even just two is 540 for just the T.ctan let alone the named ones. Then gotta take into account of the detachment tax of hank and troops which is gonna be another 155 for smallest amount per detachment. So 850 if playing 2k points you now have 1150 left which might be enough for something solid since you have troops taken care of.

My thoughts would be to take deceiver and set up both shards in reserves to avoid any wound loss turn 1 then have them come from the sides turn two much closer to the enemy.

Or take double t.c'tan for power spamming mws.

C'tan are super underwhelming offensively for their cost. 350 points for example buys you 10 chaos terminators that put out 20 S8 -3 D2 plasma shots, which you can double to 40 for 2CP, with deep strike, that can then charge in for 31 S5 AP1 D1 attacks, with the unit getting legion benefits, being able to vets for +1 to wound in either phase, can benefit from some fanstastically powerful legion stratagems, can get prescience, warptime, delightful agonies, etc etc...and that's not even a unit that's recognized as being particularly overpowered.

Nightbringer is the only one who's even passably good at killing stuff for his points cost, and he's only actually good at killing stuff with good invulns or FNPs.

You take one C'tan or none IMO, it's gimping your army offensively far too much to take more than one.

You have to factor in mortal wounds when you talk about c'tan's offense.

If your opponent has that powerful of a unit in reserve then you have to screen properly, also that many plasma shots mean some would die from the get hot rule. Yukishiro1 is correct 350 points is a large investment and you may not do 350 points worth of damage.

I am figuring that in. It's the only thing keeping them even in the picture, their melee is pathetic for the points cost.

C'tan have decent - not good, but decent - offense against armies without screens that are overwhelmingly made up of elite infantry. Their offense drops to almost nothing against anyone who can screen with cheap junk. Nightbringer goes up one rank for both, to good offense against ideal targets and mediocre against screens. Void dragon has good offense against vehicles if your opponent lets him get into melee with one, but still practically nothing against screens.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I am figuring that in. It's the only thing keeping them even in the picture, their melee is pathetic for the points cost.

C'tan have decent - not good, but decent - offense against armies without screens that are overwhelmingly made up of elite infantry. Their offense drops to almost nothing against anyone who can screen with cheap junk. Nightbringer goes up one rank for both, to good offense against ideal targets and mediocre against screens. Void dragon has good offense against vehicles if your opponent lets him get into melee with one, but still practically nothing against screens.

We have gauss for days, Necrons do not worry about screens.

A list with two or three C'tan typically has a lot less gauss than a list without 700+ points going into a couple models.

I'm not saying C'tan are terrible, I'm just saying you need to think very carefully about how even one is actually going to function in a list. They need careful support to function, they aren't something you just toss into any old list and figure it's bound to get value. That's true of almost all expensive single entity units, but it's especially true of single entity units that do limited damage at range, don't move quickly, can't do anything after advancing or falling back, AND don't get character protection.

If you line everything right a C'tan can be a great unit, but they will flop hard if you just try to use them as a bully. They have big upsides, but also massive limitations.

It's a bit more expensive than the C'tan but I've been looking at the SK of late instead. Great shooting and CC and of course is a buff machine.

Anyone had any good game experience with him yet?

I liked the argument about how it’s not very good if you roll ones.. what is? Does that invalidate DDA’s, the ol’ 1 rolling?

He's the only LoW since pre-nerf Girlyman that's actually value for points IMO. He just does so much. He's like the opposite of a C'tan. C'tan do a couple of things very well and everything else badly or not at all; he does practically everything pretty well, without necessarily having any game-breaking tricks.

I think there's potentially a place for him in almost every list, though obviously lists with a strong <CORE> focus are going to get more out of his buffs than ones that don't. But honestly he's so strong that I think he potentially has a place even in lists that take only one big unit of, say, Lychguard or Praetorians, even without much else that he can buff.

Cauthon wrote:
I liked the argument about how it’s not very good if you roll ones.. what is? Does that invalidate DDA’s, the ol’ 1 rolling?

Certain units suffer more when they see 1's and C'tans, Doomsday Arks, and Doomstalkers are units like that. I am not saying they are bad because they may roll ones I am saying that on average they will perform poorly due to the fact that you will roll ones or twos.

Rolling a one or two with a Doomsday Ark or Doomstalker with their number of shots or their hit roll the unit will underperform.

Rolling a one for the wound roll or ones and twos for the damage roll than those units have underperformed.

I like the C'tans but the doomsday weapons are not efficient enough for me.

40kenthusiast wrote:
40kenthusiast hot takes, part 3 of lots

Would you please use spoilers? These posts take up an entire page

C'tan spit out mortal wounds which is very useful against high octane armies where most models have good armor and toughness, at a high cost per model.

They are very good against custodes as they represent the peak of such armies and their obscene high saves avail them little.

Against horde armies C'tan are of less value. While the mortal wounds a c'tan can dish out might put some notable hurt on a custode force, it won't amount to a fart against a horde of greenskins.

Hi all!

I have picked up the codex after haven't played anymore for more than 12 years.

Now I got some question, which might occur odd to you, but for me are just not clear as I seem to be "spoiled" by half-knowledge of old WH40k/WHF ages ago.... :



1.) Do not quite understand the relics. Do I have to use the strategem "Dynastic Heirlooms" for every relic I get or only for the ones after the first (thus: first one is free)?

2.) Same question for "Rarefield Nobility". Only to be used, if I choose a 2nd one for a non-warlord character?

3.) How does the Resurrection Orb exactly work? E.g.: I have 2 Tomb Blades left from a formerly unit of 9, which has suffered on different occasions in different rounds those 7 casualties. When I finally choose to use the orb, do I roll 14 dice (= 7x 2 Wounds each) regardless of how long those Tomb Blades already have been destroyed? (Do you consider it worth the 30P ?)

4.) Why do some consider the Heroic Intervention being so good (e.g. cryptek arkana "corticla subjugator scarabs")? The heroic intervention move is only 3" after all...does it bring any additional bonus I am not aware of?

5.) Is there a limit of how good a armor saving throw can be? Could it even become "0"?

6.) In the preview of the 9th edition some youtubers mentioned, that only one +1 or -1 bonus may be given at a time. I just can't find that in the core rulebook...can someone please tell me where?

7.) Is there some core rule which states that a natural "1" is always a fail? Or is it possible for Deathmarks with their BS2+ and "My will be done" to achieve auto hits?


Sorry to bother you with those questions, but my opponent has been away from 40k as long as I have. Maybe we can speed up our game not arguing about those points at least. ^^

Thank you for helping me!

Cheers,
Amaurosis

Excited about this one! Look at that alpha strike potential!

Amaurosis wrote:
Hi all!

I have picked up the codex after haven't played anymore for more than 12 years.

Now I got some question, which might occur odd to you, but for me are just not clear as I seem to be "spoiled" by half-knowledge of old WH40k/WHF ages ago.... :



1.) Do not quite understand the relics. Do I have to use the strategem "Dynastic Heirlooms" for every relic I get or only for the ones after the first (thus: first one is free)?

First one is free, then it's one relic per heirloom stratagem use. Ex. 3 relics is 2 CP, 1 free then pay 2CP to use Heirloom strat twice

2.) Same question for "Rarefield Nobility". Only to be used, if I choose a 2nd one for a non-warlord character?

Same as above, except the 'free' warlord trait would be your warlord

3.) How does the Resurrection Orb exactly work? E.g.: I have 2 Tomb Blades left from a formerly unit of 9, which has suffered on different occasions in different rounds those 7 casualties. When I finally choose to use the orb, do I roll 14 dice (= 7x 2 Wounds each) regardless of how long those Tomb Blades already have been destroyed? (Do you consider it worth the 30P ?)

Yes, you would roll 14 dice. The res orb can be good if used right, but generally that 30pts is better spent elsewhere

4.) Why do some consider the Heroic Intervention being so good (e.g. cryptek arkana "corticla subjugator scarabs")? The heroic intervention move is only 3" after all...does it bring any additional bonus I am not aware of?

It has the potential of pulling an extra unit into combat, it's situational, but could be very useful for potentially killing an enemy unit

5.) Is there a limit of how good a armor saving throw can be? Could it even become "0"?

Yes and no, a roll of 1 will always fail on an armor save, but a '1+' armor save gives you a cushion, as anything with Ap-1 would take your 1+ to a 2+ leaving it relatively the same

6.) In the preview of the 9th edition some youtubers mentioned, that only one +1 or -1 bonus may be given at a time. I just can't find that in the core rulebook...can someone please tell me where?

It should be under the Shooting Phase, could be wrong. It does apply to To Hit and To Wound modifiers, but usually just those two... and Reanimation Protocols

7.) Is there some core rule which states that a natural "1" is always a fail? Or is it possible for Deathmarks with their BS2+ and "My will be done" to achieve auto hits?

A hit roll of 1 will always fail regardless of modifiers, so giving Deathmarks MWBD only helps them ignore a -1 to hit on a unit, but they can't auto hit

Sorry to bother you with those questions, but my opponent has been away from 40k as long as I have. Maybe we can speed up our game not arguing about those points at least. ^^

Thank you for helping me!

Cheers,
Amaurosis

Hope that helps!

I would use the orb on stuff like destroyers. Even if you get one back you make back double its points, and destroyers don't have many options to revive.

Using it on deathmarks and immortals is probably more points efficient as you need 2 successes as opposed to 3, but they already get some RP buffs.

Cauthon wrote:
Full shooting armies couldn’t even deal with 1 c’tan though. The only way to kill them is in multiple phases. Can you smite enough to put 3 wounds on multiple c’tans in each psychic phase, can you go toe to toe with more than 1 in combat and still do your missions?

9e isn't about full shooting armies though.nor do you need to be full shooting army to do 3 wounds to 2 c'tans. People gear up to do 24 wounds to t8 models with inv. 6 wounds to t7 is hardly impossible...or even hard

Not sure if I am reading into the wording to much. For hardwired for destruction it says each time a model in this unit makes an attack, re-roll a hit roll of 1. All our reroll ones have a re- roll of 1 per model. Do I need to roll each model separately so only gets one re- roll. The Triarch stalker is worded the same way could make turns take a lot longer.

Diezrevenge wrote:

Not sure if I am reading into the wording to much. For hardwired for destruction it says each time a model in this unit makes an attack, re-roll a hit roll of 1. All our reroll ones have a re- roll of 1 per model. Do I need to roll each model separately so only gets one re- roll. The Triarch stalker is worded the same way could make turns take a lot longer.

No they’ve just worded it really annoyingly because reasons. Every attack the unit makes, a result of a 1 can be re-rolled is what it’s saying, not that only 1 dice can be re-rolled per unit.

Stupid question but i have 20 necron warriors built with gauss reapers but i have another 20 to build.
Should i equip them with gauss flayers or go full out with gauss reapers?

Araablane wrote:
Stupid question but i have 20 necron warriors built with gauss reapers but i have another 20 to build.
Should i equip them with gauss flayers or go full out with gauss reapers?

I'd give your army more variety.

i think reapers are generally better, but flayers arent worthless. I wouldnt assemble every warrior with reapers, just a majority.
i have 70 warriors, im doing 20 flayers.

Araablane wrote:
Stupid question but i have 20 necron warriors built with gauss reapers but i have another 20 to build.
Should i equip them with gauss flayers or go full out with gauss reapers?

I've gone with 20 of each, because they each have a place.

The next 20 will be Flayers which I *think* have more general use, and will top out the number of Warriors I think I'd use in a battle. I'd enjoy more, I think, up to possibly 80 (!), but there's a point where you have enough and I think, *think* that 60 is it.

Diezrevenge wrote:

Not sure if I am reading into the wording to much. For hardwired for destruction it says each time a model in this unit makes an attack, re-roll a hit roll of 1. All our reroll ones have a re- roll of 1 per model. Do I need to roll each model separately so only gets one re- roll. The Triarch stalker is worded the same way could make turns take a lot longer.

Maybe it helps out when you remember every attack is it's own sequence. To hit, to wound, save, damage. You do them together because of speed. At the core they are each separate attacks. Model with 3 attacks does 3 attacks, not one attack with 3 dice.

I don't anticipate using warriors with flayers myself, because I think immortals offer better value for points. My current list has a 20-man reaper bomb, partially for the damage potential but honestly more for the move-blocking ability.

20 Reapers with MWDB + 2 CP (Relentless Onslaught + Desintegration Capacitors) deal 19.25 damage to MEQ.

Reaper Warriors are strong.

Reapers can't use relentless onslaught. They can use Disintegration Capacitors, though I'm not sure it's great value unless you're shooting at something T5 or above.