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It's definitely the biggest disappointment from the new releases. I was sure that the Skorpekh Lord was going to be our version of a Demon Prince - as in coming in a multipart kit with various options to build your own badass. Big missed opportunity

I think it's particularly unfortunate that they gave all the Indomitus characters new kinds of weapons but didn't create relic versions of any of them. A Skorpekh Lord with some kind of badass relic blade could be pretty cool, but he can't have anything. The same goes for the plasmancer and overlord - who I guess you could give the relic tachyon arrow.

They'd probably have had to make a specific relic weapon for the Skorpekh Lord but it wouldn't have been hard to let the Overlord have the relic scythes and the plasmancer have the staffs of light. The fact they can't be relic caddies makes them substantially worse than the older models.

To be honest if anybody has a problem with you saying that the Hyperphase Glaive is a relic Warscythe, they aren't worth playing. Especially as the other standalone Overlord comes with the Voidscythe and none of the 3 available ones have any options beyond their monopose weapon option on their sprue

It's a grey area because how can anyone enforce WYSIWYG on Overlords when their datasheets have the options but their kits come with none of them

I think it's particularly unfortunate that they gave all the Indomitus characters new kinds of weapons but didn't create relic versions of any of them.

Relic tachyon arrow disagrees.

They'd probably have had to make a specific relic weapon for the Skorpekh Lord but it wouldn't have been hard to let the Overlord have the relic scythes and the plasmancer have the staffs of light. The fact they can't be relic caddies makes them substantially worse than the older models.

They can still get Veil of Darkness. Voltaic Staff is better than the other Relic SoL and it's excellent on a Noble, that's two relics, no need for weapon relics on Crypteks. The Plasmancer's weapon is practically already a relic compared to a SoL. I am not saying we can have too many relics, I just don't see the big issue with not having them yet. I think Cryptek Arkana is very cool and it would have been sad if it was just a number of slightly up-gunned Cryptek weapons.

Cynista wrote:
It's a grey area because how can anyone enforce WYSIWYG on Overlords when their datasheets have the options but their kits come with none of them

It's not grey at all lol, get converting. Nobody said this 10 years ago.

Yes it is, and yes they did. The Overlord with Voidscythe came out roughly 10 years ago. What percentage of games in that time do you think people used that weapon profile? It's going to be low.

Even in tournaments many people have used this model as-is and said it's a Warscythe. And I'd bet every player in this thread who owns the model has done it too

Cynista wrote:
Yes it is, and yes they did. The Overlord with Voidscythe came out roughly 10 years ago. What percentage of games in that time do you think people used that weapon profile? It's going to be low.

Even in tournaments many people have used this model as-is and said it's a Warscythe. And I'd bet every player in this thread who owns the model has done it too

I have plenty of warscythe Overlords from Annihilation Barges, why would I use my voidscythe Overlord as a proxy? Proxying Overlords with warscythes as voidblades is no different than proxying grav guns as melta guns. Playing WYSIWYG is not being TFG, although I think proxies are fine.

The voidscythe was released 3 years ago, not 10.

There have been many Overlord releases, I probably got them mixed up

Either way I'm not saying anything about being TFG and not talking about Voidblades (which look completely different). I'm saying proxying similar melee weapons is done literally all the time, especially with monopose single weapon kits

And for the most part, nobody cares

Cynista wrote:
...I'm not saying anything about being TFG and not talking about Voidblades (which look completely different). I'm saying proxying similar melee weapons is done literally all the time, especially with monopose single weapon kits

And for the most part, nobody cares

To be honest if anybody has a problem with you saying that the Hyperphase Glaive is a relic Warscythe, they aren't worth playing.

Saying someone isn't worth playing is saying they are TFG.

I don't see the difference between voidblades and warscythes if you're proxying then you are proxying is what I am saying. Meltaguns and grav guns probably look alike as well.

Xenos getting away with proxies because they are more obscure is nice assuming it is not disturbing the play experience, I still think it is unfair to say to Necron players they can proxy while Space Marines cannot proxy power fists as chain fists, even if the Space Marines scenario is more likely to lead to confusion. I am personally in favour of allowing almost any amount of proxies, including blank bases, but if you are into WYSIWIG and don't want to allow a hyperphase glaive to act as a relic warscythe then I think that is completely fair as well and I would probably just find a different relic if you denied my proxy.

There's no real problem for Overlords. You can convert them, use one of the many other models or whatever. An Overlord can have all kinds of relic weapons... though the one out of Indomitus can only have a tachyon arrow.

But the Skorpekh Lord can't have any of those things because there are no relic versions of his unique stuff. He also can't have a res orb, which the Lokhust guy can. Meanwhile the Lokhust can fly and costs a lot less. In exchange the Skorpekh gets a moderately effective gun and weapons that are ok without using up a relic. But the end result is that a Lokhust Lord can hit harder for fewer points and can also fly and carry a res orb.

I've been finding that Eternal Paranoia is a pretty strong dynasty combo lately.
Eternal conquerors has always been powerful and leans into Necrons greatest strength - playing the mission.
Meanwhile Healthy Paranoia helps with what is becoming our biggest weakness - shooting. Deathguard and Dark Eldar have shown that you can't just pile a load of tough brawlers onto the midfield objectives to win. You will either get out-brawled (Deathguard) or surgically picked apart (DEldar). Necron shooting is either too short ranged, or just not very good for the price. Healthy Paranoia helps with the former, making the guns we want to take (Reapers, Entropic Staffs, Voltaic Staff) more serviceable in a shootout. It also makes a useful improvement to Gauss Cannons, which should be good if they were on more affordable platforms.

What shooting units do you guys value? There seems to literally be something wrong with every option.

I’m not into doomsday arcs or doomsday stalkers because of the massive swings and the “fact” that doomstalkers need to be taken in groups of 3 with a babysitter.

Anni barges are a joke with no ap (or even 1 ap)

I like tomb blades with gauss but they’re pretty expensive

I really like triarch stalkers but they don’t get dynasty buffs which is just awkward

Destroyers are WAY expensive. I’m not sold on heavy destroyers.

Death marks don’t get the job done. They’d be cool next to the silent king but most things are and you end up back to wondering if the points are better spent elsewhere

Doom scythes bring the heat but they’re pretty flimsy. (Why no quantum shielding?!)

I keep ending up with lists that basically only have 40 warriors a voltaic staff and a cpl entropic lances.. I’m wondering how much of a problem that’s going to be. Not being able to pop transports has me concerned all of a sudden after seeing deldar nonsense.

When I put shooting into a list it’s just been T stalkers and doomscythes and then I wish I had points for bikes. Warriors of course.

Does anyone do all shooting? Do you guys favor melee because of ninth but balanced lists? Middle objectives seem like a scary place to be all of a sudden..

Cheers

In regards to shooting, I played the following list recently against Drukhari (Ravager, 3 Raiders, Wyches, Incubi + Drazar, Wracks and Grotesques without DT) at 1500:

Mephrite Spearhead
CCB w/ Voltaic Staff, Gauss Cannon, WL: Enduring Will

2x 5 Immortals
2x 4 Scarabs

Void Dragon

3x Annihilation Barge
2x Tesseract Ark w/ Particle Beamers

This is an evolution on my attempt at a 1500 all vehicles list (+1 Doomsday Ark, +1 Triarch Stalker, -Scarabs -Immortals), which was too lacking in holding points.
I don't like playing silver tide, and I wanted to try something different than the Lychguard heavy lists I've been playing. It worked out pretty well, the Void Dragon brawled in the center while the barges and scarabs took outlying objectives.
Mephrite did not work out particularly well, since staying at range meant I didn't get the AP buff most of the time. However, the Annihilation barges worked out fine without it.

Overall, as far as shooting goes:
Doomsday Ark/Doomstalker: Obscuring terrain means you have to move, and the moving profile is terrible. The flayer arrays are nice though.
Annihilation Barge: I'm quite happy with these, but so far that has only been against Drukhari. You can basically delete infantry if you need to, or do decent chip damage to light and medium vehicles
Void Dragon: Solid, throwing out some mortal wounds and degrading vehicles that come too close.
Triarch Stalker: I was not impressed. The reroll is nice, but it's melee profile has too few attacks to hold a point.
Heavy Destroyers: very nice, but also very fragile.
Doom Scythe: I was quite happy with these, but yeah any fire and they drop.
Tomb Blades: I think I need to try out the Particle Beamer on them, instead of an Annihilation Barge to run with the CCB. Problem is that they're Fast Attack, conflicting with Scarabs.
Tesseract Ark: Survivable and varied. Not the highest peak damage output, but it's very consistent with what it can do.

Our lack of shooting is why I like the Void Dragon. He's a little overpriced, like all the orher C'tan, but does deal with vehicles pretty well. I always run Rad Wreathed so can deal with anything that isn't a vehicle in melee quite well. I also usually take 2 Heavy Destroyers, which are overpriced as well unfortunately, but serve a unique pupose in the army which is: a platform with a big gun under 100 points.

With the right points adjustments I could see Necrons actually being a force in the meta

Two DDAs cost a little more than the dragon, and they do more damage to vehicles, from up to 72" away. The dragon does nothing in the first two turns, maybe a few MWs, because he needs to get close to those vehicles.

 p5freak wrote:
Two DDAs cost a little more than the dragon, and they do more damage to vehicles, from up to 72" away. The dragon does nothing in the first two turns, maybe a few MWs, because he needs to get close to those vehicles.

Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away. Typically they run away. His anti Vehical power is 24" and does d6 mortals to vehicals. Yeah the DDA do more damage on average probably but they also are nothing like the void. Void / much like nightbringer have an insane board presence. The ability to deny invune saves and dish out 10+ mortals a turn is higely unique and deadly.

What about the plasmancer as a mortal wound generator?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.

The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.

The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.

If my opponent stays 26 inches away from the Void Dragon, I win on primaries.

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.

The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.

Vast majority of battles are fought in the midfield and 9th is about contesting objectives in dense terrain where LOS and movement can be real issues for tanks. You're painting a picture that isn't representative of the reality of the game. Turn 1 he is likely in range for 1 power and turn 2 he is in the middle of the board, exactly where you want him. If the Void Dragon is chasing vehicles away from objectives, that is a win

 p5freak wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.

The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.

I'm not going to run after vehicles. He will destroy literally everything he touches that isn't a ctan or ghaz.

I'm just saying...with an advance - hes getting 2/3 powers off turn 1.
Take antimatter / voltaic / hopefully roll a range power that has good range - trands dimensional/times arrow / ect.

That'll average about 4-5 mortal wounds. Almost no armies take chaff these days anyways.

Can't advance and use powers but it doesn't really matter as the smaller board size is entirely in a C'tan's favour

 Xenomancers wrote:


I'm just saying...with an advance - hes getting 2/3 powers off turn 1.
Take antimatter / voltaic / hopefully roll a range power that has good range - trands dimensional/times arrow / ect.

That'll average about 4-5 mortal wounds. Almost no armies take chaff these days anyways.

Can't advance and use C'Tan powers btw. (Ditto fallback).
I don't think casting turn 1 is the priority. If it happens it happens, but the priority is making your opponent afraid of going near an objective. That's also why Sky of Falling Stars is a great pick. Sit behind obscuring terrain in striking distance of an objective, do a few MW's and give your opponent a headache.

Never had my Ctan powers be out of range and not completely dominate my opponent because i had total primary control.
24" range isnt garbage when youre in the middle of the board. hell even 12" isnt bad, just means you might not hit the optimal target but the way those powers work its pretty hard for the power to be totally wasted if it goes off at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I'm just saying...with an advance - hes getting 2/3 powers off turn 1.
Take antimatter / voltaic / hopefully roll a range power that has good range - trands dimensional/times arrow / ect.

Next time read the rules As others have said, no advance and ctan powers.

Dang - missed that you can't advance. That should just be removed it's a damn 350 point melee model - it doesn't need a stupid restriction like that.

Without advance these things are pretty effing useless - I am with p5freak now. I don't even feel bad for playing it wrong. LOL. His shooting attack should be assault as well.

While I agree that their statlines should be much better for their points (thanks GW), being unable to advance hardly makes them useless

 p5freak wrote:


The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.

This is pure theory hammer which doesn't reflect the way games of 9th ed actually work.

A unit like the Void Dragon needs to fight for/threaten the midboard objectives, not chase theoretical kiting tanks across an infinite plain.

8" move + 24" range, no LoS required, Sky of Falling Stars means you can easily be doing stuff on the 1st turn, if that's important to you.

5/6 C.tan powers have 18"+ range, 3/6 have a 24" range, so if you use the strat to roll for a random one whilst in 18" then range is unlikely to be a problem.


All that being said, I'm not sure I'd include a Void Dragon as my anti tank solution. His AT abilities are a little bonus for the most part. If you come up against a Space Wolf dread mob you'll be laughing. He should also get to eat some Raiders against DEldar, as they like to get in close for the Grisley Trophies aura.

How are people finding the choice between the Void Dragon and Nightbringer? It looks to me like the main issue is that Nightbringer hits harder but Void Dragon has a bit of reach. Is that about right? I'm actually considering running the two of them together anyway.

The Has anyone tried using the Void Dragon's spear to snipe characters? Obviously you can't target them directly, but it looks like you could potentially have the line it draws go through a character. Would that work?

I've ordered a VD because it's a great model, but I can't see a good reason to pick it over the NB. NB is better by more than 20 pts.

Pretty sure that would work with the spear, worth keeping in mind.

VD can stick around longer than a NB in some matchups since it has a heal outside of Living Metal.
That is basically all it has over the NB, but the NB having innate no FNP and one of his attacks ignores invuls by default is pretty gnarly. Even his special power is better imo (even if it couldnt snipe characters)