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The New units, which jump out at you?

Which old units suddenly caught your eye?

Vanguard Vets are one for me. They had a LOT of two steps forward 1 step back points changes.

The body went up. Jump packs when down. The TH went up, the SS went down.

The Pred Destructor hasn’t changed as near as I can tell but I hadn’t looked at it that closely. The Autocannon isn’t better than I remembered.

I already didn’t like Centurions, but their double nerf in Bolter a Drill is more confirmation.

4-6 drop pods (with or without tactical squads deploying from inside) all landing on objectives on turn 1 is definitely going to spark more “within 1” of the doors” debates. 6 T6 8w units that might physically block you off objectives - I’d have to measure the doors and empty spaces - is a go first one trick pony, but it’s not a bad one, and some thought to what to do with them going second wouldn’t be too taxing.

I noticed repulsors moved to the heavy support slot. makes sense as it's a primaris marine land raider, but that makes a "not so hot tank" even less so

The fire strike turret is squadronable.

The durability for a 24” TL Lastalon makes the accelerator auto cannon feel like a better choice.

Chapter Command I.e. the one captain rule doesn’t apply if you soup the detachment to IMPERIUM or otherwise make it not an Adeptus Astartes Det. Of course that’s fairly academic. Everything you lose doing that is worth far more.

The nerf to Hero Of The Chapter to now exclude Named is sad. I liked the idea of using it on Tiggy while guilliman was the actual Warlord as required by Supreme Command Dets. And it doesn’t even slow you down because of the addition of Chief Apothecaries, improved Chaplains etc. I can still get the trait aura/select unit in the area if I want.

The tech marine plasma cutter is almost never going to be supercharged, probably should have been 1 mortal wound.

It looks like Stalker Bolt Rifles, and their Heavy Intercessor version has lost the ignore Look Put Sir ability, or the ability get it.

Stern guard had an absolutely huge price increase but still look decent.

My 1st impression was "Goddam, there's more rules involved in playing SM than there are in playing the game...."
And thats before I read a single unit.

ccs wrote:
My 1st impression was "Goddam, there's more rules involved in playing SM than there are in playing the game...."
And thats before I read a single unit.

The joys of the merge and purge codex.

Some units are worse than others. Most of the time the per model cost is for the default equipment. But a few units still charge you extra for said default equipment. Deathwing Powerfists, Tornado Assault Cannon, and others. This book was written/edited very poorly. At least for the way my brain works and were I'm used to finding things in GW books. It gets even worse because the datasheet order in the pages (some sort of Primaris then Old or Old then Primaris plus release date order I'm not able to see a pattern in) is not the same as the datasheet order in the points list (Alphabetical).

in terms of rules clarity etc the marine codex is great. no complaints whatsoever there myself.

BrianDavion wrote:
in terms of rules clarity etc the marine codex is great. no complaints whatsoever there myself.

I don't think they're unclear so much as not uniform. The points list and the datasheets should be in the same order. By FOC, then Alphabetical for both would have been best. The model cost should have always been for the default equipment - if they didn't want to make a more expensive option the default, it should have been Tornadoes come with a Heavy Bolter and 1 other Heavy, then put the price for both heavies in the points list - do the same with the Deathwing Terminators come with a Stormbolter and an offhand weapon. It's very easy to look at the Deathwing entry for example, and skim over the part where you have to pay for the fist there, while it's included in normal Termies. Another almost as good option would have been to seperate default equipment that has a price. i.e.

Deathing X points per model.

Power Fists Y points per model

Upgrades:

Thunderhammer
SS
etc
etc.

There are going to be a lot of people making honest mistakes resulting in an illegal list because of this sort of thing.

I like the new Claws. I've always thought they were overpriced before. Now they really are an alternative to other melee options.

Thumbs up to paying points instead of CPs for Chapter Master and the other equivalents.

I don't like AP-1 chainswords that can be AP-2 thanks to doctrine, for the same reason I don't like AP-1 (let alone -2) bolters. Lethality is already too hight and adding AP to the crappiest 0 points weapons is terrible game deisgn.

I can take or leave the 1AP, the big thing was the +1A on chainswords.

I would have enjoyed seeing them monkey with doctrines on a per chapter basis i.e. Ravenguard start in Assault and Go backwards, or Start in Dev, go to Assault, then go to Tactical since first player first turn charges might be problematic, and they'd probably still have a round of "softening up" with the heavy boys in the back.

Imperial Fists could go Dev, Tac, Dev, Tac, Assault

White Scars might go Tac Assault Tac Assault Dev.

Each First Founding Chapter might have its own pattern through the three Doctrines.

Chainsword already had +1A.

Breton wrote:
I can take or leave the 1AP, the big thing was the +1A on chainswords.

I would have enjoyed seeing them monkey with doctrines on a per chapter basis i.e. Ravenguard start in Assault and Go backwards, or Start in Dev, go to Assault, then go to Tactical since first player first turn charges might be problematic, and they'd probably still have a round of "softening up" with the heavy boys in the back.

Imperial Fists could go Dev, Tac, Dev, Tac, Assault

White Scars might go Tac Assault Tac Assault Dev.

Each First Founding Chapter might have its own pattern through the three Doctrines.

that would have been a nightmare to balance around TBH

Breton wrote:
Chapter Command I.e. the one captain rule doesn’t apply if you soup the detachment to IMPERIUM or otherwise make it not an Adeptus Astartes Det. Of course that’s fairly academic. Everything you lose doing that is worth far more.

The tech marine plasma cutter is almost never going to be supercharged, probably should have been 1 mortal wound.

I was going to mention these exact two things. Agreed that taking extra Captains at the cost of losing the bonuses is absolutely not worth it, it just makes me laugh because of the fluff notion that having non-Marine allies means needing an extra Captain just to sort the rabble out.
The plasma cutter is something I noticed about Mephiston with his plasma pistol, too. I could see a case for making it 2 mortal wounds, based on Hellblasters taking that much damage when they fail...

 Super Ready wrote:

The plasma cutter is something I noticed about Mephiston with his plasma pistol, too. I could see a case for making it 2 mortal wounds, based on Hellblasters taking that much damage when they fail...

They're not characters. Characters shouldn't be able to suicide from full wounds like that. They're supposed to have the best of the best from the Armoury. Also the Redemptor Dread etc only takes the 1 MW.

The plasma cutter is basically like the old Azrael and Sammael. Never overcharging. Now, both of them have MC plasma which count as overcharging all the time with no ill effects.

Weird to me how the points for chapter command are different in the back of the book to where the rules are outlined

Internal balance is a dream, external is a nightmare.

3pts for an item that grants a usually base attack 3 unit +1A, -2ap and full rerolls to wound.

Vanvets becoming flying assault intercessors

Dreads being a similar pts cost to every other dread equivalent but getting the massive -1d ability.

I played a dw vs ba test game and just had no idea what id try to do against either of our lists with an army thar wasnt bringing marine craziness.

"Oh jeez a redemptor dread with like 12w and -1d, good thing I have flat 4 damage melee weapons because I also have marines."

 bullyboy wrote:
The plasma cutter is basically like the old Azrael and Sammael. Never overcharging. Now, both of them have MC plasma which count as overcharging all the time with no ill effects.

I... don't think you're looking at the same rules I am? Page 139 in the new Marine Codex, the non-Primaris Techmarine (the Primaris one can't take the plasma cutter).
Has a supercharge profile that kills the Techmarine outright on a 1.

Marines:

-The regular Apothecary takes a large nerf (Needs to use a strategem to revive a "dead" guy), still not great when upgraded, but massively buffed when made your Warlord. Strange way to go about it, did it really need to be nerfed in the first place?

-Master of the Forge (upgraded Techmarine) looks really good when used with the buffed Dreads, doesn't need to be made the Warlord to get the good buff, and has some pretty good offense outside of his repair powers. Not bad at all.

-The Smokescreen thing is weird when only one army has it. Those units can shoot and pop smoke for 1 CP, and everyone else gets it for free, but can't shoot. Also on the strategem front, Guerilla Tactics is very interesting.

Necrons:

-The articles I read mentioning the build a bear Dynasties left out some eye popping ones. Every non vehicle unit getting the Skitarii Vanguard toughness debuff looks quite good, as does +1 save vs 1 damage weapons. I like that you can make different selections to increase the survivability for different units. Take the 6++ to help your bigger guys, or the +1 save for your regular troopers.

-The Canoptek Destroyer model is only 1 1/2 sprues and is very tall, dwarfs most models.

-The Heavy Destroyer is a nice kit and the GW photos don't really do it any favors.

 Super Ready wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
The plasma cutter is basically like the old Azrael and Sammael. Never overcharging. Now, both of them have MC plasma which count as overcharging all the time with no ill effects.

I... don't think you're looking at the same rules I am? Page 139 in the new Marine Codex, the non-Primaris Techmarine (the Primaris one can't take the plasma cutter).
Has a supercharge profile that kills the Techmarine outright on a 1.

Correct, which is how Azrael and Sammael used to be. Now they have MC ones and don't die. I guess the techy needs to stop giving all the good stuff away.

Attack bikes with multi melta lol. Basicly an eradicator with 9 inches more movement, an extra wound, can splitfire without penalty, and comes with 4 extra bolter shots for 10 more points than an eradicator with heavy melta rifle. Calling it now you are going to see top finishing lists with so many of these things.

...if I take a Scout unit with the SPACE WOLVES Chapter keyword, WTF does the plasma pistol for a guy in the unit (not the Sergeant) have to be paired with a boltgun, not a combat blade?

When we got the not-brilliant metal Wolf Scouts during late 2nd or early 3rd, there doesn't seem to have been one with a plasma pistol. If you are building the guy from the plastic Scouts, there's an arm on the Blood Claws kit specifically to give you a Wolf Scout with Plasma Pistol - and with the Scout kit not giving you a one-arm boltgun for the model's left arm, or a slung boltgun, for that matter, it doesn't look like you can even build that as a legal load.

It's a very weird restriction to put on there.

 bullyboy wrote:
Correct, which is how Azrael and Sammael used to be. Now they have MC ones and don't die. I guess the techy needs to stop giving all the good stuff away.

Ahhh, I see - I read your first post as the other way around. To me, this makes sense because Dark Angels are known for extensive use of plasma tech, and having some higher-quality relic weapons dating back to pre-Heresy that other Chapters just don't have access to, even the Techmarines.
But time will tell if they keep this with the new Codex, when it drops.

Something else I noticed digging through a bit more today. There are two stratagems that look like they work well in tandem - although they cost 3CP together. One is specific to Reivers and stops the opponent's ObSec from working, and should the Reivers need a little extra survivability, the other (which is used for units with Shock Grenades - so again, Reivers) stops a unit they're charging from Overwatching and makes them -1 harder to hit in the following combat.
I see this as being particularly useful for denying, and possibly taking, control of an objective for at least one turn on an objective that the opponent thought was probably safe in their backfield with a single, small Troops unit sat on it without much support.
...did... did Reivers just become useful?!

 Super Ready wrote:

...did... did Reivers just become useful?!

In a word: no.

Overwatch denial is an obscenely niche role, and Marines already have other better options to deploy it.

Likewise, the ObSec denial seems great, but the requirement of getting within 3" means it's a telegraphed play 99.999% of the time, and any opponent will react accordingly by either putting enough bodies on the point in question that losing ObSec wont matter, or slagging the Reivers in question.

 Slowroll wrote:
Marines:

-The regular Apothecary takes a large nerf (Needs to use a strategem to revive a "dead" guy), still not great when upgraded, but massively buffed when made your Warlord. Strange way to go about it, did it really need to be nerfed in the first place?

Gotta disagree with Apothecary getting nerfed. A 6+ FnP is FAR superior to the old resurrecting rule IMO. It's just that the Chief Apothecary is a real no-brainer upgrade for the points.

Breton wrote:
There are going to be a lot of people making honest mistakes resulting in an illegal list because of this sort of thing.

If only GW had had a format for listing the points costs of units and upgrades which had worked for literal decades before they binned it for no good reason...

The Hammerfall Bunker doesn't have points options. Heavy Bolters or Heavy Flamers all cost the same.

The Salt Mine wrote:
Attack bikes with multi melta lol. Basicly an eradicator with 9 inches more movement, an extra wound, can splitfire without penalty, and comes with 4 extra bolter shots for 10 more points than an eradicator with heavy melta rifle. Calling it now you are going to see top finishing lists with so many of these things.

I was calling that more than a month ago and people shouted me down because they either hated Marines or were that angry at Eradicators or both. The regular Speeder with MM too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:

 Slowroll wrote:
Marines:

-The regular Apothecary takes a large nerf (Needs to use a strategem to revive a "dead" guy), still not great when upgraded, but massively buffed when made your Warlord. Strange way to go about it, did it really need to be nerfed in the first place?

Gotta disagree with Apothecary getting nerfed. A 6+ FnP is FAR superior to the old resurrecting rule IMO. It's just that the Chief Apothecary is a real no-brainer upgrade for the points.

I too was going to disagree. Even Paying a CP for a guaranteed res instead of a 4+, at full wounds instead of bare minimum is an improvement not a nerf.

Breton wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Attack bikes with multi melta lol. Basicly an eradicator with 9 inches more movement, an extra wound, can splitfire without penalty, and comes with 4 extra bolter shots for 10 more points than an eradicator with heavy melta rifle. Calling it now you are going to see top finishing lists with so many of these things.

I was calling that more than a month ago and people shouted me down because they either hated Marines or were that angry at Eradicators or both. The regular Speeder with MM too...

No Infantry type is limiting from a terrain standpoint, the Eradicators can pay 5pts/model for +2 damage to all shots, they get one double-shooting multi-melta per squad, and you can't necessarily use the mobility if you want to use the buff auras available to you.

Not saying Attack Bikes aren't also good, but I don't think it's a cut-and-dried strictly-better situation.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Breton wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Attack bikes with multi melta lol. Basicly an eradicator with 9 inches more movement, an extra wound, can splitfire without penalty, and comes with 4 extra bolter shots for 10 more points than an eradicator with heavy melta rifle. Calling it now you are going to see top finishing lists with so many of these things.

I was calling that more than a month ago and people shouted me down because they either hated Marines or were that angry at Eradicators or both. The regular Speeder with MM too...

No Infantry type is limiting from a terrain standpoint, the Eradicators can pay 5pts/model for +2 damage to all shots, they get one double-shooting multi-melta per squad, and you can't necessarily use the mobility if you want to use the buff auras available to you.

Not saying Attack Bikes aren't also good, but I don't think it's a cut-and-dried strictly-better situation.

My first choice for a Melta platform was the speeder then it’s the tornado now that they’re split, the regular speeder is the second choice now. Not sure where the new Speeder falls. Speed and fly - or mechanics that replicate the bonuses of fly like fall back and shoot - are huge on a Melta platform.

 Dysartes wrote:
...if I take a Scout unit with the SPACE WOLVES Chapter keyword, WTF does the plasma pistol for a guy in the unit (not the Sergeant) have to be paired with a boltgun, not a combat blade?

When we got the not-brilliant metal Wolf Scouts during late 2nd or early 3rd, there doesn't seem to have been one with a plasma pistol. If you are building the guy from the plastic Scouts, there's an arm on the Blood Claws kit specifically to give you a Wolf Scout with Plasma Pistol - and with the Scout kit not giving you a one-arm boltgun for the model's left arm, or a slung boltgun, for that matter, it doesn't look like you can even build that as a legal load.

It's a very weird restriction to put on there.

The Freddie Mercury Scout (as he was known round our parts) from the first iteration of the Wolf Scout minis had a Plasma Pistol, though he clearly has a CCW too.



There were two Scouts from the second iteration of them that had Plasma pistols (but CCWs too, yet again.)