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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
He doesn't kill a whole squad of guardsmen on average, he kills 8.33. We went over this above. This is actually a significant difference because it means on his own, more often than not he leaves a squad of 10 with one model left after the morale phase, which means he is left tarpitted since he can't fall back and charge or use powers. If he does this all game from turns 2 through 5, he'd kill all of 170 points worth of models in melee. He absolutely is a liability against hordes.

He's a 350 point model that will not get into combat T1 against anything he wants to be fighting, cannot fall back and do anything, will not make his points back if tarpitted while being worn down, and can be killed by most armies in two turns if they set their minds to it. I do think he has a place in some lists, but he's far from an auto-include in any competitive list.

Sure, he can sit on an objective and make the opponent not send their big unit onto that objective. But 350 points is a lot to spend on someone for objective-camping duty. Especially someone who will lose that objective to a move-move-move guardsmen squad that costs 50 points.


Sorry didn’t that discussion, I’ve lumped it in with this useless core discussion that I’ve been skimming by. I meant he kills a guardsman squad with mortal wounds + melee which is important because that guardsman squad could be holding an objective. Also as others said necrons have plenty of Anti horde tools, so him not being the most efficient here doesn’t matter much.

I also saw you say that is somehow bad against marines. This to me tells me you are committed to thinking he’s a non-meta unit no matter what. So I’ll table this discussion until after we see results.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?


I dunno dude. The gamespace is near infinite. There are any of a number of ways to do that. The important thing is that when they rolled over a new edition that changed a lot of stuff, they should have put more work in to make sure everyone's faction worked in the new paradigm. Players deserve better.


So you can't think of anything specific then? dude you're in the same space everyone (except necrons and space marines by virtue of getting their 'dexes first) are using your 8th edition codex until you get a new one. GW ALREADY made an exception for Tau to the new Overwatch rules. hoenstly I think barring GW putting out an entirely new unit type for Tau that's proably the best you can hope for.


I hope the police catch whomever held GW at gunpoint and forced them to release 9th edition before the army rules for it were completed.


British police generally don't carry a firearm and are usually pretty slow to respond, they still might be on their way!
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Breton wrote:


The problem is Tau are designed as the Ork mirror. Really good at shooting, really bad at melee.


Orks are not bad in shooting and they're not great in combat either. 75% of the ork codex is made of "shooting only" or "shooting mostly" units.

They have bad BS but their shooting overall is certainly good or decent enough on the tabletop. Their melee is actually underwhelming instead.

Since the death of power klaws/fists that could instant kill characters and vehicles in previous editions orks are now mostly a shooting oriented army. But thye've always been mixed bags with lots of viable shooting and melee options.

Tau are truly one dimensional instead and they need to change: either with giving them a few solid melee options or with buffing some of their stats in order to make them extremely durable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 07:22:28


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Personally I would prefer Tau to get more alien auxiliary. Kroot and Vespids were interesting at the time of release, but since then have been relegated to the 2nd row behind bigger and bigger suits.

Fish of Fury tactics were fun to have around, JSJ not so much.

   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





As I said I'd like to see GW double down on Auxillery. for Tau, they should basicly be essentially 3 or 4 factions in a single codex.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
As I said I'd like to see GW double down on Auxillery. for Tau, they should basicly be essentially 3 or 4 factions in a single codex.


Sure, with draconian army building restrictions like Dark Eldar and a bunch of HQs which only support very specific units... nah, I'd rather aee them get the Astartes treatment where the army actually works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 08:22:40


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
As I said I'd like to see GW double down on Auxillery. for Tau, they should basicly be essentially 3 or 4 factions in a single codex.


Sure, with draconian army building restrictions like Dark Eldar and a bunch of HQs which only support very specific units... nah, I'd rather aee them get the Astartes treatment where the army actually works.


If by work you mean dominatingly , annoyingly and repressive of the meta, more then Tau as a skew allready are with their lack of dedicated working CQC ...
no, working auxilia, a refocus back on actual tanks and a working combined arms playstyle certainly would be better and healther rather then marine nr 2 blueberry boogaloo.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

a_typical_hero wrote:
Personally I would prefer Tau to get more alien auxiliary. Kroot and Vespids were interesting at the time of release, but since then have been relegated to the 2nd row behind bigger and bigger suits.

Fish of Fury tactics were fun to have around, JSJ not so much.


But then I consider that to be similar to how CSM were so reliant on cultists. If I'm playing CSM, I want the actual CSMs to be good and to make up the core of my army. Likewise, when I was considering Tau (which I was for some time, before my regular opponent beat me to it!) it was because I wanted to play as Tau - not their minions.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Crispy78 wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Personally I would prefer Tau to get more alien auxiliary. Kroot and Vespids were interesting at the time of release, but since then have been relegated to the 2nd row behind bigger and bigger suits.

Fish of Fury tactics were fun to have around, JSJ not so much.


But then I consider that to be similar to how CSM were so reliant on cultists. If I'm playing CSM, I want the actual CSMs to be good and to make up the core of my army. Likewise, when I was considering Tau (which I was for some time, before my regular opponent beat me to it!) it was because I wanted to play as Tau - not their minions.


keep in mind no one's saying Tau themselves should be crap. but rather they should have xenos auxilleries playing a role in covering their weaknesses to make the army as a whole better while still maintaining the feel of tau themselves.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

No I know - but I was burnt a bit by that with my CSMs over 6th / 7th. There did seem to be a prevalent attitude at the time that CSMs worked by maxing out on cultists and it didn't seem to matter that the actual CSMs themselves weren't worth taking... Didn't sit well with me.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Crispy78 wrote:
No I know - but I was burnt a bit by that with my CSMs over 6th / 7th. There did seem to be a prevalent attitude at the time that CSMs worked by maxing out on cultists and it didn't seem to matter that the actual CSMs themselves weren't worth taking... Didn't sit well with me.


I've got a CSM army and it annoyed the hell out of me too. I think the LSM codex shows signs GW is reckongizing the issues, scouts being moved to elites forces marines to take well.. power armored marines as their core troop. I doubt GW'll do anything like move cultists to elites but I'd be willing to bet GW won't make them core.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Blackie wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Could make stuff like the Archon's aura affecting Kabal and Core. Then wyches and wracks get Core. So buffs affect everyone from the sub-army plus the basic troops from the other two.


I agree, Drukhari auras will likely work using two keywords, not only the CORE one. So an Archon will probably affect CORE <KABAL> units


All one of them.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 vipoid wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Could make stuff like the Archon's aura affecting Kabal and Core. Then wyches and wracks get Core. So buffs affect everyone from the sub-army plus the basic troops from the other two.


I agree, Drukhari auras will likely work using two keywords, not only the CORE one. So an Archon will probably affect CORE <KABAL> units


All one of them.


I could see Core actually being the "missing link" for dark eldar, as now you'll have units that can provide buffs to differant sub factions but also some HQs that can provide a buff to all core units.

Although it's more likely GW'll feth it up.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Hecaton wrote:
Spoiler:
Voss wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Basicly core exists because GW doesn't want Captains directing repulsor executioner fire from behind the lines, or overlords hanging back with destroyers and buffing them with MWBD. bopth of which where (apparently) things in 8th edition.


I think some GW designers were deeply, horribly offended by reports that Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, Avenging Son of the Emperor, Lord Regent of the Imperium of Man was repeatedly made to squeeze into a tight parking lot full of tanks and then ringed with a picket of exactly 32 guardsmen.

It was the gameplay equivalent of choking the hallowed Spirit of the Game with a pretezel and then repeatedly putting the boot in.

And thus... 9th edition.
Consider how many design decisions happen to at least discourage or actively stop each part of that.


Plus all those fun late 8th edition FAQs that start with a paragraph that functionally reads as 'NO! You weren't supposed to do that!' Which was probably heavily edited for tone and content.


The message to some factions (like Tau) is "No! You weren't supposed to win!" which is just sad. To be frank, it totally delegitimizes what they're doing when they make the fething primario cart and don't make it a vehicle. They want the game to be broken, but they want the game to be broken in a way that drives marine sales.


After the Riptide, et al, were Monstrous Creatures when they first appeared rather than vehicles, Tau players don't get to bitch about the Primario Kart not being a vehicle.

I'm not saying I agree with it not being a vehicle, but players in glass codexes (or codicies, or whatever)...

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

BrianDavion wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Could make stuff like the Archon's aura affecting Kabal and Core. Then wyches and wracks get Core. So buffs affect everyone from the sub-army plus the basic troops from the other two.


I agree, Drukhari auras will likely work using two keywords, not only the CORE one. So an Archon will probably affect CORE <KABAL> units


All one of them.


I could see Core actually being the "missing link" for dark eldar, as now you'll have units that can provide buffs to differant sub factions but also some HQs that can provide a buff to all core units.


I think you're overestimating how many HQs exist in the DE codex.

BrianDavion wrote:
Although it's more likely GW'll feth it up.


For once we're in full agreement.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..


Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.



And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?


I dunno, I could come up with some kind of ability maybe where after a unit you want to designate as kind of an armored battle-suit that seizes the objectives before the troops go to hold it, they could possibly shoot, and then hve some sort of post-shoot movement to make up for the fact that as a faction, Tau do not get the free movement inherent to charging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Personally I would prefer Tau to get more alien auxiliary. Kroot and Vespids were interesting at the time of release, but since then have been relegated to the 2nd row behind bigger and bigger suits.

Fish of Fury tactics were fun to have around, JSJ not so much.


But then I consider that to be similar to how CSM were so reliant on cultists. If I'm playing CSM, I want the actual CSMs to be good and to make up the core of my army. Likewise, when I was considering Tau (which I was for some time, before my regular opponent beat me to it!) it was because I wanted to play as Tau - not their minions.


keep in mind no one's saying Tau themselves should be crap. but rather they should have xenos auxilleries playing a role in covering their weaknesses to make the army as a whole better while still maintaining the feel of tau themselves.


Would be cool then if those units weren't absolute hot trash wouldn't it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 11:20:22


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





the_scotsman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..


Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.



And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?


I dunno, I could come up with some kind of ability maybe where after a unit you want to designate as kind of an armored battle-suit that seizes the objectives before the troops go to hold it, they could possibly shoot, and then hve some sort of post-shoot movement to make up for the fact that as a faction, Tau do not get the free movement inherent to charging.



proably but would it be something quick and easy to FAQ into the army? proably not.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






BrianDavion wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..


Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.



And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?


I dunno, I could come up with some kind of ability maybe where after a unit you want to designate as kind of an armored battle-suit that seizes the objectives before the troops go to hold it, they could possibly shoot, and then hve some sort of post-shoot movement to make up for the fact that as a faction, Tau do not get the free movement inherent to charging.



proably but would it be something quick and easy to FAQ into the army? proably not.


I dunno, we've got time to write completely new datasheets abilities etc for every single sub-faction marine unit to make sure that space wolves players don't have to wait an extra *checks notes* 2 months between the update they got in april and their new codex coming in november or so.

It's cool for every CSM faction to play 1W marines vs 2W marines though, that's fine, and we certainly don't need to do anything to make Tau function in 9th ed between now and 2021.

Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

the_scotsman wrote:
Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.


Be careful; someone must've held GW employees hostage or something until they released 9th edition, even if it was premature. That's the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't update everyone at the same time (as they've shown the ability to do in 8th).
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





the_scotsman wrote:


I dunno, we've got time to write completely new datasheets abilities etc for every single sub-faction marine unit to make sure that space wolves players don't have to wait an extra *checks notes* 2 months between the update they got in april and their new codex coming in november or so.

It's cool for every CSM faction to play 1W marines vs 2W marines though, that's fine, and we certainly don't need to do anything to make Tau function in 9th ed between now and 2021.

Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.


Well, some factions aren't even getting any update so it could be worse, and frankly so long the virus runs rampant they may very well take their time with the rules etc.

Otoh, .... yeah, it is still accurate.. and a justified feeling imo... especially for late PA factions...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.


Be careful; someone must've held GW employees hostage or something until they released 9th edition, even if it was premature. That's the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't update everyone at the same time (as they've shown the ability to do in 8th).


they indexed everyone and it was also a gak show. With a beta ruleset that was hella abusive.
GW also relies upon the spread of their dexes to generate multiple strong quartals.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 12:59:01


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Not Online!!! wrote:


Otoh, .... yeah, it is still accurate.. and a justified feeling imo... especially for late PA factions...

Which reminds me, the only faction that didn't get a rules update with PA was Necrons. That's fine, they said, because that's the first 9th edition codex; you'll get all the stuff that was going to be in PA in there!

Oh hang on, Necrons didn't actually receive any anti-psyker rules as far as I can see. Two new expensive named characters with really quite minor abilities aside. We even had the Warlord trait deny removed, and the one piece of wargear that allows a deny is still only present on one datasheet in the codex.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmmm. Its the usual debate.

Tau could do with a fundamental re-write to make their codex more interesting.

But I think you could fix them by just cutting the points significantly. Its still lacking interaction and possibly *fun* - and the list would probably be "triptide but now with the points necessary for other units to go claim some points" - but I suspect it would work.

Similar view on DE. I think the 3 (4+) factions in one book experiment has failed. It doesn't add anything but problems. I'd like it abandoned and DE once again re-imagined as a single cohesive whole.

But for all the tears over no HQ options and poison and perhaps Wych Cult in general - as a book, I think it would probably be top tier if everything was about 10-15% cheaper.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.


Be careful; someone must've held GW employees hostage or something until they released 9th edition, even if it was premature. That's the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't update everyone at the same time (as they've shown the ability to do in 8th).


they indexed everyone and it was also a gak show. With a beta ruleset that was hella abusive.
GW also relies upon the spread of their dexes to generate multiple strong quartals.

So instead, the 8th edition codexes function as indexes with any abuses found there persisting and the 9th edition codexes having a leg up as they slowly creep forwards...

and yes, I understand GW's business model. It is precisely that I understand it that I disagree with it. Rules shouldn't be a major source of income for them - "selling rulebooks" shouldn't be the core of their profit. If it is, then obviously things will bloat because "omg we need some new rules to release! Quick make something up!" which is exactly what happens at the end of every edition since 4th.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





BrianDavion wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
No I know - but I was burnt a bit by that with my CSMs over 6th / 7th. There did seem to be a prevalent attitude at the time that CSMs worked by maxing out on cultists and it didn't seem to matter that the actual CSMs themselves weren't worth taking... Didn't sit well with me.


I've got a CSM army and it annoyed the hell out of me too. I think the LSM codex shows signs GW is reckongizing the issues, scouts being moved to elites forces marines to take well.. power armored marines as their core troop. I doubt GW'll do anything like move cultists to elites but I'd be willing to bet GW won't make them core.


Certainly showed balance isn't top priority for gw


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cynista wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:


Otoh, .... yeah, it is still accurate.. and a justified feeling imo... especially for late PA factions...

Which reminds me, the only faction that didn't get a rules update with PA was Necrons. That's fine, they said, because that's the first 9th edition codex; you'll get all the stuff that was going to be in PA in there!

Oh hang on, Necrons didn't actually receive any anti-psyker rules as far as I can see. Two new expensive named characters with really quite minor abilities aside. We even had the Warlord trait deny removed, and the one piece of wargear that allows a deny is still only present on one datasheet in the codex.


Stratagem and relic list is pretty small still. Doesn't look like codex plus pa now does it? Marines meanwhile still have big pile. Just as predicted. Lack of pa was disadvantage

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/15 13:25:03


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Tyel wrote:
Hmmm. Its the usual debate.

Tau could do with a fundamental re-write to make their codex more interesting.

But I think you could fix them by just cutting the points significantly. Its still lacking interaction and possibly *fun* - and the list would probably be "triptide but now with the points necessary for other units to go claim some points" - but I suspect it would work.

Similar view on DE. I think the 3 (4+) factions in one book experiment has failed. It doesn't add anything but problems. I'd like it abandoned and DE once again re-imagined as a single cohesive whole.

But for all the tears over no HQ options and poison and perhaps Wych Cult in general - as a book, I think it would probably be top tier if everything was about 10-15% cheaper.


Just fundamentally: I really really wish Eldar had the same kind of "points+durability bump" that classic marines just got. tbh I'd like it if MOST of the game got that, lol.

but I don't think DE are a non-functional army. Just boring, and as they have been basically since marines 2.0, the comparison in terms of game stats between the supposedly "superhumanly fast" eldar and stuff like space marines equipped with heavy weaponry is laughable.

Charge your hyperfast, drugged up wych arena fighter into a primaris space marine lugging a gigantic autocannon: Make the exact same number of attacks in close combat. LOL.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.


Be careful; someone must've held GW employees hostage or something until they released 9th edition, even if it was premature. That's the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't update everyone at the same time (as they've shown the ability to do in 8th).


they indexed everyone and it was also a gak show. With a beta ruleset that was hella abusive.
GW also relies upon the spread of their dexes to generate multiple strong quartals.

So instead, the 8th edition codexes function as indexes with any abuses found there persisting and the 9th edition codexes having a leg up as they slowly creep forwards...

and yes, I understand GW's business model. It is precisely that I understand it that I disagree with it. Rules shouldn't be a major source of income for them - "selling rulebooks" shouldn't be the core of their profit. If it is, then obviously things will bloat because "omg we need some new rules to release! Quick make something up!" which is exactly what happens at the end of every edition since 4th.


I absolutly agree . Hence why we will get this Edition pa2.0 aswell

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




The Necron player who claims that they lost so much because of the core rule is false. Almost every unit has an HQ choice that provides synergy with each unit. Nobles for core units, crypteks for canopteks, and Skorpekh or lokhust lords for destroyers. Vehicles, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians are the only units in the codex that don't receive a buff from ICs.

Almost every unit received a buff the unit may be different but the new Necron codex is better.


I don't think anyone's actually claimed they got worse, and I even said the 'cron dex does "core" the right way. I would argue (as I said before) most of the Necron "upgrades" feel more like side-grades too. That said, I think I like the dex. It's just that there were two different design directions for these codexes and that's what people are concerned about.

Currently, "core" seems like classic GW. A thing in one army needed fixed, so they drummed up a fix for it, but applied it to everyone whether they needed it or not, and now there's a lopsided result. The DG codex will be very telling imo.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hecaton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..


Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.


A bunch of people have had things to say about this so I know I'm a bit late to the party, but as someone who has been pushing center-field objectives with Daemonettes and Termagaunts I'm not sure I see the problem with Kroot.

They're much better than Termagaunts for that extra point between better melee, better shooting, and pre-game movement, and on average they come pretty close to killing their weight in Daemonettes if they can shoot and then charge them. I will grant that they don't have the morale shenanigans but you're paying for that on Synapse creatures in the one case and banners and Syll'Esske in the other.

They're not great but nothing on the 5-7 point range really is. (Guardsmen not withstanding, and they're not really great either, just a noticable outlier.) Big blobs of Gaunts and daemons seem to be working, can anyone who has tried putting a significant number of Kroot on the table in 9th speak to why they don't work?

   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





the_scotsman wrote:


but I don't think DE are a non-functional army.


I don't think they're an army, let alone a functional one. I mean they're better off than Custodes, and some others but they're still hurting for datasheets. They feel more like a Edlar supplement/auxiliary. They need a lot of units, and quick.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Kroot are more of a model issue than gaunts/daemonettes tho.

If they were plastic I'm sure the rules would be at least "passable".
   
 
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