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 CKO wrote:
Necron's Core units are those who have a relationship with the Noble. The canopteks don't have core because they are ruled by Crypteks. Destroyers don't have core because they are machines who focus soley on the destruction of their enemies.

The Necron player who claims that they lost so much because of the core rule is false. Almost every unit has an HQ choice that provides synergy with each unit. Nobles for core units, crypteks for canopteks, and Skorpekh or lokhust lords for destroyers. Vehicles, Flayed Ones, and Triarch Praetorians are the only units in the codex that don't receive a buff from ICs.

Almost every unit received a buff the unit may be different but the new Necron codex is better.

What faction do you play?

What would that matter?

Core is core for fluff reasons, which is why things like Centurions not getting it stand out as incongruous.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:


I don’t exactly get what your argument here is. Plenty of melee beatstick a are seeing play right now. Greater demons, custode terminators, space marine smash characters, deathshroud terminators, oh and Ghaz, are all popular meta choices. Also the reason why most melee beatsticks fail is because of fragility, which the nightbringer is not. You make it sound like he will fold like wet tissue paper against most armies, but I have a hard time seeing this. What lists are necrons struggling with? We where talking about the marine matchup in this thread, and he seems great there as marines don’t have many great ways to do wounds to him outside of melee and shooting (most marine lists use minimal pyskers, and many of these exist to buff). Custodes are absolutely terrified of him. Same thing with sisters of battle (which got a lot better with the melta rules change). Honestly it’s seems to me he’ll struggle more aginst lower tier armies, like Tyranids, craftworlds, and thousands sons. Demons would be bad if they had any shooting.

Also you are right that the mortal wound output he brings is a big selling point. Kills a lot of meta threats quite well.

My point is the C'tan aren't actually very effective as melee beatsticks. Even Nightbringer (a) doesn't hit very hard for his points except against high invuln/FNP targets, and (b) has no good delivery mechanism for getting into combat in the first place. A model that only moves 8" and can't advance and charge or deep strike is pretty limited as a melee threat because it has very limited ability to choose its target. Nightbringer is only actually effective in combat if he can choose his target, because the only things he is actually good at killing for his points are stuff with high invulns or FNPs that he can negate. But if a smart opponent can just lead him on a merry chase while wearing him down over a couple turns, it doesn't really mater how good he is at killing high invuln high FNP targets, because he'll never get to.

The C'tan powers end up being a big selling point because it at least allows him to do *something* while he's getting moveblocked and screened and otherwise neutralized.

You would have had a point if this was 8th, but in 9th the concept of kiting is a lot weaker. Holding Central objectives is how you win games, which is why you are seeing those previously mentioned threats being heavily used in the meta, despite some of them not being mobile. I personally have used custodes terminators in a ton of games, and pretty much never deep struck them. They have been the MVP’s in most games in anyway.

What matters for beststicks now is how durable they are, and how hard they hit. As you admitted the nightbringer does a good job handling expensive tough bodies, which let me remind you is far more common than hordes right now. Even against hordes, 12 sweep attacks is still pretty decent (in a single a turn, the nightbringer kills a squad of guardsman on Average). He won’t be your primary anti-horde choice in a list, but he won’t be a liability in this area either.

Finally let’s look at durability. IMO nightbringer comes in at a A+++ in this area. Many armies won’t be able to do damage outside of 2 phases, and even the ones who can do damage in 3 are probably going to be extremely limited in what can do a certain type of damage. The fact that assault is likely going to be need one of those phases is even more problematic for the necron players opponent, as you need to position the unit to charge him in the movement phase. That means the op is will be committed to killing the nightbringer before he/she is certain they can do the wounds needed in each phase. For example someone might plan to kill nighty with smites, shooting, and assault. However if they have a bad psychic phase that only does 2 or less wounds, then the unit that will charge him is now doomed to take swings and mortal wounds from him. Many competitive players are going to be unwilling to take this risk. So that basically means you can guarantee it will take at least 2 rounds to finish him off, which is fantastic for a powerful Melee unit.

Basicly core exists because GW doesn't want Captains directing repulsor executioner fire from behind the lines, or overlords hanging back with destroyers and buffing them with MWBD. bopth of which where (apparently) things in 8th edition.

He doesn't kill a whole squad of guardsmen on average, he kills 8.33. We went over this above. This is actually a significant difference because it means on his own, more often than not he leaves a squad of 10 with one model left after the morale phase, which means he is left tarpitted since he can't fall back and charge or use powers. If he does this all game from turns 2 through 5, he'd kill all of 170 points worth of models in melee. He absolutely is a liability against hordes.

He's a 350 point model that will not get into combat T1 against anything he wants to be fighting, cannot fall back and do anything, will not make his points back if tarpitted while being worn down, and can be killed by most armies in two turns if they set their minds to it. I do think he has a place in some lists, but he's far from an auto-include in any competitive list.

Sure, he can sit on an objective and make the opponent not send their big unit onto that objective. But 350 points is a lot to spend on someone for objective-camping duty. Especially someone who will lose that objective to a move-move-move guardsmen squad that costs 50 points.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gyBoNvrP2o explains why the Nightbringer is an S tier unit. Necrons have rapid-fire weapons everywhere to deal with hordes.

Meh I can see why CORE was handed out so generously to marines and not necrons for fluff reasons but it still feels bad. Maybe between WHFB and now GW designed a new definition of core but it just feels bad. Why even design it and then let marines use it for 80% of their codex. Although I guess the main issue is that the marine codex is just over bloated in general. I'm against squating tacticals and their offshoots, but at this point just for fairness sake's they should not be in the same book as derp-marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
Basicly core exists because GW doesn't want Captains directing repulsor executioner fire from behind the lines, or overlords hanging back with destroyers and buffing them with MWBD. bopth of which where (apparently) things in 8th edition.

I think some GW designers were deeply, horribly offended by reports that Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, Avenging Son of the Emperor, Lord Regent of the Imperium of Man was repeatedly made to squeeze into a tight parking lot full of tanks and then ringed with a picket of exactly 32 guardsmen.

It was the gameplay equivalent of choking the hallowed Spirit of the Game with a pretezel and then repeatedly putting the boot in.

And thus... 9th edition.
Consider how many design decisions happen to at least discourage or actively stop each part of that.


Plus all those fun late 8th edition FAQs that start with a paragraph that functionally reads as 'NO! You weren't supposed to do that!' Which was probably heavily edited for tone and content.

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Basicly core exists because GW doesn't want Captains directing repulsor executioner fire from behind the lines, or overlords hanging back with destroyers and buffing them with MWBD. bopth of which where (apparently) things in 8th edition.

I think some GW designers were deeply, horribly offended by reports that Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, Avenging Son of the Emperor, Lord Regent of the Imperium of Man was repeatedly made to squeeze into a tight parking lot full of tanks and then ringed with a picket of exactly 32 guardsmen.

It was the gameplay equivalent of choking the hallowed Spirit of the Game with a pretezel and then repeatedly putting the boot in.

And thus... 9th edition.
Consider how many design decisions happen to at least discourage or actively stop each part of that.


Plus all those fun late 8th edition FAQs that start with a paragraph that functionally reads as 'NO! You weren't supposed to do that!' Which was probably heavily edited for tone and content.

LOL pretty much. It's clear that GW envisioned captains leading a key charge up the board providing support to his forces at key areas. and not "Gulliman Parking lots"

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Basicly core exists because GW doesn't want Captains directing repulsor executioner fire from behind the lines, or overlords hanging back with destroyers and buffing them with MWBD. bopth of which where (apparently) things in 8th edition.

I think some GW designers were deeply, horribly offended by reports that Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, Avenging Son of the Emperor, Lord Regent of the Imperium of Man was repeatedly made to squeeze into a tight parking lot full of tanks and then ringed with a picket of exactly 32 guardsmen.

It was the gameplay equivalent of choking the hallowed Spirit of the Game with a pretezel and then repeatedly putting the boot in.

And thus... 9th edition.
Consider how many design decisions happen to at least discourage or actively stop each part of that.


Plus all those fun late 8th edition FAQs that start with a paragraph that functionally reads as 'NO! You weren't supposed to do that!' Which was probably heavily edited for tone and content.

The message to some factions (like Tau) is "No! You weren't supposed to win!" which is just sad. To be frank, it totally delegitimizes what they're doing when they make the fething primario cart and don't make it a vehicle. They want the game to be broken, but they want the game to be broken in a way that drives marine sales.

Hecaton wrote:

Voss wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Basicly core exists because GW doesn't want Captains directing repulsor executioner fire from behind the lines, or overlords hanging back with destroyers and buffing them with MWBD. bopth of which where (apparently) things in 8th edition.

I think some GW designers were deeply, horribly offended by reports that Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, Avenging Son of the Emperor, Lord Regent of the Imperium of Man was repeatedly made to squeeze into a tight parking lot full of tanks and then ringed with a picket of exactly 32 guardsmen.

It was the gameplay equivalent of choking the hallowed Spirit of the Game with a pretezel and then repeatedly putting the boot in.

And thus... 9th edition.
Consider how many design decisions happen to at least discourage or actively stop each part of that.


Plus all those fun late 8th edition FAQs that start with a paragraph that functionally reads as 'NO! You weren't supposed to do that!' Which was probably heavily edited for tone and content.

The message to some factions (like Tau) is "No! You weren't supposed to win!" which is just sad. To be frank, it totally delegitimizes what they're doing when they make the fething primario cart and don't make it a vehicle. They want the game to be broken, but they want the game to be broken in a way that drives marine sales.

are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..

BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..

Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..

Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.

And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

BrianDavion wrote:
And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

I dunno dude. The gamespace is near infinite. There are any of a number of ways to do that. The important thing is that when they rolled over a new edition that changed a lot of stuff, they should have put more work in to make sure everyone's faction worked in the new paradigm. Players deserve better.

Ah yes, the old "you can't expect game designers to DESIGN GAMES! I mean, how are they supposed to do that?"

BrianDavion wrote:


And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

Make them a combined arms force with a tip of the spear consisting of kroot auxiliaries to push people off of points is a good start, rather than just a static gunline with really gakky kroot elements you can take that don't do anything. Maybe make Krootox riders more durable and actually able to kill things in melee.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

I dunno dude. The gamespace is near infinite. There are any of a number of ways to do that. The important thing is that when they rolled over a new edition that changed a lot of stuff, they should have put more work in to make sure everyone's faction worked in the new paradigm. Players deserve better.

So you can't think of anything specific then? dude you're in the same space everyone (except necrons and space marines by virtue of getting their 'dexes first) are using your 8th edition codex until you get a new one. GW ALREADY made an exception for Tau to the new Overwatch rules. hoenstly I think barring GW putting out an entirely new unit type for Tau that's proably the best you can hope for.

BrianDavion wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

I dunno dude. The gamespace is near infinite. There are any of a number of ways to do that. The important thing is that when they rolled over a new edition that changed a lot of stuff, they should have put more work in to make sure everyone's faction worked in the new paradigm. Players deserve better.

So you can't think of anything specific then? dude you're in the same space everyone (except necrons and space marines by virtue of getting their 'dexes first) are using your 8th edition codex until you get a new one. GW ALREADY made an exception for Tau to the new Overwatch rules. hoenstly I think barring GW putting out an entirely new unit type for Tau that's proably the best you can hope for.

I hope the police catch whomever held GW at gunpoint and forced them to release 9th edition before the army rules for it were completed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

Make them a combined arms force with a tip of the spear consisting of kroot auxiliaries to push people off of points is a good start, rather than just a static gunline with really gakky kroot elements you can take that don't do anything. Maybe make Krootox riders more durable and actually able to kill things in melee.

I don't disagree, but that'll require a codex rewrite which I'm sure is coming, but right now unless you're playing Marines or necrons you're playing with your 8th edition codex. frankly I think Tau are WELL over due a total revamp to add some more depth to the army. no 40k army should be a one trick pony.

BrianDavion wrote:
So you can't think of anything specific then? dude you're in the same space everyone (except necrons and space marines by virtue of getting their 'dexes first) are using your 8th edition codex until you get a new one. GW ALREADY made an exception for Tau to the new Overwatch rules. hoenstly I think barring GW putting out an entirely new unit type for Tau that's proably the best you can hope for.

I don't even play Tau, I play Harlequins (and dabble in orks). Or at least nominally. 9e hasn't really grabbed me, despite the fact that you can win with Harlequins. My point is this - you're absolving GW of the responsibility to put out a good edition, because you don't stop to think that they should have designed the missions to work with the armies that exist. You're saying that they're in the same spot as everyone except necrons and space marines - which is not true, because some factions do great in the current paradigm. And even if it was true, it still wouldn't be *good* - changing mission structure and table size dramatically alters the game, and not adjusting armies to that new reality means that some armies are nonfunctional to one degree or another. Again, players deserve better - Tau should have been tweaked at the start of 9th to be viable, just like a lot of other forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I hope the police catch whomever held GW at gunpoint and forced them to release 9th edition before the army rules for it were completed.

This. The responsibility rests with GW to make a quality game.

As a CSM player, I'm very cautiously optimistic about what GW could do with us, but I am still very much in the wait and see phase until the DG codex drops.

We have how many units in common with DG, off the top of my head: Daemon princes, sorcerers, hellbrute, defiler, possessed, spawn, and chaos lords, on top of special rules like DttFE. How those units turn out I think will determine how much investment 9th gets out of me until our dex.

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So you can't think of anything specific then? dude you're in the same space everyone (except necrons and space marines by virtue of getting their 'dexes first) are using your 8th edition codex until you get a new one. GW ALREADY made an exception for Tau to the new Overwatch rules. hoenstly I think barring GW putting out an entirely new unit type for Tau that's proably the best you can hope for.

I don't even play Tau, I play Harlequins (and dabble in orks). Or at least nominally. 9e hasn't really grabbed me, despite the fact that you can win with Harlequins. My point is this - you're absolving GW of the responsibility to put out a good edition, because you don't stop to think that they should have designed the missions to work with the armies that exist. You're saying that they're in the same spot as everyone except necrons and space marines - which is not true, because some factions do great in the current paradigm. And even if it was true, it still wouldn't be *good* - changing mission structure and table size dramatically alters the game, and not adjusting armies to that new reality means that some armies are nonfunctional to one degree or another. Again, players deserve better - Tau should have been tweaked at the start of 9th to be viable, just like a lot of other forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I hope the police catch whomever held GW at gunpoint and forced them to release 9th edition before the army rules for it were completed.

This. The responsibility rests with GW to make a quality game.

hat's not an edition problem... that's an ARMY DESIGN problem. The Tau are a one trick pony army, THATS the design problem

Hecaton wrote:
Tau should have been tweaked at the start of 9th to be viable, just like a lot of other forces.

It is impossible to make Tau work in ninth with some tweaking. They need a full re-design. The current codex is not balanceable under ninth and frankly ninth is a much better edition than eighth and shouldn't have been put on hold because of possibly the most binary and least interactive army in the entire game. Tau fundamentally do not work in ninth and never will until a full rework.

 Vanican wrote:
As a CSM player, I'm very cautiously optimistic about what GW could do with us, but I am still very much in the wait and see phase until the DG codex drops.

We have how many units in common with DG, off the top of my head: Daemon princes, sorcerers, hellbrute, defiler, possessed, spawn, and chaos lords, on top of special rules like DttFE. How those units turn out I think will determine how much investment 9th gets out of me until our dex.

I'm hoping GW has the presence of mind to FAQ those changes to CSMs and 1k Sons when the codices drop.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Tau should have been tweaked at the start of 9th to be viable, just like a lot of other forces.

It is impossible to make Tau work in ninth with some tweaking. They need a full re-design. The current codex is not balanceable under ninth and frankly ninth is a much better edition than eighth and shouldn't have been put on hold because of possibly the most binary and least interactive army in the entire game. Tau fundamentally do not work in ninth and never will until a full rework.

That redesign should have come with 9th then. That book is not cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:


hat's not an edition problem... that's an ARMY DESIGN problem. The Tau are a one trick pony army, THATS the design problem

It depends on how you look at it. It wasn't an army design problem in 8th. And if the army was that bad, they should have been prioritized over MOAR PRIMARIS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Vanican wrote:
As a CSM player, I'm very cautiously optimistic about what GW could do with us, but I am still very much in the wait and see phase until the DG codex drops.

We have how many units in common with DG, off the top of my head: Daemon princes, sorcerers, hellbrute, defiler, possessed, spawn, and chaos lords, on top of special rules like DttFE. How those units turn out I think will determine how much investment 9th gets out of me until our dex.

I'm hoping GW has the presence of mind to FAQ those changes to CSMs and 1k Sons when the codices drop.

lol

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Could make stuff like the Archon's aura affecting Kabal and Core. Then wyches and wracks get Core. So buffs affect everyone from the sub-army plus the basic troops from the other two.

I agree, Drukhari auras will likely work using two keywords, not only the CORE one. So an Archon will probably affect CORE <KABAL> units, an haemonculus only CORE <COVEN>, etc...

 Blackie wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Could make stuff like the Archon's aura affecting Kabal and Core. Then wyches and wracks get Core. So buffs affect everyone from the sub-army plus the basic troops from the other two.

I agree, Drukhari auras will likely work using two keywords, not only the CORE one. So an Archon will probably affect CORE <KABAL> units, an haemonculus only CORE <COVEN>, etc...

You two are disagreeing. But you're right, in that the Drukhari auras will probably work in the most restrictive and awkward, unfun, and less-powerful way.

Hecaton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Tau should have been tweaked at the start of 9th to be viable, just like a lot of other forces.

It is impossible to make Tau work in ninth with some tweaking. They need a full re-design. The current codex is not balanceable under ninth and frankly ninth is a much better edition than eighth and shouldn't have been put on hold because of possibly the most binary and least interactive army in the entire game. Tau fundamentally do not work in ninth and never will until a full rework.

That redesign should have come with 9th then. That book is not cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:


hat's not an edition problem... that's an ARMY DESIGN problem. The Tau are a one trick pony army, THATS the design problem

It depends on how you look at it. It wasn't an army design problem in 8th. And if the army was that bad, they should have been prioritized over MOAR PRIMARIS.

marines also needed a redesign, you'd think you'd know that given all the people complaining about the last codex

look what tau need is a new codex, and frankly they need a new way of looking at things, GW needs to stop shoveling out mecha (look I'm a battletech fan, if I'm saying a faction has too many big stompy robots it's time to listen) and proably start looking at xenos auxillery. Kroot, for example, are supposed to be the "disposable close assault troops" and IMHO they're not filling that role. replace their basic weapon with some sort of power pike, that let's them fight first when they're charged. it's thematic to Tau as an "over watch faction" and gives them some troops that are well suited to taking land (hell a kroot unit like that with a strike team back lining them would be HELL to shake off an objective)

my question on what you'd give Tau was basicly intended to highlight that problem, the Tau aren't an easily fixed army. but frankly they NEED the fix, new edition or no. because as it stands, they're a dull army

BrianDavion wrote:
marines also needed a redesign, you'd think you'd know that given all the people complaining about the last codex

"Nerf" is more accurate. Doesn't take a new codex to make that happen.

BrianDavion wrote:
look what tau need is a new codex, and frankly they need a new way of looking at things,

They should have updated the existing Tau codex to work in 9e. Yes, it would have taken more work, but it's work they should have done, as opposed to leaving Tau players in the lurch for what's probably going to be years. Players deserve better.

BrianDavion wrote:
my question on what you'd give Tau was basicly intended to highlight that problem, the Tau aren't an easily fixed army. but frankly they NEED the fix, new edition or no. because as it stands, they're a dull army

I think anything that's too interesting would be complained about by Astartes players. Remember them bitching about the Kellermorph? I don't know what specifically you'd give the Tau, though, because it would have to be approached holistically with edition changes and mission design, and that's a tall order. But it's work that should have been done.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

Make them a combined arms force with a tip of the spear consisting of kroot auxiliaries to push people off of points is a good start, rather than just a static gunline with really gakky kroot elements you can take that don't do anything. Maybe make Krootox riders more durable and actually able to kill things in melee.

I don't disagree, but that'll require a codex rewrite which I'm sure is coming, but right now unless you're playing Marines or necrons you're playing with your 8th edition codex. frankly I think Tau are WELL over due a total revamp to add some more depth to the army. no 40k army should be a one trick pony.

The problem is Tau are designed as the Ork mirror. Really good at shooting, really bad at melee. Instead of making Tau good at melee they'd do better to make them get some limited mobility after shooting so they can shoot someone off an objective then move onto it (somewhere probably during their charge phase) before their command phase Their Jet Packs used to be able to do that. It just has to be worded in such a way they can't run out of LOS blocking, shoot, run into LOS blocking.