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Limitations of plastic on organic. Not bad for a day!

rgdgaming wrote:
Limitations of plastic on organic. Not bad for a day!

I doubt that. Victrix gets some amazing quality fur on their pieces.

And should you really be rushing your sculpting process to the point where key detailing (like on that cloak) is only given a day of work-time?

 lord marcus wrote:

rgdgaming wrote:
Limitations of plastic on organic. Not bad for a day!

I doubt that. Victrix gets some amazing quality fur on their pieces.

And should you really be rushing your sculpting process to the point where key detailing (like on that cloak) is only given a day of work-time?

You presume much. But ill take a gander to see what we can do! If Victrix has some good fur, we might be able to rub off some ideas.

Typically the Kickstarter creator defends his work with explanations of the process or photos of progress rather than a quick retort.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Typically the Kickstarter creator defends his work with explanations of the process or photos of progress rather than a quick retort.

There's more to it with Marcus, and I don't want to get into it. I'm displaying feedback to backers, showing what we can do, in a relatively quick time. It's not so much to rush the quality, but to give everyone an idea. I would like to think that i've shown a very willing openess to upgrade, or enhance the models for the better of people.

Yes, you have, which is why I was surprised by your curt reply.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yes, you have, which is why I was surprised by your curt reply.

Probably came off worse then intended. His feedback, as of late, comes off more attacking to me, then actually helpful, and very presumptuous. Taking chain mail for example. Many people don't see the LOD plague that causes chainmail to be a royal pain in the butt. If done to a "correct" way, the chains actually become a problem on the side. After seeing how much of a problem, the scale actually came darn near close to an issue as well (managed to get it though). Tim's been playing a lot with fur textures lately. Fur on plastic was one of the criticisms for the fauns, so I guess it comes down to the technique. That I can see as a valid criticism.

I just wanted to say originally that it wasnt bad for a days work. If you gave him two or three days to tinker, im sure it would be awesome.

rgdgaming wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Yes, you have, which is why I was surprised by your curt reply.

Probably came off worse then intended. His feedback, as of late, comes off more attacking to me, then actually helpful, and very presumptuous. Taking chain mail for example. Many people don't see the LOD plague that causes chainmail to be a royal pain in the butt. If done to a "correct" way, the chains actually become a problem on the side. After seeing how much of a problem, the scale actually came darn near close to an issue as well (managed to get it though). Tim's been playing a lot with fur textures lately. Fur on plastic was one of the criticisms for the fauns, so I guess it comes down to the technique. That I can see as a valid criticism.

I just wanted to say originally that it wasnt bad for a days work. If you gave him two or three days to tinker, im sure it would be awesome.

Thank you for off-handedly assuming I have been attacking you, rather than being critical of your process and constructively critical of your miniatures offerings. And instead of professionally replying with a detailed explanation of your process and discussing with me, you curtly quip back.

If you are referring to my review of the fauns and centaurs on facebook, I believe my words there said nothing that had not been said by others before. RDG's earlier work are thin, small models compared to other 28mm miniatures, and the centaurs are in scale or extremely close with 1/72nd scale plastic horses (Which is obviously a scale outside of the advertised 28mm)

Below photos for emphasis and proof of my above words.

I just wanted to say originally that it wasnt bad for a days work. If you gave him two or three days to tinker, im sure it would be awesome.

And, again, I ask: Why did you not give him the extra days, and instead fast-track the sculpting process? Surely the middling results prove that the extra time to develop the product would be worth it?

That's where you and I disconnect Max. In that post on WGA, while you did criticize the centaurs, it wasn't necessarily bad. Your chief complaints coincided with customers.

People either didn't like the size, or there weren't enough bows. My own criticism stems to the two hander.

In that same post you also agreed that it was probably best that I worked the side of proportioning. Many people agreed.

The action of going smaller was a hit or miss, and it was cool to see people's perceptions challenged. Sizing of centaurs, proportions out of whack etc.

We did a cool thing by doing it: we made a regiment that people could buy for under $70, and we didnt go to the ogre horse route that people hate. It's probably due to the GW size, or other related models, that's my guess.

No problems whatsoever with that criticism.

To answer your question: we had under a week to show people a wider variety of things we could do to improve on the models. This was a way to connect with backers and help those who wanted to see more models come to light. If you are taking it as me trying to rush stuff, please don't. This is where my perception of feeling attacked comes from.

Without getting more information, you jumped to me cheating people. Just like you judged it was unrealistic to do two molds for the project with the goal in mind. You were presumptuous.

The faun project created three molds, at about 24k, plastic and pewter were around 27k at the end of the day. And we still delivered on our products in the end, in the middle of shut downs. If we had done the molding in the US, that would have been 120-150k alone, maybe 75k if they offshored it to China and brought it back. Working with Hudson allowed us to get costs down on molds, due to the return customer basis he was getting with the factory. The money maker for the factory is the plastic run. Otherwise you would see a mold range varying from 3-11k. The average being closer to 8-11. Very tangible, if you negotiate, produce multiple molds, and save them the cost of a freeform sculptor, which Tim Barry is . Not doing this to be smug, just know I paid the price to learn.

rgdgaming wrote:


To answer your question: we had under a week to show people a wider variety of things we could do to improve on the models. This was a way to connect with backers and help those who wanted to see more models come to light. If you are taking it as me trying to rush stuff, please don't. This is where my perception of feeling attacked comes from.

1. Why did you only have a week? I'm sure the kickstarter had been in the planning for several months, with associated time to get sculpts done to a high standard. I can see short time-frame turnaround on fixes. That makes sense.

I'm not trying to attack you. I'm trying to tell you the perception you are putting out there is that it's rushed. This clarifies that slightly as these are "Fixes" and not new miniatures sculpted in a few days.

Without getting more information, you jumped to me cheating people. Just like you judged it was unrealistic to do two molds for the project with the goal in mind. You were presumptuous.

please quote me exactly where I "Jumped" to you cheating people? As far as 2 molds based on your goal, it is unrealistic. I've researched plastics manufacturing, especially with minis in mind. Six grand is not enough for a full mold, and you can't normally manufacture just a half. Again, not trying to attack you, but to understand how exactly you intend to do what you profess with the goal number you have set (Because again, it frankly doesn't make sense.)

The faun project created three molds, at about 24k, plastic and pewter were around 27k at the end of the day. And we still delivered on our products in the end, in the middle of shut downs. If we had done the molding in the US, that would have been 120-150k alone, maybe 75k if they offshored it to China and brought it back. Working with Hudson allowed us to get costs down on molds, due to the return customer basis he was getting with the factory. The money maker for the factory is the plastic run. Otherwise you would see a mold range varying from 3-11k. The average being closer to 8-11. Very tangible, if you negotiate, produce multiple molds, and save them the cost of a freeform sculptor, which Tim Barry is . Not doing this to be smug, just know I paid the price to learn.

So by those numbers, you lost money on your first kickstarter. Also if we apply this example to the current kickstarter you seem to be on track to lose money there too.

I'm not attacking you. As a business owner myself, I am concerned for you.

Hey RGD, how does this stuff scale with models from Footsore and Victrix?

@RGDGaming

It sounds to me like you are stressed out, reacting to common Kickstarter discussion/criticisms as if they were personal attacks. Please remember that the people posting here all want to see your project succeed.

However, Lord Marcus has a good point. Most of us have backed at least one failed campaign in the past. Based on those past experiences, $6,000 is a very low amount of money for two Sprues. One of my biggest worries about your project is that you would only just barely fund, which is usually worse for creators and backers than not funding at all. After Defiance, Mecha Front, Robotech, and even Dreamforge and Sedition Wars, backers want some reason to believe they won’t get burned again.

 lord marcus wrote:

rgdgaming wrote:


To answer your question: we had under a week to show people a wider variety of things we could do to improve on the models. This was a way to connect with backers and help those who wanted to see more models come to light. If you are taking it as me trying to rush stuff, please don't. This is where my perception of feeling attacked comes from.

1. Why did you only have a week? I'm sure the kickstarter had been in the planning for several months, with associated time to get sculpts done to a high standard. I can see short time-frame turnaround on fixes. That makes sense.

I'm not trying to attack you. I'm trying to tell you the perception you are putting out there is that it's rushed. This clarifies that slightly as these are "Fixes" and not new miniatures sculpted in a few days.

Without getting more information, you jumped to me cheating people. Just like you judged it was unrealistic to do two molds for the project with the goal in mind. You were presumptuous.

please quote me exactly where I "Jumped" to you cheating people? As far as 2 molds based on your goal, it is unrealistic. I've researched plastics manufacturing, especially with minis in mind. Six grand is not enough for a full mold, and you can't normally manufacture just a half. Again, not trying to attack you, but to understand how exactly you intend to do what you profess with the goal number you have set (Because again, it frankly doesn't make sense.)

The faun project created three molds, at about 24k, plastic and pewter were around 27k at the end of the day. And we still delivered on our products in the end, in the middle of shut downs. If we had done the molding in the US, that would have been 120-150k alone, maybe 75k if they offshored it to China and brought it back. Working with Hudson allowed us to get costs down on molds, due to the return customer basis he was getting with the factory. The money maker for the factory is the plastic run. Otherwise you would see a mold range varying from 3-11k. The average being closer to 8-11. Very tangible, if you negotiate, produce multiple molds, and save them the cost of a freeform sculptor, which Tim Barry is . Not doing this to be smug, just know I paid the price to learn.

So by those numbers, you lost money on your first kickstarter. Also if we apply this example to the current kickstarter you seem to be on track to lose money there too.

I'm not attacking you. As a business owner myself, I am concerned for you.

It's not just a question for a week; I came into the project with a base concept, and took the time to see what backers wanted. While we waited around the month of the project, we tackled some sculpts to get people on board with our concept. Short term fixes, add ons, all useful stuff. We will likely be etching out and test driving some 3D prints soon. January and February don't have much going in mold prep time.

It’s not at all unrealistic, if you are willing to cover the difference. 3k will get you a 3x4, 6k for a 4x6 is possible, but only with good discount rates, and that's typically if the mold manufacture is doing it wholesale. Any less and they are charging for free form (depends on how the plastic rate goes, because the run will need to be larger). 8K is about right for a 4x6 without the discount rate. If you go 11 then you are closer to 6x9. From the same source company, one half can be run, if necessary, but two is ideal. Centaurs and Afghans are on the same mold. The only place you can get a decent rate is China.

As a business owner, I can respect what you do, and you have your perceived risks and rewards in the 3D printing realm. I got into this with my perceived risks and challenges. Plastic is expensive, but we are in a good spot: tax refund season, stimulus, and business grant repayment. I didn't do pewter this round, so my costs arent out of this world. We incorporated more STL backers, and found a decent way to price out backer boxes. We learned from the first go, need not worry about me.

If your intention was not malicious, that’s fine, but that is how I saw your comments.

Are you sure you can get the same discounted rate for manufacturing on your second campaign that you got on the first? Remember what happened to Dreamforge after they got their great manufacturing discounts?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are you sure you can get the same discounted rate for manufacturing on your second campaign that you got on the first? Remember what happened to Dreamforge after they got their great manufacturing discounts?

I'd be surprised with this one, as that would leave WGA in a gak of trouble. They are consistent from what I can tell. The outsourcing company is based in Chicago, good chap! Not really a big secret. Used by many others in the ks field, and miniature world. If this was around the 2012 era, I can see dodgy molders. But, the prevalence of Freeform is making some operations into a 2-3 week gap, maybe 2-3 months of etching.

Uh, I could be wrong, but aren’t you publicly feuding with one of their people right now?

Also, hasn’t WGA grown from a fledgling company with two products looking to make a name for themselves when they signed on for your faun project to one of the premier plastic miniatures companies in the world with an established brand identity hat doesn’t need a boost in visibility or fuller catalogue which would lead them to work so generously with you?

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with WGA or any contracts you may have, but this is really giving me old Wargames Factory/Dreamforge vibes.

I think everybody needs to take a breather. I think that Bob and Marcus are trying to be helpful, but it is making rgdgaming feel a bit defensive as he feels he and Tim are doing the best possible giving the circumstances.

Rgdgaming has plenty of skin in the game, and I'm not sure that speculation about his business relationships etc. are warranted. He delivered in impressive style with his first project all things considered.

Ultimately it is up to us consumers to decide if what he is offering is worth the price. I have a lot of specific ways that I feel the sculpts can be improved, but given the track record, I'm willing to believe rgdgaming when he says he is open to suggestions at a later point in the process.

Right now, rgdgaming is trying to give a rough idea of what the Amazons will look like (and Satyr changes) under the project time constraints.

Rgdgaming for his part should try to interpret the comments a little more as passion and care for his project and less as criticism, and others should try to interpret what rgdgaming is doing as roughing in under time constraints.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Uh, I could be wrong, but aren’t you publicly feuding with one of their people right now?

Also, hasn’t WGA grown from a fledgling company with two products looking to make a name for themselves when they signed on for your faun project to one of the premier plastic miniatures companies in the world with an established brand identity hat doesn’t need a boost in visibility or fuller catalogue which would lead them to work so generously with you?

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with WGA or any contracts you may have, but this is really giving me old Wargames Factory/Dreamforge vibes.

I think its misconceptions on each end. But Hudson wasnt doing molds until we both talked about doing them, and that was when he was toying with Cowboys. He ultimately found a good lead that lead to that very company to this day, and he helped set up the contacts for the molding. I had researched everything up to rubicon molding, Mantic's etc, etc, long time to find a good price to quality ratio. Tim actually did the skeletons! Emel helped with the Satyrs.

I mean, Tony lost his interest in WGF to the HK branch, which is now doing work for GW on the side (quick ship logs and manifesto researches show imports into my city) among many others over the years. Wouldnt be surprised if it was the HK branch doing it, as the level of quality is extremely hard to find outside Rubicon relative to cost. UK would be the next best bet, but molds are getting up to 30k+ there, even with freeform. SK Engineering was one I tried, but wasnt in the books. US research was lackluster at best. They wanted XT format files, and 3-4 month EDM sessions (50-60k for a single 4x6 and 27k for offshoring. Almost a year to do a single mold.

China molders in this bracket use freeform, at least the good ones do. The best incorporate the costs. The other underlying factor, there are way too many companies that specialize in PVC, but very rare to find one with competence In HIPS. The thing about China is that there is no consistency, but there are good companies that rely on reputation to keep their sales going. Find those, pay your bills, and they will do good work. We had 10K+ pewter done in one company in a matter of weeks, it was insane. Covid really messed with the boats earlier in 2020. That was a struggle. Helps when you've done business with them, and an outsourcer to work it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 weasel_beef wrote:
Hey RGD, how does this stuff scale with models from Footsore and Victrix?

Taller side, might not jive too well if you are using a true 28.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Uh, I could be wrong, but aren’t you publicly feuding with one of their people right now?

Also, hasn’t WGA grown from a fledgling company with two products looking to make a name for themselves when they signed on for your faun project to one of the premier plastic miniatures companies in the world with an established brand identity hat doesn’t need a boost in visibility or fuller catalogue which would lead them to work so generously with you?

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with WGA or any contracts you may have, but this is really giving me old Wargames Factory/Dreamforge vibes.

My commentary is my own personal opinion, and not that of wargames atlantic, to clarify

 lord marcus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Uh, I could be wrong, but aren’t you publicly feuding with one of their people right now?

Also, hasn’t WGA grown from a fledgling company with two products looking to make a name for themselves when they signed on for your faun project to one of the premier plastic miniatures companies in the world with an established brand identity hat doesn’t need a boost in visibility or fuller catalogue which would lead them to work so generously with you?

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with WGA or any contracts you may have, but this is really giving me old Wargames Factory/Dreamforge vibes.

My commentary is my own personal opinion, and not that of wargames atlantic, to clarify

Lot of different representations potentially, but seeing it as individual. I think i've a better grip where you're coming from now.

 lord marcus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Uh, I could be wrong, but aren’t you publicly feuding with one of their people right now?

Also, hasn’t WGA grown from a fledgling company with two products looking to make a name for themselves when they signed on for your faun project to one of the premier plastic miniatures companies in the world with an established brand identity hat doesn’t need a boost in visibility or fuller catalogue which would lead them to work so generously with you?

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with WGA or any contracts you may have, but this is really giving me old Wargames Factory/Dreamforge vibes.

My commentary is my own personal opinion, and not that of wargames atlantic, to clarify

My apologies.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 lord marcus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Uh, I could be wrong, but aren’t you publicly feuding with one of their people right now?

Also, hasn’t WGA grown from a fledgling company with two products looking to make a name for themselves when they signed on for your faun project to one of the premier plastic miniatures companies in the world with an established brand identity hat doesn’t need a boost in visibility or fuller catalogue which would lead them to work so generously with you?

I mean, I don’t know your relationship with WGA or any contracts you may have, but this is really giving me old Wargames Factory/Dreamforge vibes.

My commentary is my own personal opinion, and not that of wargames atlantic, to clarify

My apologies.

Appreciated, but there is no need. You're good, Bob

It might just be me having seen lots of vase paintings with satyrs, but it does feel like a certain body part is missing. I understand that there are reasons for that, but still. I guess I'll be sculpting it on

Well, are you planning to arm them all with spears, or will you have some shafts left over for conversions?

Congratulations on funding!

Is shipment to New Zealand possible?

I am worried that the Amazons will be a bit too tall, like the Shieldwolf barbarians, but I am willing to risk it as I like their design.

I also love the Centaur horse bodies, but the human part looks a bit skinny. This may be unavoidable though, and again I am willing to risk it.

 StygianBeach wrote:
Is shipment to New Zealand possible?

I am worried that the Amazons will be a bit too tall, like the Shieldwolf barbarians, but I am willing to risk it as I like their design.

I also love the Centaur horse bodies, but the human part looks a bit skinny. This may be unavoidable though, and again I am willing to risk it.

Of course, most countries tend to do okay. Amazons will be a bump higher, but I believe the mass will be alright. Centaurs are just above the humans, just proportionally smaller to mix and match with fauns.

Some videos on youtube are available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb0-WnKD9A&t=219s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dolnikan wrote:
It might just be me having seen lots of vase paintings with satyrs, but it does feel like a certain body part is missing. I understand that there are reasons for that, but still. I guess I'll be sculpting it on

We do have the file for that....

rgdgaming wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
Is shipment to New Zealand possible?

I am worried that the Amazons will be a bit too tall, like the Shieldwolf barbarians, but I am willing to risk it as I like their design.

I also love the Centaur horse bodies, but the human part looks a bit skinny. This may be unavoidable though, and again I am willing to risk it.

Of course, most countries tend to do okay. Amazons will be a bump higher, but I believe the mass will be alright. Centaurs are just above the humans, just proportionally smaller to mix and match with fauns.

Some videos on youtube are available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb0-WnKD9A&t=219s

So are the new kits (Amazons, scythians, satyrs) in line size wise with the fauns/centaurs?

 lord marcus wrote:

rgdgaming wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
Is shipment to New Zealand possible?

I am worried that the Amazons will be a bit too tall, like the Shieldwolf barbarians, but I am willing to risk it as I like their design.

I also love the Centaur horse bodies, but the human part looks a bit skinny. This may be unavoidable though, and again I am willing to risk it.

Of course, most countries tend to do okay. Amazons will be a bump higher, but I believe the mass will be alright. Centaurs are just above the humans, just proportionally smaller to mix and match with fauns.

Some videos on youtube are available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJb0-WnKD9A&t=219s

So are the new kits (Amazons, scythians, satyrs) in line size wise with the fauns/centaurs?

Thank you. I have not seen that second photo before.

 lord marcus wrote:
Thank you. I have not seen that second photo before.

No problem.