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But hey, if you guys want it to be All Guilliman, All Ultramarines all the time, far be it for me to stand in your way. I just think the other chapters should get a turn at the spotlight. I just hope nobody against another loyalist primarch return also complains about UM being some sort of favored Mary Sue Chapter or something as UM players say it's OK for someone else to have a turn too.

Looks at any Space Wolf or Dark Angel lore and laughs at the idea of the UMs being the super favoured Chapter....

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Breton wrote:
But hey, if you guys want it to be All Guilliman, All Ultramarines all the time, far be it for me to stand in your way. I just think the other chapters should get a turn at the spotlight. I just hope nobody against another loyalist primarch return also complains about UM being some sort of favored Mary Sue Chapter or something as UM players say it's OK for someone else to have a turn too.

I would really love for another chapter to get some spotlight. Just not some 1rst founding chapter, those are annoyingly getting all the attention. Just bring back the primarch of a third founding or later chapter please !!!

...was this post missing a /s?

LOVED the Eldar/ DE discussion on page two. Here's what I would add:

Eldar got 2 kits out of PA, not one- JZ and Banshees, while thematically related, are two kits. And this sets the MINIMUM release schedule for 9th- one Aspect redone in plastic and the corresponding Phoenix Lord. If GW stick to that minimum, we will get Scorpions and Karandras. Why? Because they work in KT, which is getting a rerelease, likely Q1, 2021. No other Aspect in resin currently has rules for KT.

On the DE front, releases followed a similar pattern: Drazhar and the Incubi. Now it's worth mentioning that these are DE Mercenary units. Why is that important? Because DE mercenary units work equally well with all 3 DE subfactions, which is super important to keeping DE playable. Also, mercenaries don't get Obsession, which means they are well suited for use with Ynarri. Incubi even have a special strat when they go Ynarri (which is why it's so damn weird that the Incubi were antagonists to Yvraine in PA while Banshees were her ally- totally should have been the other way around, OR the strat should have gone to Banshees, not Incubi).

Again, this sets the MINIMUM standard for DE release: one kit and a corresponding character. If they stick with the mercenary angle, the only thing that works is Kheradruakh and the Mandrake, unless they invent a Scourge character from scratch.

The monkey wrench here is that we know we're getting Lelith. The Wych, Reaver and Hellion kits are already beautiful, which means the only corresponding squad option is Blood Brides.

It's worth mentioning that in the fluff, Lelith has hooked up with the Ynarri and Vect is okay with that, meaning that Lelith may not actually be a DE release but a Ynarri one. Personally, I would hate this- I think the way forward for Ynarri is using them as an excuse to make Eldar models that we've never seen- like corsairs and exodites- rather than using them to take models that we already have away from existing subfactions.

Other options:

Vect as a Supreme Commander + plastic Court of the Archon or Trueborn.

Or

Urien Rakoth + Grotesques.

Or

Beast Master + Beasts to go with Lelith.

Personally, I hope GW goes well BEYOND the minimum standard established by 8th- this minimum standard was one of my few complaints about 8th, and I'd hate to see them make the same mistake two editions in a row.

But I can almost guarantee we won't get less this edition than we did last, and that means at least a Dex, a Campaign book, a squad and a related character.

Agree with pretty much all of that.

I think Mandrakes stand a good chance of getting a plastic release because they are likewise mercs, and could be a good option for KT.

That said, the very thought that Lelith might be released as a Ynnari character is playing havoc with my blood pressure.

I'd love it if Bloodbrides and Trueborn were a real command squad option. Also, throw in Acothysts as a unit, why not. My dream squad setup for them would be:

1) W2, A3. Similar to Bladeguard Veterans, give them an extra wound

2) Trueborn wear Ghostplate Armor, Bloodbrides get the always-on 4++

3) 4-man fixed squad size, limited to 1 squad per corresponding HQ just like guard command squads

4) access to the full Sergeant+Special Weaponry of the corresponding squad

5) Ability to swap out squad members for Court of the Archon models.

Agree 100%.

I think GW should do a box of Trueborn, and a new Archon, both slightly larger and on 28mm bases (like the Incubi). The Trueborn should also have weapon options (like a handheld version of a Disintegrator Cannon for example) not available to Kabalites.

This would apply similarly to Bloodbrides.

Dysartes wrote:

I would really love for another chapter to get some spotlight. Just not some 1rst founding chapter, those are annoyingly getting all the attention. Just bring back the primarch of a third founding or later chapter please !!!

...was this post missing a /s?

Man I hope so, or someone needs to learn the history of Space Marines.

Now a 3rd+ founding CHAPTER MASTER, is a different story. The only Citadel Chapter Master that's been available from a non-1st or 2nd founding Chapter is Lufgt Huron, but he turned to Chaos. Of the Second Founding we have Gabriel Seth, Helbrecht, and Pedro Kantor (2 of which are Imperial Fists Successors).

PenitentJake wrote:LOVED the Eldar/ DE discussion on page two. Here's what I would add:

Eldar got 2 kits out of PA, not one- JZ and Banshees, while thematically related, are two kits. And this sets the MINIMUM release schedule for 9th- one Aspect redone in plastic and the corresponding Phoenix Lord. If GW stick to that minimum, we will get Scorpions and Karandras. Why? Because they work in KT, which is getting a rerelease, likely Q1, 2021. No other Aspect in resin currently has rules for KT.

Was looking at the units. HQs, especially characters, have a lower cost of return so I don't expect the Phoenix Lords always to happen.

I would also suggest looking at Rangers. I know, I know, they technically aren't Aspects, but they do follow their own path, are Troops, so are Kill Team compatible.

Still, there is so much other work to be done with the Eldar, I do hope they look at a more expansive release than just the minimum.

PenitentJake wrote:Again, this sets the MINIMUM standard for DE release: one kit and a corresponding character. If they stick with the mercenary angle, the only thing that works is Kheradruakh and the Mandrake, unless they invent a Scourge character from scratch.

I wouldn't put it past them to come up with something original, either. We could be looking at the Drukhari equivalent of a Ranger or Warp Spider, to say nothing about their obsession with bigger kits like maybe Vect's Dais of Destruction.

PenitentJake wrote:The monkey wrench here is that we know we're getting Lelith. The Wych, Reaver and Hellion kits are already beautiful, which means the only corresponding squad option is Blood Brides.

It's worth mentioning that in the fluff, Lelith has hooked up with the Ynarri and Vect is okay with that, meaning that Lelith may not actually be a DE release but a Ynarri one. Personally, I would hate this- I think the way forward for Ynarri is using them as an excuse to make Eldar models that we've never seen- like corsairs and exodites- rather than using them to take models that we already have away from existing subfactions.

Being available to two factions hasn't really stopped GW all that much, especially if they can sell it to two groups.

And I do like the idea of the Ynnari focusing more on corsairs and exodites. It is a good way to expand the line without stepping on too many toes. Still that's design space that could be taking away from most/all the Aspect Warriors getting a plastic rebuild.

PenitentJake wrote:

On the DE front, releases followed a similar pattern: Drazhar and the Incubi. Now it's worth mentioning that these are DE Mercenary units. Why is that important? Because DE mercenary units work equally well with all 3 DE subfactions, which is super important to keeping DE playable. Also, mercenaries don't get Obsession, which means they are well suited for use with Ynarri. Incubi even have a special strat when they go Ynarri (which is why it's so damn weird that the Incubi were antagonists to Yvraine in PA while Banshees were her ally- totally should have been the other way around, OR the strat should have gone to Banshees, not Incubi).

Well, the mercenary rule doesn't exactly matter when Drazhar is outright forbidden from being in a Ynnari army.

PenitentJake wrote:

Again, this sets the MINIMUM standard for DE release: one kit and a corresponding character. If they stick with the mercenary angle, the only thing that works is Kheradruakh and the Mandrake, unless they invent a Scourge character from scratch.

Crazy idea, I know, but what if Mandrakes got a generic Mandrake HQ instead of a special character?

Personally, I'd really like it if we could have more than 3 generic characters in our entire army.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Based on the imagery I would guess:
1. Chaos Space Marines
2. Maybe Gene stealer

As already mentioned, the imagery is just a place holder and is copied from the rulebook (Imperium and Xenos respectively).

It will be Dark Angel supplement and a Xenos book, of which nothing is known at this time.

How do you know IT WILL BE Dark Angel and Xenos?

B.c GW literally say it will be.

LOL so they say it somewhere (i suppose it must be a livefeed or something) and then make it 'REDACTED' in their offical statements on Warhammer-Community... Wow...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/12/the-codex-show/

says it right there.

"Dark Angels fans won’t have to wait much longer – your codex supplement will be on its way early next year, along with the first xenos codex of 2021."

Maybe my understanding of the English language isn't what it once was but all that quote tells me is that 1) A Dark Angels Codex is coming and 2) it's coming early in 2021 with the first Xeno supplement.

This line of thinking presumes two things. Firstly that the second book is a xeno book (which is based on the picture) and secondly that the connection of 'with' means the two will be paired together and released at the same time rather than GW just generally saying 'two of the first books in 2021, which could be released any time in the undefined period of 'early next year' will be a xeno codex and DA'.

I'm definitely over complicating and playing with the language but it's a bit of fun and who knows, maybe GW will have a nice surprise (doubtful but i'm told on good authority that miracles do happen).

Personally, i'd love to see Tyranids or Orks get some love Xeno wise as, from my limited knowledge, they seem to need it the most of Xeno factions.

Charistoph wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

I would really love for another chapter to get some spotlight. Just not some 1rst founding chapter, those are annoyingly getting all the attention. Just bring back the primarch of a third founding or later chapter please !!!

...was this post missing a /s?

didn't they already do that with Guiliman? he is after all a primarch of a 3rd founding chapter.


or at least he was before UM became the POSER-boys(correct spelling) for GW.

You seem to be missing the basic concept of primarchs.

Gulliman is the primarch of every chapter that split off the original Ultramarines legion, no matter the founding.

So many great Eldar and Dark Eldar suggestions.

Rangers! Yes please! Love some company in scale with Amalyn Shadowguide- even Illic Nightspear has KT rules. It's perfect! I'd buy Illic and three boxes of rangers in a heartbeat.

A generic Mandrake HQ! Genius! Caveat: he has to have four arms like the concept art for Kheradruakh, so if that's a feature of the generic leadership cast of Mandrake, I'm all in.

Also, thanks for the reminder Drazhar is forbidden from joining Ynarri, I had forgotten that. Actually I think at this point, no named characters can actually join Ynarri, not even JZ and Lelith, both of whom join her in the fluff.

I also like the idea of a new Archon- I like the old one, but not its pose, nor the fact that it is monopose at all, or that as I recall, it has no options.

I think Vect is coming. He was the first Character/ Vehicle/ Diorama 40k model, and now that this sort of unit has become a big draw for GW, it's only fitting that he return. The Supreme Commander battlefield role was made for Vect.

As for something totally random and new, I think that would be a Ynarri only Aspect.

I'd also like to see more Harlequins. I wish the harlequin bikes were still full face mask like the old metal ones rather than standard CWE smooth canopies with a tiny little mask as a detail. I remember a WD photo with a Harlie wraithlord too; not sure if it was converted using a jetbike canopy or it was an actual kit. And of course, we need the Great Harlequin back.

 Jidmah wrote:
You seem to be missing the basic concept of primarchs.

Gulliman is the primarch of every chapter that split off the original Ultramarines legion, no matter the founding.

I've become convinced that some people on here think deliberatly changing defintions etc is "clever"

 Jidmah wrote:
You seem to be missing the basic concept of primarchs.

Gulliman is the primarch of every chapter that split off the original Ultramarines legion, no matter the founding.

I believe Racerguy may be referring to the RT era fluff. According to the background fluff in Warhammer Siege, originally Ultramarines were a later founding chapter (the book refers to them as receiving both the planet Macragge and 'full Adeptus Astartes status' only AFTER the Battle of Macragge in 745.M41. Its obviously been retconned since, but the 'Ultra Marines' (not Ultramarines) were just one of dozen sample chapters pictured in the RT book, no more important than the Rainbow Warriors or Blood Drinkers.

Though Roboute wasn't named then, and the idea of Primarch was still not really present (the 1st RoC book just refers to Horus as a general), and Leman Russ is a 'Marine Commander' in RT, ruling the planet Lucan and most notable for his cybernetic gills. (Complete with picture). The fluff underwent massive surgery to get today's rigid codification.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

I would really love for another chapter to get some spotlight. Just not some 1rst founding chapter, those are annoyingly getting all the attention. Just bring back the primarch of a third founding or later chapter please !!!

...was this post missing a /s?

didn't they already do that with Guiliman? he is after all a primarch of a 3rd founding chapter.

or at least he was before UM became the POSER-boys(correct spelling) for GW.

It must have been a long time before because the Legions and Primarchs have been around for a very long time in the lore. Even longer than Matt Ward has been employed by Games Workshop. Codex Ultramarines dates back to 1995, after the Space Wolves were released. The first full listing was in Oct 1993 in White Dwarf 166 (according to one source) at 2nd Edition's launch. This White Dwarf shows Roboute Guilliman as being a Primarch of First Founding Chapter #13, and the first time that Guilliman was mentioned as being a Primarch. Before then it was the Lost and the Damned book of 1990 which only listed Horus, Sanguinius, Rogal Dorn, and Magnus, but only implying that Leman Russ and Mortarion were Primarchs.

So, the only way Roboute was a Primarch of a 3rd founding chapter is as Jidmah stated, they were a descendant of the Ultramarines Legion. Now, it is pretty much guaranteed that you can throw a rock at a random Founding and it will have many Ultramarines successors in it, but that's not really a good standard to go by, and it was inferred that the author mentioned that the Primarch didn't found a chapter before the 3rd.

I was making fun of how the 13th changed from also ran to poster boys.


But the 4 chaos Gods should have their cult marines before another good guy shows up, ya know like darkest before the dawn and the such.

Berserkers & Noise Marines need new models more than any loyalist needs their primarch, cuz as a Salamander player myself since RT, NO MORE MARINE RELEASES please. My Flawless Host/EmpChild & Eldar(all flavours) would like new models.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I was making fun of how the 13th changed from also ran to poster boys.


But the 4 chaos Gods should have their cult marines before another good guy shows up, ya know like darkest before the dawn and the such.

Berserkers & Noise Marines need new models more than any loyalist needs their primarch, cuz as a Salamander player myself since RT, NO MORE MARINE RELEASES please. My Flawless Host/EmpChild & Eldar(all flavours) would like new models.

your flawless host just GOT new models, given there's no evidance they make much use of noise marines

that's why I said FH/EC.

Actually there should be plastic SQUATS before any more primarchs!

Racerguy180 wrote:
I was making fun of how the 13th changed from also ran to poster boys.

I don't mind that, in the big factions with multiple subfactions - Loyalists, Legions, etc that should happen. They should all cycle from Posterboy to Also Ran, and back again. Not in the rules; but in the artwork, fluff mentions etc. The Summer Campaign foucs should not be any chapter/legion/sept/whatever. All big Factions should be represented, but no subfaction should be the top dog every time, or multiple times in a row. Black Legion, Ultramarines, and a couple others have been front and center too often for too long.

Voss wrote:ruling the planet Lucan

Ha, Lucan is the name of a very boring suburban area here in Dublin - not exactly where I'd imagine Leman Russ living. The nearby area of Swords however...

Semper wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Based on the imagery I would guess:
1. Chaos Space Marines
2. Maybe Gene stealer

As already mentioned, the imagery is just a place holder and is copied from the rulebook (Imperium and Xenos respectively).

It will be Dark Angel supplement and a Xenos book, of which nothing is known at this time.

How do you know IT WILL BE Dark Angel and Xenos?

B.c GW literally say it will be.

LOL so they say it somewhere (i suppose it must be a livefeed or something) and then make it 'REDACTED' in their offical statements on Warhammer-Community... Wow...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/12/the-codex-show/

says it right there.

"Dark Angels fans won’t have to wait much longer – your codex supplement will be on its way early next year, along with the first xenos codex of 2021."

Maybe my understanding of the English language isn't what it once was but all that quote tells me is that 1) A Dark Angels Codex is coming and 2) it's coming early in 2021 with the first Xeno supplement.

This line of thinking presumes two things. Firstly that the second book is a xeno book (which is based on the picture) and secondly that the connection of 'with' means the two will be paired together and released at the same time rather than GW just generally saying 'two of the first books in 2021, which could be released any time in the undefined period of 'early next year' will be a xeno codex and DA'.

I'm definitely over complicating and playing with the language but it's a bit of fun and who knows, maybe GW will have a nice surprise (doubtful but i'm told on good authority that miracles do happen).

Personally, i'd love to see Tyranids or Orks get some love Xeno wise as, from my limited knowledge, they seem to need it the most of Xeno factions.

As an ork player: Nope. Orks are probably the second most functional xenos army behind harlequins.

Drukhari, Genestealer Cults, Tyranids, Eldar, and Tau all have glaring, gaping holes in their functionality between rules that just don't function in core 9th or point costs that were set by a baboon flinging its gak at a wall chart.

18ppm tacticals and 10ppm eldar guardians is a bad fething joke.

the_scotsman wrote:

Semper wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Based on the imagery I would guess:
1. Chaos Space Marines
2. Maybe Gene stealer

As already mentioned, the imagery is just a place holder and is copied from the rulebook (Imperium and Xenos respectively).

It will be Dark Angel supplement and a Xenos book, of which nothing is known at this time.

How do you know IT WILL BE Dark Angel and Xenos?

B.c GW literally say it will be.

LOL so they say it somewhere (i suppose it must be a livefeed or something) and then make it 'REDACTED' in their offical statements on Warhammer-Community... Wow...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/12/the-codex-show/

says it right there.

"Dark Angels fans won’t have to wait much longer – your codex supplement will be on its way early next year, along with the first xenos codex of 2021."

Maybe my understanding of the English language isn't what it once was but all that quote tells me is that 1) A Dark Angels Codex is coming and 2) it's coming early in 2021 with the first Xeno supplement.

This line of thinking presumes two things. Firstly that the second book is a xeno book (which is based on the picture) and secondly that the connection of 'with' means the two will be paired together and released at the same time rather than GW just generally saying 'two of the first books in 2021, which could be released any time in the undefined period of 'early next year' will be a xeno codex and DA'.

I'm definitely over complicating and playing with the language but it's a bit of fun and who knows, maybe GW will have a nice surprise (doubtful but i'm told on good authority that miracles do happen).

Personally, i'd love to see Tyranids or Orks get some love Xeno wise as, from my limited knowledge, they seem to need it the most of Xeno factions.

As an ork player: Nope. Orks are probably the second most functional xenos army behind harlequins.

Drukhari, Genestealer Cults, Tyranids, Eldar, and Tau all have glaring, gaping holes in their functionality between rules that just don't function in core 9th or point costs that were set by a baboon flinging its gak at a wall chart.

18ppm tacticals and 10ppm eldar guardians is a bad fething joke.

being the second most functional xenos army means they're gonna be reasonably easy to do, Orks also have two models upcoming (Ghaz and a Ork model thats been previewed) if I was a betting man, I'd bet on codex Orks pretty soon

Agree with the_scotsman, orks are not in dire need of a codex at all - the only real issue right now is the "Bring it down!" secondary which won't be impacted by the codex at all.

A refinement of the codex akin to what necrons got would be very welcome to make some of the dead options and clans better, but a thorough job on this is much more important than a fast one.

You aren't the first one to bring up orks as an army which is in dire need of help, I wonder where that idea is coming from.

Orks may not be in dire need, GW's "new HQ models for a bunch of factions" had new characters for:

- Death Guard
- Drukhari
- Orks
- AdMech
- Sisters


The new Death Guard model almost certain will be out with the Death Guard Codex in December.

So it's not a stretch to speculate, the "Xenos Codex" for January could perhaps be Drukhari or Orks (given that AdMech and Sisters usually aren't considered Xenos) with that new teased model to tag along.



Of course, these characters could well be released with christmas bundles or some other type release unrelated to Codexes.

In my case, at least, it was based on a selfish perspective arising from my local meta. I don't particularly subscribe to tournament performance although I appreciate it's utility informing these types of decisions.

I know locally, that several (and it is only several) Ork players feel very limited in what builds they can bring to a table and be successful even on a casual table. I personally disagree with them and find Orks reasonable but I don't play with Orks, merely against. Tau on the other hand seem to be doing ok and that they would only need minor changes but again, that's only informed using a small sample size.

I'm glad we could all agree on Tyranids though, ha. As a Tyranid player, the general overreliance on Hive Guard, Tyrannofexs, Exocrines and Genestalers is getting a little droll in an army that's meant to be highly adaptable. The Aussie GT winner with the horde of gants sounded interesting though.

Also, Jidmah, i'd like your signature more if each absolute statement had a link to a peer reviewed journal article. Alas, dogmatism on the internet does as dogmatism on the internet does.

If you really doubt any of the statements, a peer reviewed journal article is not going to change your mind

I'm all open to flooding you with arguments on the ork thing though

feeling limited by your builds mind you is pretty normal (sadly) for 40k. although there's some positive signs that GW is moving towards better internal balance, both space marines and sisters of battle seem to have a varity of builds you can do. How's the necrons internal balance?

Sisters have zero internal balance.

It's basically Codex: Bloody Rose Repentia with other stuff and some miracle dice generation because you can only take 3 of those.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sisters have zero internal balance.

It's basically Codex: Bloody Rose Repentia with other stuff and some miracle dice generation because you can only take 3 of those.

Funny, I seem to recall hearing more then a few lists designed around the argent shroud and retributors.

BrianDavion wrote:
feeling limited by your builds mind you is pretty normal (sadly) for 40k. although there's some positive signs that GW is moving towards better internal balance, both space marines and sisters of battle seem to have a varity of builds you can do. How's the necrons internal balance?

Seems pretty trash as far as I can tell, tbh.

A lot of options within the necron codex are total non-options. There's a lot of "this unit can take 1 of 3 extremely similar guns in terms of role, all cost the same, one does more damage vs 99% of targets. oh BTW here's a stratagem that only works with the one option that's already the best."