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What about battlesuit weapons?
Do we think this balance update has substantially changed the balance of power?

I feel Armour of Contempt and Mont'Ka changes have been a 1-2 punch for many weapons.

Cyclic Ion in particular - it's very expensive and AP might leave it rather lacking for power? Perhaps plasma rifles are now the best choice?

I'm starting a Tau army and I'm looking for some pointers. I have 3 ghostkeels and 2 units of steal suits from way back and recently bought a 'start collecting' box (3 crisis, 10 FWs, 1 ethereal). I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions on how I should go about expanding the collection to form an effective list.

I'm definitely aware that Crisis are the meat of most lists currently and I've read up on the latest adjustments, the problem is that I've never actually played Tau so I don't really have much frame of reference for building a 'semi-competitive' (read more than fluff, less than tournament) list.

Thanks!

 Parsalian wrote:
I'm starting a Tau army and I'm looking for some pointers. I have 3 ghostkeels and 2 units of steal suits from way back and recently bought a 'start collecting' box (3 crisis, 10 FWs, 1 ethereal). I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions on how I should go about expanding the collection to form an effective list.

I'm definitely aware that Crisis are the meat of most lists currently and I've read up on the latest adjustments, the problem is that I've never actually played Tau so I don't really have much frame of reference for building a 'semi-competitive' (read more than fluff, less than tournament) list.

Thanks!

The core of pretty much all competitive lists I believe will be minimum 10 crisis suits, with 15 probably being the most common. Point for point crisis are just the best thing we have and they can receive all sorts of efficiency buffs that other units simply can't. Other critical units are an Ethereal and kroot (infantry and hounds). Stealth suits are a useful unit that can perform a variety of roles depending on Sept. Without getting into the details of different Septs I would buy as many crisis suits as you are comfortable with and at least 20 kroot infantry.

 Dendarien wrote:

 Parsalian wrote:
I'm starting a Tau army and I'm looking for some pointers. I have 3 ghostkeels and 2 units of steal suits from way back and recently bought a 'start collecting' box (3 crisis, 10 FWs, 1 ethereal). I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions on how I should go about expanding the collection to form an effective list.

I'm definitely aware that Crisis are the meat of most lists currently and I've read up on the latest adjustments, the problem is that I've never actually played Tau so I don't really have much frame of reference for building a 'semi-competitive' (read more than fluff, less than tournament) list.

Thanks!

The core of pretty much all competitive lists I believe will be minimum 10 crisis suits, with 15 probably being the most common. Point for point crisis are just the best thing we have and they can receive all sorts of efficiency buffs that other units simply can't. Other critical units are an Ethereal and kroot (infantry and hounds). Stealth suits are a useful unit that can perform a variety of roles depending on Sept. Without getting into the details of different Septs I would buy as many crisis suits as you are comfortable with and at least 20 kroot infantry.

I've seen discussion about kroot but I'm still sort of failing to see the strengths. Are they mostly abused for the pregame move and then hoping to camp an objective for a single turn before getting cleaned up? Do they do anything more interesting or useful than that?

Slightly unrelated, but is there any advice you could provide to create a list that doesn't make me "that guy" in a group of people that don't play competitively? Would that more come down to 'play what looks cool' for Tau?

Thanks again for the advice!

 Parsalian wrote:
I've seen discussion about kroot but I'm still sort of failing to see the strengths. Are they mostly abused for the pregame move and then hoping to camp an objective for a single turn before getting cleaned up? Do they do anything more interesting or useful than that?

Slightly unrelated, but is there any advice you could provide to create a list that doesn't make me "that guy" in a group of people that don't play competitively? Would that more come down to 'play what looks cool' for Tau?

Thanks again for the advice!

Kroot are not only useful objective play/Actions, but they can also be used to screen/chaff your backline Broadsides or Railguns from 1st turn charges, deepstrikes etc.

Spamming Crisis suits will make you "that guy".

 Parsalian wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

 Parsalian wrote:
I'm starting a Tau army and I'm looking for some pointers. I have 3 ghostkeels and 2 units of steal suits from way back and recently bought a 'start collecting' box (3 crisis, 10 FWs, 1 ethereal). I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions on how I should go about expanding the collection to form an effective list.

I'm definitely aware that Crisis are the meat of most lists currently and I've read up on the latest adjustments, the problem is that I've never actually played Tau so I don't really have much frame of reference for building a 'semi-competitive' (read more than fluff, less than tournament) list.

Thanks!

The core of pretty much all competitive lists I believe will be minimum 10 crisis suits, with 15 probably being the most common. Point for point crisis are just the best thing we have and they can receive all sorts of efficiency buffs that other units simply can't. Other critical units are an Ethereal and kroot (infantry and hounds). Stealth suits are a useful unit that can perform a variety of roles depending on Sept. Without getting into the details of different Septs I would buy as many crisis suits as you are comfortable with and at least 20 kroot infantry.

I've seen discussion about kroot but I'm still sort of failing to see the strengths. Are they mostly abused for the pregame move and then hoping to camp an objective for a single turn before getting cleaned up? Do they do anything more interesting or useful than that?

Slightly unrelated, but is there any advice you could provide to create a list that doesn't make me "that guy" in a group of people that don't play competitively? Would that more come down to 'play what looks cool' for Tau?

Thanks again for the advice!

If you want to be less competitive simply take less suits and more of anything else. A lot of the tau book is actually pretty mild - firewarriors, riptides, etc.

The 1000pt list I used against my friends Orks was a commander with high strength and high ap loadout (plasma, fusion, cib, missiles), a fireblade, two squads of fire warriors with devilfish transport, unit of three crisis suits with dual flamer and cib, a railgun broadside with plasma and a shield drone, and a hammerhead with railgun and burst cannons.

Ran it in Vior'la sept

What sort of weapons are people outfitting Crisis Suits with?

 dan2026 wrote:
What sort of weapons are people outfitting Crisis Suits with?

Plasma/Fusion with either Flamer or Burst, depending on your preferences or how often you deal with negatives to hit.

I use double flamers and burst cannons to make use of the Vior'la mortal wounds strat.

People don't think that flamethrowers and burst cannons will pump out that much damage and overlook them for other targets. On even average rolls from a 3 suit team it caps out the maximum 6 mortals from the strat, in addition to whatever normal damage gets through whatever you're shooting at.

Obviously not as good in other septs though.

 dan2026 wrote:
What sort of weapons are people outfitting Crisis Suits with?

Double plasma/1 cyclic or double plasma/1 missile pod.

I have a squad of Plas/Plas/Missile that should be good for heavy stuff, and a squad that was Flamer/Flamer/AFP for ultimate chaff-clearing power. Now I am thinking of swapping the AFP for either burst cannons or plasma. I am leaning towards the plasma, since 6 flamers toasts entire units of light stuff just fine.

I've just started collecting a Kroot army for an escalation league I'm doing with a friend. We'll be playing the first 250pt game in a month-ish.

At low points levels, I feel confident with the Kroot numbers I can squeeze in but I'm already concerned about anti-armour in larger points games.

Is there anything Kroot which works well for anti-armour or is it a case of they're meant to work with Tau to cover that weakness?

Thanks.

With pure Kroot, basically all you have is Krootox for tougher targets. So the strength of your attacks is maxing out at 7. If you can get Krootox into combat with a vehicle (or other high wounds, high toughness, high armour target) and pop the Gland relic from a shaper nearby on them then you are putting out 5 WS3+ (re-roll 1s) S7 AP-2 D2 attacks per Krootox. Which isn't terrible, but requires getting lots of Krootox into combat, having your Shaper in aura range and is only a once per battle thing. Other than that you have Kroot guns, which are basically Autocannons and smashing things with Krootox in melee, which is only S6 without that once per battle buff.

If you're up against anybody bringing T8 2+, then I think you will struggle with pure Kroot as they just don't have the strength, the AP, or the damage output.

Pure Kroot isn't meant to be a thing, they don't really have the tools to deal with anything heavier than light armour (even the Krootox is mostly ineffective against even medium armour).

If you still want to run pure kroot, I've seen others convert Kroot versions of Tau units.
For example the Krootox's even larger and more swoll cousin as a Broadside.

With Armor of Contempt and the indirect nerf, are broadsides with plasma rifles potentially worthwhile over smart missile systems? Or is the SMS still just better in overall damage?

Short question:

Do drones count towards size of e.g. a pathfinder unit when burst weapons hit the unit?

Thank you!

Amaurosis wrote:
Short question:

Do drones count towards size of e.g. a pathfinder unit when burst weapons hit the unit?

Thank you!

I'm guessing you mean blast weapons, and yes they do.

 ph34r wrote:
With Armor of Contempt and the indirect nerf, are broadsides with plasma rifles potentially worthwhile over smart missile systems? Or is the SMS still just better in overall damage?

I just came out of the Bay Area Open, I ran my broadsides with SMS and optics. I know some of the other top Tau players ran either PG or no secondary weapons but instead had ATS and Optics.

The kicker is in all of my games this would only come into consideration vs Tyranids or Grey Knights. Both have transhuman, so might as well as SMS, but... Grey Knights can get armor save -1, so plasma guns are better. Now for the players with ATS... autowound on 6's... slightly better with landing the rail guns, but no secondary guns.Overall less damage, but faster play.


Overall I think PG is better from pure damage. I did find that my SMS were crazy good against Eldar and Necrons but I didn't need them to win those games, and SMS was a little bit decent against nids to route out things that hide. And from double support systems is more efficient from a points perspective if you need those points elsewhere.

The answer is not straightforward. AND PG isn't clearly better because you aren't allowed to take optics with them, unlike with SMS and/or no secondary weapons. So....

You can take stabilised optics with the plasma guns, and if ATS triggers you don't get the mortal wound from a successful wound roll from the railgun.

EDIT:

Although this is meant to limit you from taking plasma and optics, the actual wording doesn't, in typical GW fashion.
"Note: No model can be equipped with more than one of the following: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker."

The correct syntax for what they intended is "On each model, if one of the following is taken then you may not take the other listed pieces of wargear: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker."

GWs wording can be validly interpreted as meaning you cannot take multiple of any of the listed options, which we already knew, but you can take one of each.

And, since it is a stupid and nonsensical restriction only put in there because of bits in the kit, you should feel free to play it as written until GW learns to actually write rules.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You can take stabilised optics with the plasma guns, and if ATS triggers you don't get the mortal wound from a successful wound roll from the railgun.

EDIT:

Although this is meant to limit you from taking plasma and optics, the actual wording doesn't, in typical GW fashion.N
"Note: No model can be equipped with more than one of the following: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker."

The correct syntax for what they intended is "On each model, if one of the following is taken then you may not take the other listed pieces of wargear: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker."

GWs wording can be validly interpreted as meaning you cannot take multiple of any of the listed options, which we already knew, but you can take one of each.

And, since it is a stupid and nonsensical restriction only put in there because of bits in the kit, you should feel free to play it as written until GW learns to actually write rules.

If it were to allow PG and Optics,,, then it would say "Note: No model can be equipped with more than one EACH of the following: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker.", but it doesn't and it would open up more permissive issues. So as written its pretty clear.

ATS is interesting, I'm not sure why more than one player choose that option with railguns. Other than shaving points I wouldn't do it. It is more consistent damage, but overall less. Not sure where 5pts spent elsewhere is better. Possibly you need the plasma guns for your crisis suit models and can't spare them for the broadsides. In my case I run the classic broadsides and I'm kinda stuck with the SMS (I have 5 new arms, needing 1 more to build the option to run plasma guns).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You can take stabilised optics with the plasma guns, and if ATS triggers you don't get the mortal wound from a successful wound roll from the railgun.

EDIT:

Although this is meant to limit you from taking plasma and optics, the actual wording doesn't, in typical GW fashion.
"Note: No model can be equipped with more than one of the following: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker."

The correct syntax for what they intended is "On each model, if one of the following is taken then you may not take the other listed pieces of wargear: early warning override; stabilised optics; twin plasma rifle; velocity tracker."

GWs wording can be validly interpreted as meaning you cannot take multiple of any of the listed options, which we already knew, but you can take one of each.

And, since it is a stupid and nonsensical restriction only put in there because of bits in the kit, you should feel free to play it as written until GW learns to actually write rules.

I think this interpretation is only valid while ignoring the entire entry and reading the note in a vacuum. The entire entry already stipulates that duplicates of each item cannot be taken on a single model. Knowing that, this note (which is within the entry already stipulating no duplicates) has a much more specific meaning -- 'here is a list of things, pick one'

On an unrelated topic, with the rumors going around that Crisis Suits, Shield Drones, and Commanders are all potentially going to see point increases come CA, I'd like to pose a hypothetical for the Tau players: Supposing you HAD to keep playing Tau (none of this "i'd just play a different army" crap), and crisis suit spam was dead or at least much less of a 'must-pick', where would you go from here? What types of Combos would you lean on? What things would you test first?

 Parsalian wrote:
On an unrelated topic, with the rumors going around that Crisis Suits, Shield Drones, and Commanders are all potentially going to see point increases come CA, I'd like to pose a hypothetical for the Tau players: Supposing you HAD to keep playing Tau (none of this "i'd just play a different army" crap), and crisis suit spam was dead or at least much less of a 'must-pick', where would you go from here? What types of Combos would you lean on? What things would you test first?

Personally, I was starting to lean on Skyrays as the 'punch' of a list. But then, I've been theorycrafting with knights more than anything else.

When crisis suits go up, you switch to ion riptides and railgun hammerheads. Quite a few players are doing that now to play into Tyranids better.

Welp. It was nice having almost reasonably pointed Crisis suits I guess.

Sterling191 wrote:
Welp. It was nice having almost reasonably pointed Crisis suits I guess.

And there is zero reason to take normal Crisis over bodyguards as they cost the same.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Welp. It was nice having almost reasonably pointed Crisis suits I guess.

And there is zero reason to take normal Crisis over bodyguards as they cost the same.

They don't cost the same there is a 5pt per model difference and likely they hit both suit options with the same nerf. Unless you know something about the next balance slate that isn't public?

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Welp. It was nice having almost reasonably pointed Crisis suits I guess.

And there is zero reason to take normal Crisis over bodyguards as they cost the same.

They don't cost the same there is a 5pt per model difference and likely they hit both suit options with the same nerf. Unless you know something about the next balance slate that isn't public?

Dude, they are both 40pts now, in the publicly available points update document. Because GW are incompetent hacks.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/mYZ4b5gZUiktj4GI.pdf

Don't you look a bit silly, huh?

Indeed they should have nerfed harder just to ensure a meaningful choice