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yukishiro1 wrote:
And that the Telemon remained completely unnerfed and even got the -1D built in, while every other dread got smacked hard.


Doesn't seem like it went untouched.

-1W, -1S (but that doesn't matter)

Iliastus -1S and -2 shots, but now flat D2
Spiculus -1AP
Plasma Projector 2D3 instead of 2D6 -1S -1AP
Arachnus went from 10 shots @ S7 AP2 DD3 to a double profile
-- 2 shots S8 AP4 D3
-- 6 shots S7 AP2 D1
Lost Spiculus double tap

Points are pretty much the same. No ground breaking nerfs.

260 for the Iliastus. 8 BS2 S7 AP3 D2.
240 for SC Levi. 16 BS3 S7 AP1 D2.

20 points is too tight for +1T, +1sv, +1WS/BS, and a 4++/6+++.

I don't feel like that's a terrible gap. It isn't perfect, but then Custodes should have those features even if it might need a points bump in the future.
   
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That's fair, I wasn't looking at the gun profiles, just the basic stat-line keeping the 2+ WS/BS, T8, 4++/6+++.
   
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Yea there's a ton of weapon shifting. I like the worthwhile distinctions now. I don't like the loss of flavor (see Butcher Cannon losing -2LD).
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Why charge an additional cost of 1CP on top of these changes?
Because GW is excellent at overbalancing things.

To be honest I actually like the 1CP cost for these sorts of units. They're meant to be rare, it's a more elegant solution than the "one per other choice of the same slot" rule they used to have, and it's a good use of the Command Point mechanic (as opposed to "Smokescreen" and other equipment strats, which are just bull gak). Plus we have more CP these days and they regenerate during the game.

The problem isn't the CP cost. The problem is GW's overbalancing. Making the Leviathan T7? The thing is enormous, and the only reason they put it's T down is because certain Marine armies could abuse it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/01 04:33:54


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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To be honest I love smokescreen. I never popped smoke before. Now I don't have to sacrifice shooting for it.

It'd be nice if martial legacy was uniform though.
   
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The only think I would say I'm disappointed about is the Fellblade Chassis going to T8. Not that I think the Fellblade should randomly be of higher toughness than a Baneblade or Land Raider, but in general I think heavy tanks should have been T9 or T10 in the first place, and putting T8 as the vehicle toughness maximum essentially locks in the problem of 8/9e where because the range of vehicle toughness is 6, 7, 8 and the range of AT weapon strength is 8, 9, 10 vehicles are basically all seen the same way by AT weapons and there's no place or purpose, or really differentiation between high power AT systems and between vehicle hulls beyond their wound count.

As far as the dreadnoughts go, the nerf to BS is a good change, but I would honestly rather play against their old profiles than with Duty Eternal. Duty Eternal shouldn't be a thing.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

To be honest I actually like the 1CP cost for these sorts of units. They're meant to be rare,


for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.

And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/01 19:11:08


 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
[
Doesn't seem like it went untouched.

-1W, -1S (but that doesn't matter)


Especially because you're wrong and it still is S8 and W14 like before.

Iliastus -1S and -2 shots, but now flat D2


Once again, it is still exactly the same. It was always D2.

Spiculus -1AP


AP is the same as before.

Plasma Projector 2D3 instead of 2D6 -1S -1AP


The only change this weapon got is the range was increased.

Arachnus went from 10 shots @ S7 AP2 DD3 to a double profile
-- 2 shots S8 AP4 D3
-- 6 shots S7 AP2 D1


I finally figured out what you're doing. You're using the beta Telemon datasheet. That's been the old profile for a while.

Lost Spiculus double tap


No it didn't, the rule went to the weapon's profile is all.

Points are pretty much the same. No ground breaking nerfs.[/quote


Indeed, because it's been straight buffed. It's slightly cheaper while being objectively better.
   
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Biloxi, MS USA

dominuschao wrote:
Can anyone give me an idea of the pts cost for a deathclaw heavy bolter hf contemptor? And a twin bc array Hf levi? Thanks
.


Leviathans, Contemptors, and Deredeos lost the Butcher(and every other Chaos weapon), they use the same weapons as the Loyalist versions now.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea there's a ton of weapon shifting. I like the worthwhile distinctions now. I don't like the loss of flavor (see Butcher Cannon losing -2LD).


Yeah the butcher cannon thing is baffling. They finally add meaningful ways to interact with morale, then remove the rule entirely from butcher cannons. I really did not see that coming.
   
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Quasistellar wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea there's a ton of weapon shifting. I like the worthwhile distinctions now. I don't like the loss of flavor (see Butcher Cannon losing -2LD).


Yeah the butcher cannon thing is baffling. They finally add meaningful ways to interact with morale, then remove the rule entirely from butcher cannons. I really did not see that coming.

Yea, I had plans of getting like two or so to have some leadership shenanigan option as black legion.Now...not so much.
I never had plans to go full on Ld bomb but I for one liked having at least some options for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/01 22:07:38


 
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.
Marines suffer that as well. It's not just a CSM thing.

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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:The only think I would say I'm disappointed about is the Fellblade Chassis going to T8. Not that I think the Fellblade should randomly be of higher toughness than a Baneblade or Land Raider, but in general I think heavy tanks should have been T9 or T10 in the first place, and putting T8 as the vehicle toughness maximum essentially locks in the problem of 8/9e where because the range of vehicle toughness is 6, 7, 8 and the range of AT weapon strength is 8, 9, 10 vehicles are basically all seen the same way by AT weapons and there's no place or purpose, or really differentiation between high power AT systems and between vehicle hulls beyond their wound count.

Agreed. Instead of making Fellblades T8 to match Baneblades etc., they should have made Baneblades and similar super heavy tanks T9 to match the Fellblade, that way they would actually feel like super heavy tanks and be able to compete with all those knights klos etc. running around with invuls.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.
Marines suffer that as well. It's not just a CSM thing.

Maybe not scads, but The Legions should have more access to them than loyalists. For loyalists they're truly relics, kept in stasis fields deep in the armories of their fortress monasteries for millennia. For The Legions they're the weapons they took into the Eye of Terror with them at the end of the Heresy, which for some of them was just a few hundred years ago due to the way the warp distorts time. They're The Legions, they should have Legion weapons.

As for the LOWs, why should marines, spikey or not, pay an additional CP for their LOWs compared to everyone else?
   
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For loyalists, sure, most of your units work just fine without strategems, but not so much for csm. Most of our units require CP just to work, and even much of a legions identity is locked behind strategems. As always everyone looks at this through the loyalist lens, this isn't that big of a hit for them, but it's a big one for csm. We don't even have the roster of options in our codex to replace these units like loyalists do.


This was my initial thought as well "Oh look - CSM got left behind. Again." lol But upon further review, I'm hoping that some of the changes HERE make more sense when the CSM codex comes out. Hopefully we will be less strat - dependent. I don't love that these caught the nerf bat AND 1cp but like I said, hopefully we're just seeing some janky weirdness because we're looking at it in relation to our 8th ed book ... and not because the GW rules team basically had a knee-jerk reaction here didn't actually bother to understand the units and where the problems lie. That would be so unlike them anyway, so I'm sure it's fine. Everything is fine. This is fine.


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Tycho wrote:
For loyalists, sure, most of your units work just fine without strategems, but not so much for csm. Most of our units require CP just to work, and even much of a legions identity is locked behind strategems. As always everyone looks at this through the loyalist lens, this isn't that big of a hit for them, but it's a big one for csm. We don't even have the roster of options in our codex to replace these units like loyalists do.


This was my initial thought as well "Oh look - CSM got left behind. Again." lol But upon further review, I'm hoping that some of the changes HERE make more sense when the CSM codex comes out. Hopefully we will be less strat - dependent. I don't love that these caught the nerf bat AND 1cp but like I said, hopefully we're just seeing some janky weirdness because we're looking at it in relation to our 8th ed book ... and not because the GW rules team basically had a knee-jerk reaction here didn't actually bother to understand the units and where the problems lie. That would be so unlike them anyway, so I'm sure it's fine. Everything is fine. This is fine.



damn now you have me hoping that the codex makes us something else than a ''endless cacophony+Votl+prescience'' army.
   
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Anything that makes marines less powerful is a good rule. Chaos marines will, for now, be an unfortunate casualty, but as soon as they get their inevitable coconuts statline boosts for basically no points they'll be in exactly the same boat as loyalists.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.
Marines suffer that as well. It's not just a CSM thing.


As gadzilla said, for some legions, the HH was yesterday, they should still have their tech. Also, the dark mechanicum stole a lot of the STCs for heresy-era tech so they could still produce them.
And my comment for the superheavies was more of a "no one should pay extra extra CP for them''.
   
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damn now you have me hoping that the codex makes us something else than a ''endless cacophony+Votl+prescience'' army.


Yeah, I mean I am not one to just casually toss out "wait and see", and when it comes to CSM, I realize that history is very firmly NOT on my side in terms of positive changes, but really, when you look at Necrons and Loyalist Marines - their books are radically different than the 8th ed ones. I'm really hoping that when the CSM book launches, they will have some things that totally make it worth it to grab that Levi dread even if it is one less toughness and a cp. Or, maybe, there's a rule like "If you're keyword [LEGION], you can ignore the CP, but if you are keyword [RENEGADE], you must pay it. IDK - possibly more optimistic than this deserves, but I'm trying to reserve final judgement ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.
Marines suffer that as well. It's not just a CSM thing.


As gadzilla said, for some legions, the HH was yesterday, they should still have their tech. Also, the dark mechanicum stole a lot of the STCs for heresy-era tech so they could still produce them.
And my comment for the superheavies was more of a "no one should pay extra extra CP for them''.

Or at minimum, if we are gonna pay CP for them, they need to benefit from their Legion or Chapter rules.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.
Marines suffer that as well. It's not just a CSM thing.


As gadzilla said, for some legions, the HH was yesterday, they should still have their tech. Also, the dark mechanicum stole a lot of the STCs for heresy-era tech so they could still produce them.
And my comment for the superheavies was more of a "no one should pay extra extra CP for them''.


Inversely, for some legionnaires lost in the eye/warp, the HH was 100,000 or a million years ago, not just 10,000.

It's baffling that "time flows differently in the warp" is always assumed to "shorter" when talking about HH traitor legions.

In the average, it should even out with loyalists.
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Or at minimum, if we are gonna pay CP for them, they need to benefit from their Legion or Chapter rules.


I'm assuming we're getting this with our codex. The only reason we didnt get it yet is because we never got a "codex 2.0" like LSM did.
Dreads losing the Helbrute keyword doesnt mean anything and i will 100% keep playing them as if they still had it (even if it doesnt actually matter since our legion traits suck)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And especially not for the superheavies in general, which now cost 4 cp and give up their legion trait as an additionnal cost.
Marines suffer that as well. It's not just a CSM thing.


As gadzilla said, for some legions, the HH was yesterday, they should still have their tech. Also, the dark mechanicum stole a lot of the STCs for heresy-era tech so they could still produce them.
And my comment for the superheavies was more of a "no one should pay extra extra CP for them''.


Inversely, for some legionnaires lost in the eye/warp, the HH was 100,000 or a million years ago, not just 10,000.

It's baffling that "time flows differently in the warp" is always assumed to "shorter" when talking about HH traitor legions.

In the average, it should even out with loyalists.


then refer to the second part of my comment :

The dark mechanicum stole a lot of the STCs for heresy-era tech so they could still produce them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/02 16:50:55


 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?
I would assume the same way they're running around with heresy era Reaper Autocannons, Power Maces, and Combibolters for Terminators instead of Stormshields, Assault Cannons, or Storm Bolters, and would be why they also don't have things like Razorbacks. Heresy era gear has always been a thing with the Traitor Legions.

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Heresy era gear has always been a thing with the Traitor Legions.


#aninconvenienttruth

It always amazes me how this sometimes gets looked at. "B .. bu ...but ... They're in the WARP! They can't possibly have manufacturing or ANYTHING."

Plus, everyone's always talking about how much we all hate that the main distinction between CSM and regular marines is that CSM "have more spikes", so why not go all the way in and just give them more of that Heresy era gear? It's a solid differentiator that actually makes sense for the fluff ...

I have a Ted Talk on this if anyone's interested. There is also a PowerPoint. PM for details ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Tycho wrote:
Heresy era gear has always been a thing with the Traitor Legions.


#aninconvenienttruth

It always amazes me how this sometimes gets looked at. "B .. bu ...but ... They're in the WARP! They can't possibly have manufacturing or ANYTHING."

Plus, everyone's always talking about how much we all hate that the main distinction between CSM and regular marines is that CSM "have more spikes", so why not go all the way in and just give them more of that Heresy era gear? It's a solid differentiator that actually makes sense for the fluff ...

I have a Ted Talk on this if anyone's interested. There is also a PowerPoint. PM for details ...


It's a damn shame that LSM/CSM are viewed as the same entity by so many when it comes to what units they should have available.
When a CSM player asks for heresy-era stuff (with models already existing for them) like the various sicarans tanks, theres always a pushback that "They shouldnt get it because the gear is so old"
Meanwhile LSM get to play with storm shields, razorbacks, primaris while chaos gets basically nothing unique for itself.
   
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CSM should totally get that stuff and they should be, if the fluff is to be believed, the superior fighting force.
   
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I am personally all for giving 30k era stuff to CSM. It would be great if CSM got to rock tech that the Imperium has forgotten how to manufacture. Get those Volkite and Rad and other weapons and load the CSM up with all that 30k era stuff.

The more different you can make the 2 armies the better for giving them distinct feels and rules.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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If they let us do that we might run som troops that aren't Cultists
   
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Yes, and not only older stuff that has fallen out of use, but stuff that loyalists stopped using because of the machine spirits becoming too vicious and killing friendlies.
What's that compared to chaining up flying rodent gak insane dreadnoughts?
Which is also why our chances of getting these things is just about zilch given that half our heresy era gear just magically lost all corruption.
No more eating stuff to heal, no more fancy special rules in legacies, no more corrupted weapons, be it ammo or weapons, no more friendly fire.
   
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Vaktathi wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
for loyalists, yes. Not for the legions.
Since when? Traitors running around with scads of Heresy-era tanks?
I would assume the same way they're running around with heresy era Reaper Autocannons, Power Maces, and Combibolters for Terminators instead of Stormshields, Assault Cannons, or Storm Bolters, and would be why they also don't have things like Razorbacks. Heresy era gear has always been a thing with the Traitor Legions.

It was actually a theme that gw followed in the 2nd edition chaos codex for the legions. They used older tech, because they were older, frozen in time by their exile within The Eye. Thus Reaper ACs instead of assault cannons, and combi-bolters instead of storm bolters. But of course the argument goes "But they can't maintain the bigger stuff!". Meanwhile they're all tooling around in Heresy era starships with lance batteries instead of macro cannons...

the_scotsman wrote:Anything that makes marines less powerful is a good rule. Chaos marines will, for now, be an unfortunate casualty, but as soon as they get their inevitable coconuts statline boosts for basically no points they'll be in exactly the same boat as loyalists.

Yeah, I knew this was coming. And we haven't even heard when the new csm codex will be released yet.
   
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I own a FW Contemptor/Deredeo/Levi & Sicaran so could have been annoyed at these rules changes.

Overall though, I like them. Brought much more in line with the codex, often refencing that book in fact so if it gets updated these rules will automatically follow suit.

Whilst alot of flavour is lost it also makes it alot easier to explain to opponents and will reduce some feel bad experiences.

The dreads losing the WS/BS, FNP, 4++ is all fine, especially the BS as near autohitting isn't fun. Alot of this is offset by the new reduction in damage and lack of move and fire penalty. Add to that the big point drops and they are perfectly usable.

The only bit I'm a little disgruntled by is the Levi dropping to T8, just seems a little weird for the solid brick it is, I'd happily pay more for it.

Regarding the CP cost - Its a fluff rule, pure and simple. Chapters only have a couple of these and fielding lots in a battle isn't very likely. They are bringing in lots of rules to encourage more fluff accurate force composition. I'd have prefered it to be zero for the first such unit and then 1 for extra extra but they obviously decided they should be rarer than that. Don't look for a game balance reason, I don't think there is one.

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