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Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

8th Edition Intercessor. T4, 2 wounds vs. 8th Edition Plague Marines, T5, 1 wound, 5+++

8th Edition Intercessor. T4, 2 wounds, vs. 9th Edition Plague Marine, T5, 2 wounds, -1 damage

vs. Mortals - Intercessor resilience improved 0%, Plague Marine improved by 33%
vs. Damage 1 - Intercessor resilience improved 0%, Plague Marine improved by 33%
vs. Damage 2 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine improved by 66%
vs. Damage 3 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine decreased by about 4.5%
vs. Damage 4 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine decreased by less than 1%

Lets see.... -1 damage to all of those 2D weapons that people are fielding due to, you know, marines, does nothing to 2W T5 Plague Marines. But people are crying nerf!!!

Y'all crazy.

 bullyboy wrote:
Lets see.... -1 damage to all of those 2D weapons that people are fielding due to, you know, marines, does nothing to 2W T5 Plague Marines. But people are crying nerf!!!

Y'all crazy.

The entire army used to take 1/3 of unsaved wounds from small arms and throw them in the trash. I'd like a trip on whatever you're smoking.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Lets see.... -1 damage to all of those 2D weapons that people are fielding due to, you know, marines, does nothing to 2W T5 Plague Marines. But people are crying nerf!!!

Y'all crazy.

The entire army used to take 1/3 of unsaved wounds from small arms and throw them in the trash. I'd like a trip on whatever you're smoking.

Yes. And if it was an infantry list, it would now take the equivalent of 1/2 of unsaved wounds from small arms and throw it into the trash. Hence it's 33% more resilient.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

8th Edition Intercessor. T4, 2 wounds vs. 8th Edition Plague Marines, T5, 1 wound, 5+++

8th Edition Intercessor. T4, 2 wounds, vs. 9th Edition Plague Marine, T5, 2 wounds, -1 damage

vs. Mortals - Intercessor resilience improved 0%, Plague Marine improved by 33%
vs. Damage 1 - Intercessor resilience improved 0%, Plague Marine improved by 33%
vs. Damage 2 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine improved by 66%
vs. Damage 3 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine decreased by about 4.5%
vs. Damage 4 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine decreased by less than 1%

Yes, if you compare 2W DG to a unit that came into existence with the 2W buff already in place, it sure looks like DG got everything and Intercessors got nothing.
Lovely use of misleading statistics.

No? You're just taking those wounds onto what will undoubtedly be more expensive plague marines.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

8th Edition Intercessor. T4, 2 wounds vs. 8th Edition Plague Marines, T5, 1 wound, 5+++

8th Edition Intercessor. T4, 2 wounds, vs. 9th Edition Plague Marine, T5, 2 wounds, -1 damage

vs. Mortals - Intercessor resilience improved 0%, Plague Marine improved by 33%
vs. Damage 1 - Intercessor resilience improved 0%, Plague Marine improved by 33%
vs. Damage 2 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine improved by 66%
vs. Damage 3 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine decreased by about 4.5%
vs. Damage 4 - Intercessor resilience improved by 0%, Plague Marine decreased by less than 1%

And what has that got to do with the price of a loaf?

We are discussing the change to DR, not the extra wound. To do that you have to compare what a two wound plague marine with 5++ is like compared to a plague marine with -1 damage.
.

My point about being equal to intercessors in a shoot out is that on that basis a plaguemarine should theoretically not cost any more than 20 points now. But we will see when codex is released. I am still expecting 23+ points
2 wounds is standard for all marines now. It's a constant that can be taken out of calculations

Sunny Side Up wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Lets see.... -1 damage to all of those 2D weapons that people are fielding due to, you know, marines, does nothing to 2W T5 Plague Marines. But people are crying nerf!!!

Y'all crazy.

The entire army used to take 1/3 of unsaved wounds from small arms and throw them in the trash. I'd like a trip on whatever you're smoking.

Yes. And if it was an infantry list, it would now take the equivalent of 1/2 of unsaved wounds from small arms and throw it into the trash. Hence it's 33% more resilient.

As would a list of 2W vanilla Marines. Where is the fabled (even in the current article) extra resilience of Death Guard?

Edit: look I get that the new rule is very good against a lot of widespread D2 weapons, but it just feels extremely wrong against enemy chaff.

Doohicky wrote:


We are discussing the change to DR, not the extra wound. To do that you have to compare what a two wound plague marine with 5++ is like compared to a plague marine with -1 damage.

What Codex / Edition had a 2-wound 5+++ Plague Marine?

Why not compare it to a 20 wound, 2+++ Plague Marine, if you wanna compare it to stuff that never even existed and has no data / benchmark for how it ever preformed in the game?

2W T5 3+ -1Damage on an obsec platform (durability matters more than firepower) can't be cheap, that's for sure.

I expect at least 24 points.

I wonder if this stacks on dreadnoughts? Looks like I might have to get a leviathan

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

This is pretty much it. New DR is better against 2 damage, same against 3 damage and worse against everything else.

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I wonder if this stacks on dreadnoughts? Looks like I might have to get a leviathan

You better don't. It's likely that the next Codex: CSM will exclude DG from taking them, and the rules aren't clear-cut right now either.

You are right It's same for D3 I had it marked as better.
So against D2 weapons is the ONLY thing that it's an improvement on.

If it stacks on Dreads then that is great, but I assume that none of our non daemon engine vehicles will get it same as before.

 Jidmah wrote:

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

That doesn't make sense.

If the Plague Marines costs the same as the Intercessor, he should also be T4 and have no DR resilient at all, neither the old, nor the new version.

Both T5 and DR are upgrades over the Intercessor that need significant costs (probably around 2-3 points for each of these buffs)

Spoletta wrote:
2W T5 3+ -1Damage on an obsec platform (durability matters more than firepower) can't be cheap, that's for sure.

I expect at least 24 points.

By what percentage of points did loyalist dreads increase when they got -1 to damage?

Yeah, thought so.

With this change, plague marines are 20 points at best.

 Jidmah wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

This is pretty much it. New DR is better against 2 damage, same against 3 damage and worse against everything else.

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

that solely relies upon GW not overvaluing T5. Which we know they do massively..
So i'd say very likely that they get a larger pricetag

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

That doesn't make sense.

If the Plague Marines costs the same as the Intercessor, he should also be T4 and have no DR resilient at all, neither the old, nor the new version.

Both T5 and DR are upgrades over the Intercessor that need significant costs (probably around 2-3 points for each of these buffs)

I wasn't aware that +6" range, +1" movement, shock assault and AP-1 was worth 0 points. I'll have one of those for every single death guard unit then.

 Jidmah wrote:


This is pretty much it. New DR is better against 2 damage, same against 3 damage and worse against everything else.

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

Wait, why do you think a 2W T5 3+ with -1 dmg profile would cost the same as a 2W T4 3+ profile? Is it just the bolt rifle?

Stick some special weapons on those Plague Marines and the ablative bolters just got even more valuable. It's a fever dream fantasy land where Plague Marines will be the same cost as Intercessors.

Doohicky wrote:

We are discussing the change to DR, not the extra wound. To do that you have to compare what a two wound plague marine with 5++ is like compared to a plague marine with -1 damage.
.

Uuh no. Plague marine has never had 5++. Nor　w2 and 5+++. If you　have played with w2 5+++ then you have　been　cheating. There never has been　version like that. And shows why "testing" based on leaks without every rule is useless. Even if you　knew datasheets and their　rules and costs you couldnt try unless you play without any stratagem besides leaked ones. Can't even use old ones as no idea which　stay. Necrons for example　lost　tons of stratagems

 Jidmah wrote:

I wasn't aware that +6" range, shock assault and AP-1 was worth 0 points. I'll have one of those for every single death guard unit then.

Well, I assume they still have Hateful Assault. And Death Guard apparently get a Doctines-equivalent with their contagion rule seen on Mortarion's datasheet.

Heavy Intercessor is a lot more comparable, he's also T5, also M5 and 3 wounds, which is similar to 2 wounds and -1 damage. Better gun admittedly, but also 28 points.

So 28 points, perhaps minus 1 or 2 points for having a worse gun, would put the Plague Marine at 27 points "reasonable" and 26 points "on the cheap side" (if they lose access to special weapons in the squad).

Is Sunny Side up just a troll? Serious question

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

I wasn't aware that +6" range, shock assault and AP-1 was worth 0 points. I'll have one of those for every single death guard unit then.

Well, I assume they still have Hateful Assault.

Heavy Intercessor is a lot more comparable, he's also T5, also M5 and 3 wounds, which is similar to 2 wounds and -1 damage. Better gun admittedly, but also 28 points.

So 28 points, perhaps minus 1 or 2 points for having a worse gun, would put the Plague Marine at 27 points "reasonable" and 26 points "on the cheap side" (if they lose access to special weapons in the squad).

W3 is better than W2 -1D though, against both D1 weapons & mortal wounds.
Not to mention that there is no way the gun is worth only "1 or 2" points more than a regular bolter. 50% more range, +1S, better AP.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

W3 is better than W2 -1D though, against both D1 weapons & mortal wounds.

Yes, but T5, W2 -1 damage is better than T4, W2, nothing/nada ... which Jidmah said should be priced the same.

I said Heavy Intercessor is a better comparison because more stats are the same, not that they are exactly the same in every stat.

Sure the Plague Marine should be cheaper than a Heavy Intercessor, but certainly more expensive than a regular Intercessor and, by and large, closer to the former than the latter.

From what I am reading..

Plague Marine with +1 wound, -1d and no more 5+++ should cost 9 points more.

But a Space Marine with +1 wound, no -1D and a much better gun is only worth +2 points....


Yeah that makes total sense

Doohicky wrote:
Is Sunny Side up just a troll? Serious question

Probably? 26 points "on the cheap side" is too expensive, for sure. I was thinking something like 23-24?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

W3 is better than W2 -1D though, against both D1 weapons & mortal wounds.

Yes, but T5, W2 -1 damage is better than T4, W2, nothing/nada ... which Jidmah said should be priced the same.

I said Heavy Intercessor is a better comparison because more stats are the same, not that they are exactly the same in every stat.

Sure the Plague Marine should be cheaper than a Heavy Intercessor, but certainly more expensive than a regular Intercessor and, by and large, closer to the former than the latter.

Which would be fine if you didn't only just take the gun into account and say then that they'd be 26 points "on the cheap side".

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, I assume they still have Hateful Assault.

There is no evidence of that, and quite some evidence of the contrary.

And Death Guard apparently get a Doctines-equivalent with their contagion rule seen on Mortarion's datasheet.

Intercessors already have AP-1 without doctrines.

Heavy Intercessor is a lot more comparable, he's also T5, also M5 and 3 wounds, which is similar to 2 wounds and -1 damage. Better gun admittedly, but also 28 points.

No, it's not. The math is in the post above, it's only does anything for plague marines when shot or hit by weapons with exactly Damage 2 and worthless against every other number of damage.

So 28 points, perhaps minus 1 or 2 points for having a worse gun, would put the Plague Marine at 27 points "reasonable" and 26 points "on the cheap side" (if they lose access to special weapons in the squad).

You're a troll. 1-2 points for +1 wound, +1S, +12" range, -1AP? I hope you have no issues allowing your opponent to take shoota boyz with 2 wounds S5 AP-1 30" weapons for 10 points

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

That doesn't make sense.

If the Plague Marines costs the same as the Intercessor, he should also be T4 and have no DR resilient at all, neither the old, nor the new version.

Both T5 and DR are upgrades over the Intercessor that need significant costs (probably around 2-3 points for each of these buffs)

I wasn't aware that +6" range, +1" movement, shock assault and AP-1 was worth 0 points. I'll have one of those for every single death guard unit then.

Differences for a plague marine compared to intercessor:
+1T
-1 damage
-1 movement
1 less ap at range
1 more ap in melee
Native reroll wounds of 1 in melee
6" shorter range on standard gun
Reroll wounds of 1 on grenades
Always count as stationary for rapid fire etc.

On that list I can see plague marines being a round 20, maybe 22 at the most. Depends what the last special rule is really.

I wound add the -1 damage is a massive deal for a 2 wound marine and probably worth far more than either 1ap or 1" movement.

Quasistellar wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Is Sunny Side up just a troll? Serious question

Probably? 26 points "on the cheap side" is too expensive, for sure. I was thinking something like 23-24?

PMs are 18ppm now. And even like that they are universally accepted to be over costed.

Do you think +1 wound is worth 5-6 points? Considering the changes to DR makes them worse in most circumstances and other units gaining a wound went up by 3

Spoletta wrote:
2W T5 3+ -1Damage on an obsec platform (durability matters more than firepower) can't be cheap, that's for sure.

I expect at least 24 points.

I expect about the same as an Intercessor as Death Guard are still fielding an older bolter with 24" range and no AP. Not to mention less movement than an Intercessor.

So 28 points, perhaps minus 1 or 2 points for having a worse gun, would put the Plague Marine at 27 points "reasonable" and 26 points "on the cheap side" (if they lose access to special weapons in the squad).

Now that's crazy talk..