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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Which would be fine if you didn't only just take the gun into account and say then that they'd be 26 points "on the cheap side".

Well, Special Weapons access costs more (hence why Vanguard Vets, Celestians, etc.. are more expensive base), doubly so when paired with ObSec (unless Plague Marines are moved to Elite for some reason, which I doubt).

Also a worse basic gun should deduct a point or so, but not so many that people just spam a model with this kind of resilience for the wounds/board-presence alone and simply do the damage elsewhere.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yes, but T5, W2 -1 damage is better than T4, W2, nothing/nada ... which Jidmah said should be priced the same.

Only if you willfully ignore the weapons and movement speed of intercessors.

Sure the Plague Marine should be cheaper than a Heavy Intercessor, but certainly more expensive than a regular Intercessor and, by and large, closer to the former than the latter.

In that case, Intercessors should lose 1 movement speed, only have access to stock bolters and lose shock assault.

 Jidmah wrote:

In that case, Intercessors should lose 1 movement speed, only have access to stock bolters and lose shock assault.

Again, Shock Assault and Hateful Assault are literally the same rule. Both have it.

And if Intercessors go to T5, -1 damage, sure.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Also a worse basic gun should deduct a point or so, but not so many that people just spam a model with this kind of resilience for the wounds/board-presence alone and simply do the damage elsewhere.

So it's only ok if loyalists can do that?

Do you not understand how -1 to damage works on 2W models?

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Also a worse basic gun should deduct a point or so, but not so many that people just spam a model with this kind of resilience for the wounds/board-presence alone and simply do the damage elsewhere.

So it's only ok if loyalists can do that?

Do you not understand how -1 to damage works on 2W models?

let it rest, it's sunny, there's no point in discussion with him

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

That doesn't make sense.

If the Plague Marines costs the same as the Intercessor, he should also be T4 and have no DR resilient at all, neither the old, nor the new version.

Both T5 and DR are upgrades over the Intercessor that need significant costs (probably around 2-3 points for each of these buffs)

I wasn't aware that +6" range, +1" movement, shock assault and AP-1 was worth 0 points. I'll have one of those for every single death guard unit then.

Differences for a plague marine compared to intercessor:
+1T
-1 damage
-1 movement
1 less ap at range
1 more ap in melee
Native reroll wounds of 1 in melee
6" shorter range on standard gun
Reroll wounds of 1 on grenades
Always count as stationary for rapid fire etc.

On that list I can see plague marines being a round 20, maybe 22 at the most. Depends what the last special rule is really.

I wound add the -1 damage is a massive deal for a 2 wound marine and probably worth far more than either 1ap or 1" movement.

I'd sure hope you're right, but I just don't think GW would put them that low. I think 22 is the lowest we could possibly hope.

Remember--this is all in a vacuum without knowing anything about how they can be buffed in the new codex with stratagems, relics, warlord traits, other character auras, etc etc. Defensive buffs have a way of stacking that can get pretty crazy depending on what they are (remember IH Levi pre-nerf?).

 Jidmah wrote:


Do you not understand how -1 to damage works on 2W models?

it works in a way that 2W models with -1 damage are better than 2W models without -1 damage. Seems simple.

I wound add the -1 damage is a massive deal for a 2 wound marine and probably worth far more than either 1ap or 1" movement.

It depends entirely on what's shooting at it.

Which is the fundamental problem. Often, its worth nothing at all.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Again, Shock Assault and Hateful Assault are literally the same rule. Both have it.

Please provide any evidence that Hateful Assault is a thing for any DG unit. Mortarion clearly doesn't have it, and the +1 attack across the board is a clear indicator that it has gone away.
Which means Intercessors have +1 attack in most fights over plague marines.

And if Intercessors go to T5, -1 damage, sure.

At 27 points, of course.

 Jidmah wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

This is pretty much it. New DR is better against 2 damage, same against 3 damage and worse against everything else.

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I wonder if this stacks on dreadnoughts? Looks like I might have to get a leviathan

You better don't. It's likely that the next Codex: CSM will exclude DG from taking them, and the rules aren't clear-cut right now either.

I think the best case is 23 points, worst case is 26. Because GW won't see better guns on Inties or better global weapon buffs, just T5. Which contrasts so well with 28point heavy intercessors at T5, 3W, and waaaaaay better shooting.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Do you not understand how -1 to damage works on 2W models?

it works in a way that 2W models with -1 damage are better than 2W models without -1 damage. Seems simple.

Ah, so you don't. I should have known from your posts.

Yeah-new DR is good against D2 weapons, or Dd3/Dd6 weapons that roll a 2. (At least when dealing with Plague Marines.)

Against D1, does literally nothing.
Against D3+, does something, but in effect nothing.

It might be a bit better for HQ models and other guys with plenty of wounds, but it's probably not as good as a 5+ FNP.

Great a nerf to our durability, the only area in which I wanted absolutely no nerfs. If I wanted to play killy dudes in power armor there were already 12 other factions to choose from. Obviously we haven´t seen the rest of the codex, maybe it isn't all bad, but my positivity just plummeted and I'm back to being suspicious of what they are going to do to us.

should've just brought back the all or nothing FNP that was fastrollable from earlier editions than this nonsense.

Please stop comparing to intercessors as well, a tac marine is the better comparison. It's got the same base gun, 1 less attack, no -1 damage, no ap in melee or reroll wounds of 1 in melee baked in nor t5. The only advantage they have is +1" movement at 18 points, when you look at those, it's hard to say 20 points is enough.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Again, Shock Assault and Hateful Assault are literally the same rule. Both have it.

Please provide any evidence that Hateful Assault is a thing for any DG unit. Mortarion clearly doesn't have it, and the +1 attack across the board is a clear indicator that it has gone away.
Which means Intercessors have +1 attack in most fights over plague marines.

I am 100% positive that "Contagions of Nurgle" is the DG version of angels of death. Your version of shock assault, doctrines, ATSKNF, and bolter drill will all be lumped together under that rule. That is how loyalist marines work.

 Castozor wrote:
Great a nerf to our durability, the only area in which I wanted absolutely no nerfs. If I wanted to play killy dudes in power armor there were already 12 other factions to choose from. Obviously we haven´t seen the rest of the codex, maybe it isn't all bad, but my positivity just plummeted and I'm back to being suspicious of what they are going to do to us.

You are 33% more durable than before vs dam1. More durable than before vs dam2. Only lose vs mw and dam3+ guns.

tneva82 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
Great a nerf to our durability, the only area in which I wanted absolutely no nerfs. If I wanted to play killy dudes in power armor there were already 12 other factions to choose from. Obviously we haven´t seen the rest of the codex, maybe it isn't all bad, but my positivity just plummeted and I'm back to being suspicious of what they are going to do to us.

You are 33% more durable than before vs dam1. More durable than before vs dam2. Only lose vs mw and dam3+ guns.

Wait, how are they more durable against D1? And they're tied against D3 so only weaker to D4+.

Dudeface wrote:
Please stop comparing to intercessors as well, a tac marine is the better comparison. It's got the same base gun, 1 less attack, no -1 damage, no ap in melee or reroll wounds of 1 in melee baked in nor t5. The only advantage they have is +1" movement at 18 points, when you look at those, it's hard to say 20 points is enough.

No one's going to compare to Tac marines because Tac marines don't compare well inside their own goddamn codex. For two points more you get way better guns, an extra attack, and better stratagem access. Tacs are on their way to the dustbin, presumably.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
I am 100% positive that "Contagions of Nurgle" is the DG version of angels of death. Your version of shock assault, doctrines, ATSKNF, and bolter drill will all be lumped together under that rule. That is how loyalist marines work.

From Mortarion's datasheet we know that Contagions of Nurgle is a turn-based effect for DG models.

Audustum wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
Great a nerf to our durability, the only area in which I wanted absolutely no nerfs. If I wanted to play killy dudes in power armor there were already 12 other factions to choose from. Obviously we haven´t seen the rest of the codex, maybe it isn't all bad, but my positivity just plummeted and I'm back to being suspicious of what they are going to do to us.

You are 33% more durable than before vs dam1. More durable than before vs dam2. Only lose vs mw and dam3+ guns.

Wait, how are they more durable against D1? And they're tied against D3 so only weaker to D4+.

Did you forget pm are to be gaining extra wound? You don't compare one change only and forget rest.you　compare old version(t5, w1, 3+/5+++) vs new one(t5, w2, 3+/-1damage).

You can't　compare old dr with 2 wounds and claim　it's nerf as
Only way to play w2 5+++ was cheating.

It's like saying "we lost-1T, we got nerfed"and forget point　cosd dropped to 1/10...

You compare new to old, not　new to imaginary version.

Of course until we know point costs as bare minimum,stratagems and other buffs preferably hard to say is it buff or nerf. But for now premature to say it's nerf when new pm is tougher than old vs dam1 and dam2 hurting vs d3(no i's" not equal. Dam3 kills new flat out. It did not kill old one 100% times). So the more dam3+ you face the worse of you are　but at least for　now dam1-2 is majority)

Real ? Is point cost

tneva82 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
Great a nerf to our durability, the only area in which I wanted absolutely no nerfs. If I wanted to play killy dudes in power armor there were already 12 other factions to choose from. Obviously we haven´t seen the rest of the codex, maybe it isn't all bad, but my positivity just plummeted and I'm back to being suspicious of what they are going to do to us.

You are 33% more durable than before vs dam1. More durable than before vs dam2. Only lose vs mw and dam3+ guns.

But it does nothing vs D1? So we only gain vs D2, which is common but this still is a nerf overall. Especially for our vehicles.
Edit: ah I see you think the extra wound we gained also counts, lol. DR itself is strictly worse no matter how you try to spin it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
I am 100% positive that "Contagions of Nurgle" is the DG version of angels of death. Your version of shock assault, doctrines, ATSKNF, and bolter drill will all be lumped together under that rule. That is how loyalist marines work.

From Mortarion's datasheet we know that Contagions of Nurgle is a turn-based effect for DG models.

AKA doctrines. It could do more than that you know.

It may be a grab bag of things that activate on turn one and with buffs on turns thereafter.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Please stop comparing to intercessors as well, a tac marine is the better comparison. It's got the same base gun, 1 less attack, no -1 damage, no ap in melee or reroll wounds of 1 in melee baked in nor t5. The only advantage they have is +1" movement at 18 points, when you look at those, it's hard to say 20 points is enough.

No one's going to compare to Tac marines because Tac marines don't compare well inside their own goddamn codex. For two points more you get way better guns, an extra attack, and better stratagem access. Tacs are on their way to the dustbin, presumably.

Frankly I don't care, they're the comparable basis, you can compare them to a 14 point chaos marine if you like, the point is they're obviously not plague intercessors.

Dudeface wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Please stop comparing to intercessors as well, a tac marine is the better comparison. It's got the same base gun, 1 less attack, no -1 damage, no ap in melee or reroll wounds of 1 in melee baked in nor t5. The only advantage they have is +1" movement at 18 points, when you look at those, it's hard to say 20 points is enough.

No one's going to compare to Tac marines because Tac marines don't compare well inside their own goddamn codex. For two points more you get way better guns, an extra attack, and better stratagem access. Tacs are on their way to the dustbin, presumably.

Frankly I don't care

And yet, you post

tneva82 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
Great a nerf to our durability, the only area in which I wanted absolutely no nerfs. If I wanted to play killy dudes in power armor there were already 12 other factions to choose from. Obviously we haven´t seen the rest of the codex, maybe it isn't all bad, but my positivity just plummeted and I'm back to being suspicious of what they are going to do to us.

You are 33% more durable than before vs dam1. More durable than before vs dam2. Only lose vs mw and dam3+ guns.

Wait, how are they more durable against D1? And they're tied against D3 so only weaker to D4+.

Did you forget pm are to be gaining extra wound? You don't compare one change only and forget rest.you　compare old version(t5, w1, 3+/5+++) vs new one(t5, w2, 3+/-1damage).

You can't　compare old dr with 2 wounds and claim　it's nerf as
Only way to play w2 5+++ was cheating.

It's like saying "we lost-1T, we got nerfed"and forget point　cosd dropped to 1/10...

You compare new to old, not　new to imaginary version.

Of course until we know point costs as bare minimum,stratagems and other buffs preferably hard to say is it buff or nerf. But for now premature to say it's nerf when new pm is tougher than old vs dam1 and dam2 hurting vs d3(no i's" not equal. Dam3 kills new flat out. It did not kill old one 100% times). So the more dam3+ you face the worse of you are　but at least for　now dam1-2 is majority)

Real ? Is point cost

Oh the extra wound. I was just doing a straight '-1 damage' vs. '5+++'.

Also, I didn't say they were nerfed. Go back like just 2 pages. You just confused me for a second here.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Please stop comparing to intercessors as well, a tac marine is the better comparison. It's got the same base gun, 1 less attack, no -1 damage, no ap in melee or reroll wounds of 1 in melee baked in nor t5. The only advantage they have is +1" movement at 18 points, when you look at those, it's hard to say 20 points is enough.

No one's going to compare to Tac marines because Tac marines don't compare well inside their own goddamn codex. For two points more you get way better guns, an extra attack, and better stratagem access. Tacs are on their way to the dustbin, presumably.

Frankly I don't care

And yet, you post

I care about the topic, I don't care for the comparison to an intercessor.

If you want some fun let's compare them point for point against some firewarriors or other pointless things.

2 wound 5++ never existed, they are flat better than they were and no they're not intercessors.

Dudeface wrote:
I care about the topic, I don't care for the comparison to an intercessor.

If you want some fun let's compare them point for point against some firewarriors or other pointless things.

2 wound 5++ never existed, they are flat better than they were and no they're not intercessors.

They are flat worse than what they were if GW puts a 24-25 point pricetag on them. Which is what people are discussing.

Oh, and they aren't tactical marines either.

Dudeface wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Please stop comparing to intercessors as well, a tac marine is the better comparison. It's got the same base gun, 1 less attack, no -1 damage, no ap in melee or reroll wounds of 1 in melee baked in nor t5. The only advantage they have is +1" movement at 18 points, when you look at those, it's hard to say 20 points is enough.

No one's going to compare to Tac marines because Tac marines don't compare well inside their own goddamn codex. For two points more you get way better guns, an extra attack, and better stratagem access. Tacs are on their way to the dustbin, presumably.

Frankly I don't care, they're the comparable basis, you can compare them to a 14 point chaos marine if you like, the point is they're obviously not plague intercessors.

Even assuming that marines are overcosted by 1 point, that comparison still brings us to a cost of 23 points.

+1 T is at the very least a 3 point stat, going from T4 to T5 is a huge step.
-1 damage applies in this case only to D2 weapons, so it is worth only a couple of points.
-1Ap and rr1 to wound in melee is easily another point if not 2.
Better weapon selection is kind of a wash with -1 move.
Better grandes counts for nothing.

This is assuming that hateful assault is not a thing, in which case they also have 1 more attack for 2 points more.