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 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so?

Let's say you have 12 wounds.

You take 12 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4 of those, leaving you with 4 wounds.
You take 4 more damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/3 of those, leaving you with 4/3 wounds.
You take 4/3 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/9 of those.

Continue ad nauseum, and the limit approaches 18-for a 50% increase.

For quick calculation, take the reciprocal of the odds of FAILING a FNP roll. 2/3 is your odds of failure, so 3/2 is your effective wound multiplier.

 Oaka wrote:
Sure, DG feel like they lost something when they come up against other marines, but they gained a wound against every other army that didn't. And armies tailored to deal D2 against marines will have increased difficulty against DG.

I'll also come out with the wild and dangerous opinion that Firstborn Marines needed more of a durability buff more than Death Guard did. Plague Marines at 18pts were mediocre. Tacticals at 15pts were awful. I don't think Plague Marines need much of a points hike, but Tacticals are now a good buy at 18ppm and Plague Marines are pretty much the same but tougher. At 20pts they'd be slightly slower and less damaging than Intercessors but much harder to kill, which seems about right.

Also, with all Marines now at W2, D2 weapons are more valuable than ever... And oh look, more weapons are becoming D2, starting with Heavy Bolters. All us Guard players are loading up on Heavy Bolters now to kill Marines. Those Heavy Bolters are now just 38% as effective against the new Plague Marines as they are against Intercessors. That is to say, Plague Marines are now nearly three times harder to kill with the new premier Marine-killing gun. That's a big deal.

What remains to be seen is how prevalent D3 weapons become as W3 Gravis and Terminators start to become popular. If there's D3 all over the place then the new DR is significantly weaker. But good lord the knee-jerking in this thread is immense.

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so? If you have 1 wound and you need to pass 1 5+++ to stay alive, you have a 33% of succeeding?

Assess from the perspective of the attacker. For every three wounds, two will fail DR and one will succeed, so you need to inflict 50% more wounds than you would otherwise. 1 wound / 0.67 chance for that wound to kill = 1.5 wounds needed, on average, to kill, or a 50% increase over the baseline.

Doohicky wrote:
I really don't get all these calls for such high points values.

That bit of extra toughness is great, but it's not as good as people seem to think.

Let's just look at PMs now. In my opinion they are already overcosted. They are rarely used in any sort of number for that reason.

Increasing points by so much has to also take into account that their firepower is being reduced per point by quite a lot.

At 24ppm they are being placed between an intercessor and heavy intercessor points wise and quite frankly they are no where near that level of good.

I think they are on par with Intercessors now but not Heavy Intercessors. Assuming they keep Hateful Assault, which I dont think theylll lose, they are better than Intercessors in melee combat which is where Plague Marines really shine, and their new Contagions probably buff this too. Most of your standard troops will be wounding PMs on 5s with Powerfists on 3s and only doing 1 damage a swing. White Scars will loose their extra 1 damage with your normal damage 1 weapons like Chainswords and Combat Knives.

Do Plague Marines ever do damage with Bolters? Pretty sure this is mirrored everywhere with CSM as well. They arent gonna win a fire fight with anyone, but they are gonna stick around longer when it matters. And thats what matters. You could have the worst gun either but if your still alive on a point, its yours. Stratagems and abilities is what will make or break them. This is just the tip of the iceberg, but it would be a safe bet to estimate that they are worth more than Intercessors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
Sure, DG feel like they lost something when they come up against other marines, but they gained a wound against every other army that didn't. And armies tailored to deal D2 against marines will have increased difficulty against DG.

I'll also come out with the wild and dangerous opinion that Firstborn Marines needed more of a durability buff more than Death Guard did. Plague Marines at 18pts were mediocre. Tacticals at 15pts were awful. I don't think Plague Marines need much of a points hike, but Tacticals are now a good buy at 18ppm and Plague Marines are pretty much the same but tougher. At 20pts they'd be slightly slower and less damaging than Intercessors but much harder to kill, which seems about right.

Also, with all Marines now at W2, D2 weapons are more valuable than ever... And oh look, more weapons are becoming D2, starting with Heavy Bolters. All us Guard players are loading up on Heavy Bolters now to kill Marines. Those Heavy Bolters are now just 38% as effective against the new Plague Marines as they are against Intercessors. That is to say, Plague Marines are now nearly three times harder to kill with the new premier Marine-killing gun. That's a big deal.

What remains to be seen is how prevalent D3 weapons become as W3 Gravis and Terminators start to become popular. If there's D3 all over the place then the new DR is significantly weaker. But good lord the knee-jerking in this thread is immense.

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so? If you have 1 wound and you need to pass 1 5+++ to stay alive, you have a 33% of succeeding?

Assess from the perspective of the attacker. For every three wounds, two will fail DR and one will succeed, so you need to inflict 50% more wounds than you would otherwise. 1 wound / 0.67 chance for that wound to kill = 1.5 wounds needed, on average, to kill, or a 50% increase over the baseline.

Wouldnt the better approach be to make weapons less deadly? More and more buffs to durability start to be felt in your standard gun. Lasguns, autoguns, shootas, bolters, etc. These are all weapons that remain unchanged but Marines get more durable. Then new weapons come out to deal with Marines but the other races dont have it so then things like Heavy Intercessors become a thing to be even more durable to things that kill Marines. The game just keeps vamping up when it could do with a cool down on the arms race. Like I dont believe Heavy Bolters should be damage 2 but they are, it closes the gap on other weapons like Autocannons whose now sole benfit over a Heavy Bolter is str7.

I completely agree that in CC plaguemarines really shine and I do think they are great there. And I agree it looks like they are getting buffed in that regard

But they are slow and with a points increase their ranged damage is going down. Personally, I don't think the extra wound makes up for it enough to significantly increase their points.

For me 21pts would be a good value with what we are seeing so far.

HOWEVER, for all we know the contagions could be great and make them better.
Maybe early round ones make them harder to hit or have an old version of DR?

If it's just a buff that affects the enemy close by then that will be a mistake in my opinion

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
+1 T is at the very least a 3 point stat, going from T4 to T5 is a huge step.

Hilarious. Got anything to back that up?

Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Seemingly the T5, 2W, 3+ save are the defence against small arms fire for PW now which in general is better than many armies get for their soldiers (even if its worse from where they came from). I'd say it just depends on the cost.

My actual biggest concern with this change is for the larger models like Mortation, PBC etc that are all now significantly weaker (pending PP, army buffs and surgeon abilities).

I'm expecting the poxwalkers to still have a 5+ FNP. It's kind of been their thing for a long while.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
So T5 should be a free upgrade to troops?

Yes, because you, just like the other 10 guys posting the exact same thing before you also consider +6" range, AP-1 and +1" movement as free upgrades as well.

Spoletta wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
+1 T is at the very least a 3 point stat, going from T4 to T5 is a huge step.

Hilarious. Got anything to back that up?

Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

I can't remember what the increase on a tesla immortal was but that would give a good starting point.

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so? If you have 1 wound and you need to pass 1 5+++ to stay alive, you have a 33% of succeeding? So the 3rd Plague Marine in the squad would surive the 1 damage attack if 3 failed their armour saves. Now they dont have to bank on rolling a 5+++ to pass the 1 damage as the model instead has 2 wounds. Ive seen it way too much that 5+++ either roll hot or not, whole 10 man squads failing to make a single DR save. Ive also seen when they make pretty much all of them and both cases it wasnt fun for someone and just wasted time rolling.

2 wounds ignoring 1 damage has existed before with Aberrants and they werent blessed with a 3+ save or toughness 5. I think this version of DR is fine for the infantry (D3 and above should vapourise anything man sized with the exception of daemonically inbued Possessed and exceptionally durable Blightlords/Deathshroud. Where DR fails is on vehicles which it looks like everyone is agreeing with. Great vs those D2/3 shots coming in but not so much for those 4+ that come through. You could probably hope that a Mephytic Blight Hauler could survive 2 shots from a Mehnir, now it isnt even possible if they both go through the invun.

Basically you have to take into account the wound actually being saved by the FNP, so it becomes roughly 1.5. HOWEVER, the strict wound bump means no variations mathematically, so the consistency itself is actually a buff still.

 Jidmah wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
So T5 should be a free upgrade to troops?

Yes, because you, just like the other 10 guys posting the exact same thing before you also consider +6" range, AP-1 and +1" movement as free upgrades as well.

Again, see tactical marines.

Dudeface wrote:
The issue is a large amount of these claims are also toy throwing "stupid gw I didn't get what I wanted they should all be free now because my plague marines only require 33% more bolter rounds to kill, render d2 almost pointless and d3+ didn't matter anyway".

If it was "oh it sucks my daemon engines might take a couple more wounds a turn" fair, but it's actually more a whinefest they're not point for point better than Intercessors, when we don't have a points value.

The vast amount of arguments on the other side is "extra wounds are 3 points for tacticals and should be 8 points for plague marines because T5".

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The issue is a large amount of these claims are also toy throwing "stupid gw I didn't get what I wanted they should all be free now because my plague marines only require 33% more bolter rounds to kill, render d2 almost pointless and d3+ didn't matter anyway".

If it was "oh it sucks my daemon engines might take a couple more wounds a turn" fair, but it's actually more a whinefest they're not point for point better than Intercessors, when we don't have a points value.

The vast amount of arguments on the other side is "extra wounds are 3 points for tacticals and should be 8 points for plague marines because T5".

T5 AND keeping the 5+++, if you're going to incessantly whine might as well keep the story straight.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The issue is a large amount of these claims are also toy throwing "stupid gw I didn't get what I wanted they should all be free now because my plague marines only require 33% more bolter rounds to kill, render d2 almost pointless and d3+ didn't matter anyway".

If it was "oh it sucks my daemon engines might take a couple more wounds a turn" fair, but it's actually more a whinefest they're not point for point better than Intercessors, when we don't have a points value.

The vast amount of arguments on the other side is "extra wounds are 3 points for tacticals and should be 8 points for plague marines because T5".

They should be more than 3 points but its dishonest to pretend the extra wound is the only buff.

 catbarf wrote:

Voss wrote:
Because that's the statline for marines now. It does NOT matter that it never existed 'before,' its the norm for the edition in which this codex is happening. The new normal is two wound marines, coupling that with taking 5+++ away is a nerf.

Calling an objective buff a nerf, just because you didn't get buffed as much on the whole as another army, seems really petty.

What? At least try to have a conversation with go to personal attacks and accusations of 'pettiness.' I'm not making any sort of comparison to 'another army.'
We've known for months that DG were going to be brought in line with the 2W marine reality. That's a global thing for 9th edition when the rules update finally gets 'finished.' That isn't a 'buff,' that's just the baseline for marines in 9th edition.

Plague Marines are now actually significantly harder to kill than Intercessors, rather than being roughly comparable. This is where they should have been all along. Take a step back, stop comparing to the W2/5+++ profile that never existed, stop trying to be envious of W1 Marines, and look at it objectively. You're now Marines that are T5 and reduce incoming damage by 1. That is not a bad place for Plague Marines to be, and it's significantly better than they were.

I'm doing none of those things.
Intercessors are not a comparison point for Plague Marines- the appropriate comparison, if you're keen to make it, is tacticals, or even better, Grey Hunters. Bolter+chainsword vs bolter +plagueknife, +2 specials.
No one is being envious of 1W _anything_, I don't even understand what that's about.

Plague marines are still T5 (which isn't a change), but instead of a global 5+++, they have a circumstantial ability that only works on a subset of weapons. If it isn't D2, or a 33% chance on d3 or a 16% chance on a d6 weapon, DR does nothing at all. That's a nerf.
Its a matter of game design- mechanics that only work against a limited number of things are worse than mechanics that apply universally. This is especially true in cases like this where it entirely depends on what decisions your opponent makes during list building, which isn't something you can influence or mitigate. There is no tactical or strategic maneuver on the table that counters 'I'll just take guns that are mathematically more effective against this particular snippet of rules exceptionalism.'

Again, W2 is the normal for marines in 9th edition. That isn't a _Death Guard_ buff, that's a universal change (implemented on a time delay, because GW is bad at this). It doesn't factor into anything, except (and sadly we still don't know this) if there is an accompanying points increase that will definitely make DG worse.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so?

Let's say you have 12 wounds.

You take 12 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4 of those, leaving you with 4 wounds.
You take 4 more damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/3 of those, leaving you with 4/3 wounds.
You take 4/3 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/9 of those.

Continue ad nauseum, and the limit approaches 18-for a 50% increase.

For quick calculation, take the reciprocal of the odds of FAILING a FNP roll. 2/3 is your odds of failure, so 3/2 is your effective wound multiplier.

How does this affect 1 wound models though? You take 12 damage, you save 4 guys. You didnt save half of the damage but instead a third. You might need 4 more damage to kill the next 3 but those that died didnt pass half of the damage. Squad wise sure this works but on an individual basis no. You have a 6 man squad and I pass you 10 individual damage 1 saves you need to pass off on a 5++. You pass 3. 7 die. Great for multiwound models like your 12 wound scenario but it doesnt reflect my 1 wound Plague Marines.

That 2 damage would kill your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. That 1 damage had a pretty good chance to gibb your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. The New DR in conjunction with the extra wound is better for the infantry, worse for the vehicles. There just isnt that many D3 weapons out there that youd want to target PMs with.

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so?

Let's say you have 12 wounds.

You take 12 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4 of those, leaving you with 4 wounds.
You take 4 more damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/3 of those, leaving you with 4/3 wounds.
You take 4/3 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/9 of those.

Continue ad nauseum, and the limit approaches 18-for a 50% increase.

For quick calculation, take the reciprocal of the odds of FAILING a FNP roll. 2/3 is your odds of failure, so 3/2 is your effective wound multiplier.

How does this affect 1 wound models though? You take 12 damage, you save 4 guys. You didnt save half of the damage but instead a third. You might need 4 more damage to kill the next 3 but those that died didnt pass half of the damage. Squad wise sure this works but on an individual basis no. You have a 6 man squad and I pass you 10 individual damage 1 saves you need to pass off on a 5++. You pass 3. 7 die. Great for multiwound models like your 12 wound scenario but it doesnt reflect my 1 wound Plague Marines.

That 2 damage would kill your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. That 1 damage had a pretty good chance to gibb your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. The New DR in conjunction with the extra wound is better for the infantry, worse for the vehicles. There just isnt that many D3 weapons out there that youd want to target PMs with.

To kill six W1 Plague Marines with a 5++, you'd need to do an average of nine unsaved D1 attacks.

If you do exactly six, you'll have two left on average. Those two still have their 5+++, so it takes an average of three more unsaved D1 wounds to kill them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

The ability to take heavy weapons.
-1 AP on their Bolters Turn 2 and sometimes 3.
Whatever their Chapter Tactic and Super Doctrine gives them, potentially including a 6+++.

Less dice rolling whilst still being a good resilient mechanic. All for it.

DG are also better at shooting on the move and less likely to lose models to morale. You cannot look at just one rule, look at the whole picture.

They just need to be played different now.

I think we should wait and see what the Contagions of Nurgle are and what they do. They might provide a new method of adding FnP back to the army.

Also, there is a keyword on Mortarion's datasheet I don't recognize; BUBONIC ASTARTES. Maybe this keyword will be used alongside the Contagions of Nurgle and/or detachment abilities to grant FnP.

Dudeface wrote:
I can't remember what the increase on a tesla immortal was but that would give a good starting point.

The increase was -1 point for gauss, +1 point for tesla.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Less dice rolling whilst still being a good resilient mechanic. All for it.

DG are also better at shooting on the move and less likely to lose models to morale. You cannot look at just one rule, look at the whole picture.

They just need to be played different now.

Oh I did, and we are now generic killy dudes in power armor like the rest. I play this army for it's durability, taking that away and going: but look at all these nice offensive buffs! does nothing for me. If they wanted less dice rolling it would have been nice of them to take it away from IH too, but I guess SM privilege is a real thing now.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

The ability to take heavy weapons.

This, in addition to a having access to much wider array of weapons.
+1" movement is just as valuable a +1T already.

-1 AP on their Bolters Turn 2 and sometimes 3.
Whatever their Chapter Tactic and Super Doctrine gives them, potentially including a 6+++.

To be fair, DG is likely to get similar things through plague fleets and the rule which will be revealed tomorrow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
Also, there is a keyword I don't recognize; BUBONIC ASTARTES. Maybe this keyword will be used alongside the Contagions of Nurgle and/or detachment abilities.

We've already seen it in the FW book. It's likely to prevent cross-faction synergy with things like warptime, similar to the Eldar Doom nerf. Which is only fair tbh.

Voss wrote:What? At least try to have a conversation with go to personal attacks and accusations of 'pettiness.' I'm not making any sort of comparison to 'another army.'

Yes, you are. You're comparing to loyalist Marines (or CSM) going from W1 to W2. If Firstborn didn't exist and Plague Marines, in a vacuum, were going from W1 to W2 along with these DR changes, that would be rightfully recognized as a net buff.

They're getting buffed compared to their current statline. That's the fact of it. The DR rule is getting slightly nerfed; Plague Marines are getting substantial other buffs that more than compensate. As a whole, Plague Marines are harder to kill than they were. That's a buff. Anyone saying Plague Marines got nerfed because they didn't get buffed as much as Tacticals is wrong.

 Castozor wrote:
I play this army for it's durability, taking that away

You get an extra point of toughness on your basic Marines, and universally reduce all incoming damage by 1. Your durability has increased on your basic infantry, and is sometimes better and sometimes worse for your vehicles, and we have no idea what is happening to W1 models or stratagems/characters that previously buffed DR.

This is ridiculous.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

The ability to take heavy weapons.
-1 AP on their Bolters Turn 2 and sometimes 3.
Whatever their Chapter Tactic and Super Doctrine gives them, potentially including a 6+++.

If we leave out the ap buff since we know dg will be getting a different turn based mechanic, here is a novelty for you, if your chapter tactic was -1 damage, +1 t & a, extra ap on melee with reroll wounds of 1 and always count as stationary, but all you gave up were heavy weapons and 1" movement, would that not be the most over powered chapter tactic?

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

The ability to take heavy weapons.
-1 AP on their Bolters Turn 2 and sometimes 3.
Whatever their Chapter Tactic and Super Doctrine gives them, potentially including a 6+++.

If we leave out the ap buff since we know dg will be getting a different turn based mechanic, here is a novelty for you, if your chapter tactic was -1 damage, +1 t & a, extra ap on melee with reroll wounds of 1 and always count as stationary, but all you gave up were heavy weapons and 1" movement, would that not be the most over powered chapter tactic?

How many points is a Plague Marine, then? Because if they were the same points, sure. But what are the odds of that?

 catbarf wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I play this army for it's durability, taking that away

You get an extra point of toughness on your basic Marines, and universally reduce all incoming damage by 1. Your durability has increased on your basic infantry, and is sometimes better and sometimes worse for your vehicles, and we have no idea what is happening to W1 models or stratagems/characters that previously buffed DR.

This is ridiculous.

No it hasn't, it's only better against D2 and 2 wounds on marines was a given. Something I'm assuming we pay the points for too. DR as a rule was hard gutted. It's not sometimes worse, it's always worse except specifically against D2 were it's better and D3 were it's a wash.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Could prepare a sound argumentation but this point already tells me that you are not interested in the least to have a discussion, you are just here to whine.

Try me. If anything, people accuse me of discussing things too much.

Seriously, if you really think that T4 to T5 isn't worth the jump from 17 to 20 points on a 2W infantry model, then whatever argumentation used will just be thrown to the wind.

Your math adds up to 24, not 20 AND ignores or hand-waves all advantages tacticals have over plague marines.

What advantage does a tactical marine have beyond 1" of movement?

The ability to take heavy weapons.
-1 AP on their Bolters Turn 2 and sometimes 3.
Whatever their Chapter Tactic and Super Doctrine gives them, potentially including a 6+++.

If we leave out the ap buff since we know dg will be getting a different turn based mechanic, here is a novelty for you, if your chapter tactic was -1 damage, +1 t & a, extra ap on melee with reroll wounds of 1 and always count as stationary, but all you gave up were heavy weapons and 1" movement, would that not be the most over powered chapter tactic?

How many points is a Plague Marine, then? Because if they were the same points, sure. But what are the odds of that?

Well then we understand they must be more than 18 points, 10% takes them to 20 but I'm not sure they're only 10% better, I'm sitting at 22 personally but I can see 20-22 being the range they fall in.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so?

Let's say you have 12 wounds.

You take 12 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4 of those, leaving you with 4 wounds.
You take 4 more damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/3 of those, leaving you with 4/3 wounds.
You take 4/3 damage. FNP 5+ saves 4/9 of those.

Continue ad nauseum, and the limit approaches 18-for a 50% increase.

For quick calculation, take the reciprocal of the odds of FAILING a FNP roll. 2/3 is your odds of failure, so 3/2 is your effective wound multiplier.

How does this affect 1 wound models though? You take 12 damage, you save 4 guys. You didnt save half of the damage but instead a third. You might need 4 more damage to kill the next 3 but those that died didnt pass half of the damage. Squad wise sure this works but on an individual basis no. You have a 6 man squad and I pass you 10 individual damage 1 saves you need to pass off on a 5++. You pass 3. 7 die. Great for multiwound models like your 12 wound scenario but it doesnt reflect my 1 wound Plague Marines.

That 2 damage would kill your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. That 1 damage had a pretty good chance to gibb your 1 wound Plague Marine, it now doesnt. The New DR in conjunction with the extra wound is better for the infantry, worse for the vehicles. There just isnt that many D3 weapons out there that youd want to target PMs with.

To kill six W1 Plague Marines with a 5++, you'd need to do an average of nine unsaved D1 attacks.

If you do exactly six, you'll have two left on average. Those two still have their 5+++, so it takes an average of three more unsaved D1 wounds to kill them.

So this only comes into effect when you roll poorly or are firing chip damage at them? Its not hard to actually wound Plague Marines, it just got silly when they had the 5++ from the relic and the 5+++ on top of that. If anything thats the opponents fault for chipping away instead of having supremacy units either in shooting or melee. If I charge 5 BA Vanguard Vets all with Lightning Claws or Blade Guard Vets into your unit, we both know your not gonna survive 50% of the damage, they will be wiped out. This only works if you have models left alive in the unit after each subsequent attack which in this day and age of 40k, isnt that often for a 1 wound model.