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 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then like I said, why not just limit the amount of demons you can take or the kinds so it isn't just cherry picking all the best in slot units ? Why does it have to be a zero sum game when it makes perfectly good sense and reason for DG to fight with nurgle demons ?

That's just summoning with extra steps?

Saying no, I want just and only DG, that is fine and it's your choice but for those who do in fact like cake and eating it as well, we may like a little demon flavor on that cake without needing to summon them or suffer the over the top negatives which we all know were in place for some very real problem lists " cough guard and knights..cough..ad mech knights..cough imperial soup, command point farming..cough."

The suffering in just in your head. For some reason nurgle faction players (I dislike calling a traditional army like this "soup") see a buff to the other side as a nerf to them, despite not having lost anything.

Mono DG is getting a buff. DG+Daemons is *not* losing anything at all.

@Jidmah honesty I know this all your opinion, but I think the vast majority of people are ok with select Nurgle daemons being in the DG codex. DG are THE Nurgle faction in 40K and it only makes sense they are able to fight together since in the lore they fight together. They should be able to keep thier contagious of Nurgle ability when they do (note the name). Nurgle daemons should be included in the codex and considered a part of the DG.

The DG have a very small unit election when compared to SM and CSM that this only makes sense. Your argument is like saying SMs shouldn’t get their buffs if they take Primaris and non-Primaris in the same army. It makes more sense for the DG to fight with Nurgle daemons than it does for nurglings to be in a Khorne daemons list.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then like I said, why not just limit the amount of demons you can take or the kinds so it isn't just cherry picking all the best in slot units ? Why does it have to be a zero sum game when it makes perfectly good sense and reason for DG to fight with nurgle demons ?

That's just summoning with extra steps?

Saying no, I want just and only DG, that is fine and it's your choice but for those who do in fact like cake and eating it as well, we may like a little demon flavor on that cake without needing to summon them or suffer the over the top negatives which we all know were in place for some very real problem lists " cough guard and knights..cough..ad mech knights..cough imperial soup, command point farming..cough."

The suffering in just in your head. For some reason nurgle faction players (I dislike calling a traditional army like this "soup") see a buff to the other side as a nerf to them, despite not having lost anything.

Mono DG is getting a buff. DG+Daemons is *not* losing anything at all.

Ah, I see the disconnect, and its an easy one to make since this hasn't been true for quite a while. But some people see 'Followers of Nurgle' as the faction, not Death Guard or Daemons or whatever. This goes back to the original list, and to various iterations of chaos space marines before the daemons were torn out and thrown in a random bin to rattle around by themselves.
That recent background novels happily put DG and daemons fighting together without issue (Dark Imperium and Plague War), its just insult to injury.

So yes, people do see penalties for trying to recreate their original armies as 'losing something.'

It may not bother you, but you need to grasp that it does bother other people.

DG plus Nurgle Daemons is not losing anything at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. With the core keyword and bubonic Astartes it's quite possible they introduce something like an "infernal" keyword or something similar when the Daemons Codex comes around, so that all auras and buffs don't work cross Codex anymore.

Voss wrote:
So yes, people do see penalties for trying to recreate their original armies as 'losing something.'

It may not bother you, but you need to grasp that it does bother other people.

The thing I disagree on is that contagions of nurgle being a penalty. It's not. It's a new thing that buffs mono DG armies.

It's a mechanic that allows both types of armies to exist, and if the 'Followers of Nurgle' players want in on that one thing mono DG have over them it will just make the army weak and reliant on a second codex once again.

It might be because I used to be a xenos player until 8th, but I do like playing armies out of just one book.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

DG plus Nurgle Daemons is not losing anything at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. With the core keyword and bubonic Astartes it's quite possible they introduce something like an "infernal" keyword or something similar when the Daemons Codex comes around, so that all auras and buffs don't work cross Codex anymore.

Possible. But that's a discussion for when the daemons codex is supposed to be released.

From the things we know so far, the one and only real loss is that plague spitters no longer benefit from strength auras.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DG souping with DoN is not the same as them souping with literally another codex, and should not be treated as such. Happy now? I'm not sure what you see in that hill but you seem very determined to die on it.

It is not, and as you have not brought as single argument besides "I say so" while also failing to respond to single one of my arguments, the only conclusion left to draw is that you are wrong on this.
There simply is no good reason why DG+daemons should inherently be more powerful than an army made of just Death Guard.

I would respond to more of your arguments if more of them were valid, instead the only consistent theme is 'screw players running mixed Nurgle and logic be dammed.'

I notice a change in your stance--suddenly it is about DG+daemons being more powerful than mono-DG. But why? Mono-DG have the same 'synergy' you spoke of cross-Nurgle having only more so. It must then be because DoN offer a wider unit choice and tactical options unique to them. Which is an entirely valid point, and one also seen in every other chaos faction offering strengths that mono-DG do not have. So I ask you this, again;

Why should souping DG and DoN be held at the same level as souping DG and Thousand Sons? Or World Eaters? Or anything else? If the idea is that players should benefit from limiting themselves to DG, then surely that also applies to limiting themselves to Nurgle. DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

 Jidmah wrote:

Voss wrote:
So yes, people do see penalties for trying to recreate their original armies as 'losing something.'

It may not bother you, but you need to grasp that it does bother other people.

The thing I disagree on is that contagions of nurgle being a penalty. It's not. It's a new thing that buffs mono DG armies.

It's a mechanic that allows both types of armies to exist, and if the 'Followers of Nurgle' players want in on that one thing mono DG have over them it will just make the army weak and reliant on a second codex once again.

It might be because I used to be a xenos player until 8th, but I do like playing armies out of just one book.

Thats... fine? Play however you like.
But you're going to keep having this argument with people as long as you keep telling them your likes are right, they're wrong and the disadvantages are just in their heads.

Plus there is a certain amount of dishonesty in trying to claim that the army-wide benefits aren't the standard. We all know armies without the extra are at a disadvantage; doctrine marines have been dominating for some time and there is little disagreement as to the biggest reason why.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Then like I said, why not just limit the amount of demons you can take or the kinds so it isn't just cherry picking all the best in slot units ? Why does it have to be a zero sum game when it makes perfectly good sense and reason for DG to fight with nurgle demons ?

That's just summoning with extra steps?

Saying no, I want just and only DG, that is fine and it's your choice but for those who do in fact like cake and eating it as well, we may like a little demon flavor on that cake without needing to summon them or suffer the over the top negatives which we all know were in place for some very real problem lists " cough guard and knights..cough..ad mech knights..cough imperial soup, command point farming..cough."

The suffering in just in your head. For some reason nurgle faction players (I dislike calling a traditional army like this "soup") see a buff to the other side as a nerf to them, despite not having lost anything.

Mono DG is getting a buff. DG+Daemons is *not* losing anything at all.

I would go so far as to say DG allowing demons more easily wouldn't be a nerf to mono DG at all, simply a boon to those who choose combined arms of marines and demons from the same god. I get you have things against soup lists, and for many of them they can be pretty lame to deal with but not all of them are the problem here. In GWs ham fisted way they always apply the same fits all sizes fix to issues but it doesn't just take out the problems it also strikes down on the combinations that were fluffy and none abusive.

I'd add as well if demons aren't even in the codex, will make summoning them if that will even still be allowable a pain in the butt as well, so yeah I'd rather they have an option to be included without throwing off the DG specific stuff. Mono DG doesn't need a buff over DG plus demons if the DG forces are actually good and viable on their own. Give people viable options and not just, well take it if you want to give up a lot for the sake of the good feels.

I mean is anyone even suggesting a smattering of nurgle demons would make this codex over the top, omg amazing ? I highly doubt that to be the case so what is the issue aside from " I just don't like allies " ? I mean I get, I don't field allies often but DG with nurgle demons are just such a natural fit that it's intense they don't have easier access to work together without messing with their respective army wide rules.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Daemons or not, here's hoping the hard lockdown we're now under in the UK doesn't affect the release date.

Been doing some mathhammer on which is better between axes and swords on Blightlord Terminators. With the new contagion rule bringing marines down to T3 i think it's commonly perceived that the S6 of the axe is better due to wounding on 2s. Against marines they actually perform identically and the sword is actually superior against most of the targets you would expect to go up against.
Surprisingly, the only situations that axes are significantly better is really space marine HQs and Ork Boyz

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Took one piece out of context and ignored the rest, including a direct question. What was the phrase? "The only conclusion left to draw is you are wrong on this."

Voss wrote:
But you're going to keep having this argument with people as long as you keep telling them your likes are right, they're wrong and the disadvantages are just in their heads.

I literally put a list of advantages daemons provide DG with in a post with only for it to be removed from quotes and being ignored.
Skimming the thread, the 'Followers of Nurgle' players have provided the following arguments:
- "It's not fluffy" Which is true, but not the point. These kind of mechanics are an abstract tool to fix game problems. Marines aren't losing their doctrines when an imperial knight is stomping around somewhere nearby because of fluff, but to provide a counter-balance to the undeniable synergy soup brings. It also serves to reduce potential unintended interactions, like stacking Contagions of Nurgle with the shriveling pox psychic power or having to balance every other chaos unit around them getting to shoot/hit targets with -1T because a DG ally is nearby. The fluff shell for this could surely have been chosen more elegantly, but that doesn't really change what its purpose is.
- "We don't know the full story yet/DG need contagions to counterbalance all the nerfs" maybe yes, maybe no. It heavily depends on points, stratagems and warlord traits. As of now, we don't know of any big nerfs outside of the drone. The only thing that really got worse when it doesn't have access to contagions are the flails, as GW probably didn't want them to be wounding T4 models on 2+. Any unit that has them also got a massive boost to their combat ability (more WS/plague knives/axes), so that shouldn't really have a huge impact. If daemon engines, plague marines and terminators, despite mono DG not being a powerful army (goonhammer ranks solo DG "low mid tier"), are getting worse than they were in the old codex, it will be bad for both types of armies. Under the assumption that DG are not getting a kick in the nuts from the unknowns described above, the DG part of your army should be of similar power as they were even before you apply contagions. In the end, while certainly a cool and useful ability, I doubt that a situational -1 toughness aura is powerful enough to turn a bad unit into a great one.
- "Players are being punished for bringing DG". The essence behind this is that all 'Followers of Nurgle' players see any reward to mono-DG as a punishment to themselves. What people are suggesting is instead is to not reward mono-DG - essentially throwing them under the bus so their army doesn't lose out on anything.
- "Daemons are part of the DG codex" These were clearly meant for summoning, it has never for even one second been possible to build a detachment out of a Codex: Death Guard without losing all detachment benefits. If you bring a daemon detachment, you are playing a second codex with all the additional options, stratagems, relics, psychic powers and PA toys. No other codex has as many rules affecting another codex' units as nurgle daemons have affecting DG units. Every time "NURGLE DAEMON" is mentioned, this also works for all MBH, PBC, drones, possessed, defilers, daemon princes and Mortarion. And, of course, there is the rumor of daemons being gone from the codex which makes perfect sense when they've just stopped reprinting every marine unit five times.
- "There is no advantage to bringing soup/DG have just as much synergy with their own codex as with daemons" I really don't know how to respond to this, it's just so obviously wrong. How to you convince someone that the sky is blue? Did we not just come out of an edition that had soup reign superior above all? Competitive death guard players are still souping despite the drawbacks that 9th edition introduced. Is there any more proof needed? Heck, just Epidemius' tally alone might be more powerful than Contagions of Nurgle. Various characters can heal mortarion, daemon princes or PBC. GUO can revive blight haulers or the new 3 wound T5 possessed. A Feculent Gnarlmaw allows daemon engines to fall back and shoot or charge and advance. Nurglings can score or contest objectives during the second command phase which plague marines, cultists and pox walkers cannot even hope to get within 3" of without charges. Granted, GW might put an axe in most of these with the next daemons codex, but this has nothing to do with Codex: Death Guard.
- "DG souping with nurgle daemons should not be on the same level as DG souping with TS". True, and it isn't. As far as I can tell, the only thing DG get out of a TS detachment is warptime, and GW has made sure that running two primarchs who hate each other will extremely limit your army's ability to coordinate. Daemons and DG already work really well with each other, despite no rule explicitly saying so. I think the vision here is a fluff based ally matrix with multiple tiers of allies, which has never really worked well for the game, and just is not a part of 9th edition - either you can ally or you can't. If I had to solve this problem, I'd probably introduce a "daemonkin" rule in Codex: Daemons which would reward players for staying true to one god, but at the same time would have to be weaker than the reward for playing just one codex or the other.
- "Nurgle daemons are the same as assassins and inquisitors" They are not. Nurgle daemons are both capable of forming a fully functional (though boring) army on their own, as well as a chaos undivided daemon army. I'm sure if the inquisition would be a stand alone army rather than a supplementary force for all imperium armies they would receive the same treatment as Custodes or Knights. When their codex comes about, I'm sure daemons will also receive a similar rules to doctrines or contagions of nurgle for playing and army drawn from just one codex.
- "People just want to play their armies of old" They newest codex that could potentially allow both a mixed army of daemons and death guard was 4th edition released 13 ago which allowed you to summon generic greater and lesser daemons - a great unclean one and a mix of plague bearers and nurglings if my memory serves right. If you really wanted to run that, nothing really prevents you from doing so, especially not the Contagions of Nurgle. And there really is little reason to worry that you can't - every single DG armies placing well in an event in the last two months brought some daemons along.

So, there, I addressed every argument, again, so it would be great if any further discussion would happen in kind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Took one piece out of context and ignored the rest, including a direct question. What was the phrase? "The only conclusion left to draw is you are wrong on this."

"I would respond to more of your arguments if more of them were valid"

I also answered that question when you asked it for the first time, but unsurprisingly, you ignored the answer.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Took one piece out of context and ignored the rest, including a direct question. What was the phrase? "The only conclusion left to draw is you are wrong on this."

"I would respond to more of your arguments if more of them were valid"

I also answered that question when you asked it for the first time, but unsurprisingly, you ignored the answer.

You didn't fail to respond to multiple arguments; you artificially created an argument I didn't make and responded to that. And no, you didn't. So yeah, you remain wrong on this. Notice how no one is agreeing with you?

Here, yes or no question: Should an army that restricts itself to just Nurgle have any bonuses over one that does not in order to compensate for the tactical cost of missing out on other units?

Please take this discussion to another thread, it's overstayed its welcome in News and Rumours.

That is fair, I apologize.

 Jidmah wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
DoN may have more synergy with DG, but DG have even more synergy with other DG so that argument is not valid.

Yes, you keep repeating this, but competitive data clearly proves you wrong. There have been plenty of death guard lists placing in the top 4 tournaments over the course of the last three years, but every single one was running some amount of daemons. Heck, even the ones that come closest to being a pure army still require Epidemius to work. In the tactics thread most advice for DG players trying to improve boiled down to buying parts of another army.

If you really do care, I can compile a list of top DG lists of the last 1-2 years, but I'm reluctant to put in the effort if the response is just "but I say" or "competitive doesn't matter", as it often is when people are confronted with hard facts.

Top tournament lists will always be twinked out to the extreme that doesn't really indicate a problem with allies. In fact like I had said, just include demons in the new book as limited offerings that can be taken and they don't then even need to be allies just field them without hindering the rest of your force, you know like demons operate in the fluff with DG.

You also want to know why those top DG lists ran demons over the years ? First, DG as it was wasn't super good, was a very dated codex and their strats were weak. The book, on its own taking just mono DG stuff wasn't very good, I know because I play them. Honestly the few tricks demons could give them just made the list more fun to play and didn't really do much to make my lists OP pro tournament net lists. I ran high majority of plague marines, because I liked them, even if they weren't amazing, even when they were super expensive.

The reason most DG lists were told to " take demons " simply boiled down to the fact DG stuff came out pretty weak, over expensive or lacking reliability. Oddly, demons gave them that. If the new codex makes mono DG work, you'll hear much less about how people should take them. That said there is 0 reason why nurgle demons shouldn't be in the codex and taken without detracting from DG units capabilities if they are taken. I mean if someone doesn't like the demons, no one is forced to take them but they should be an option for army selection if someone does appreciate them.

 MinMax wrote:
Please take this discussion to another thread, it's overstayed its welcome in News and Rumours.

You're right, there is no point in arguing with a person that isn't even reading responses anyways.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I might be addressing AngryAngel80, I'm not. I read and understood your post. Even though I disagree with it, I will stop this fruitless discussion now as it really doesn't belong in this thread or this sub-forum.

January 16th is the earliest possible date for pre-orders, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

New article up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/07/plague-companies-return-with-new-rules-for-codex-death-guard/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kdeathguard07012021&fbclid=IwAR2kT1YWkiKP4Cza_n721LspBRYJF-bwx3hYCnNUJRLEXDEFEu-F_1nICKo

Damn i hope Thousand Sons get atleast half the love DG gets.

Also confirmation that preorder for Death Guard will be on the 16th at the bottom of the article

Harbingers significantly changed from how they appeared in War of the Spider, meaning that we can't assume any of the others are the same even with some abilities (e.g. traits) having the same names. Really like the company-specific contagions.

I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Voss wrote:
I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Guess they are trying to prevent any kind of unexpected synergy with aura boosting abilities.

The diffrent Contagions being WLT seems like a pretty cool concept, and it makes Mortarions ability make even more sense.

Iracundus wrote:

Voss wrote:
I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Guess they are trying to prevent any kind of unexpected synergy with aura boosting abilities.

Can't Vox Scream then either. Makes sense.

Voss wrote:
I guess I missed this last time, but Contagions being aura abilities that aren't technically aura abilities made my eyes roll.
What is wrong with their rules writing?

Whenever gw comes up with x they come up with anti-x and soon enough anti-anti-x

Biasn wrote:
Damn i hope Thousand Sons get atleast half the love DG gets.

Aye, and the other seven Legions as well.

So Death Guard just got a points updates and I get the feeling these are the same points we'll be seeing in the codex.

Plague Marines are up from 18 points to 21 for example which would be acceptable after the current changes.

poxwalkers down to 5 points.

Blightlord Terminators are now 40 points

Deathshrouds up to 50 points.

Nurgle Daemons seem to be completely gone.

Myphitic Blight Launchers up to 140 points. That's a lot of points for one of them...

Plague Surgeon going up by 10 points. He better get some worthwhile boosts as he was rather "meh" at 65.
Tallyman is also going up by 10 points.

Foetid Bloat Drones seem to be dropping in points overall.

Possessed going up to 24 points.

Entropy Cannons down to 5 points from 20 a piece. That's a huge change if it isn't a typo.

Lord of Contagion going up by 5 points. My guess is he getting some new bonuses.

Lord of Virulence is 120 points and the new fortification is 75 points.

What might be gone: No Nurgle Daemon points listed so they might be gone from the codex. Also no normal power armor sorcerer.