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It the icon doesn't get some incredible new rules, I really couldn't care less.

 Jidmah wrote:
It the icon doesn't get some incredible new rules, I really couldn't care less.

Got to agree somewhat. At very least have the Icon of Despair feel like something Nurge, and not Night Lords, would benefit or fit thematically a little better. I sorta like re-roll natural wound rolls of one in melee. But that's probably just GW's other game talking and works better for non-plague CSM stuff. I haven't really thought about how it would affect the game beyond there probably has to be a stacking effect with plague weapons to make it worthwhile.

Once per game, give +1 to-wound with all Plague Weapons for the Phase?

Yeah not sure about the Icon, but what if the sigil of corruption treats the units as one battle round higher for it's contagions table?

I could also see us getting a strat along those lines too

 JNAProductions wrote:
Once per game, give +1 to-wound with all Plague Weapons for the Phase?

That seems like it can really messy real fast without FFG-ing up the table (read: using tokens). While units with Icons are usually aren't that many on any given table, they can be. The 40k designers seem more apprehensive to using tokens than even AoS. It also feels kinda unfair that units without plague weapons get a more benefit of from the Icon (basically plague weapons). Feels wrong that non-Death Guard Legions and warbands get a more steady use for their praise to Nurgle over the truly dedicated.

I want the Icon to mimic something well known about the particular Chaos god's rules as to be pretty easy to remember. At the same time, the Icon should also be just as useful to the devout followers too. Preferably for the same points cost since Cult marines are still a thing, so the Undivided legions can still take them if they want. That seems like a tall order to me.

I am sure its possible, I just am not super familiar with Chaos Icons' past rules. I have largely stuck to none or Chaos Undivided if I had to pick something which I feel also probably should have to be a requirement. Nor do I feel I have a good handle on power in 9th ed to know of ways to stack benefits that would be useful to both devoted Chaos god followers and the CSM the 'what are you doing for me this week' worshipers. Which I think is important for Icons to service both if they are going to come back to being a worthwhile thing for Chaos space marines again.

What if... the Icon(or the sigil) provides a 5+++?

I'd totally run three blocks of 20 then

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd totally run three blocks of 20 then

...why? You'd get more efficiency of special weapons running at max 10.

Judging by the new MFM blocks of 20 sadly aren't an option anymore anyway. 10 is the new max unit size for our Plague Marines.

 Castozor wrote:
Judging by the new MFM blocks of 20 sadly aren't an option anymore anyway. 10 is the new max unit size for our Plague Marines.

Ah, good catch. The whole thing was silly at best anyways.

well there goes my plan for 14-man infantry blobs

Umbros wrote:
Lord Discordants don't fit with the fluff.

The fluff is arbitrary. GW can change it on a whim.

Umbros wrote:
Greater possessed is weird to be absent.

They don't make Death Guard Greater Possessed, so that's why Death Guard don't get to use that unit.

The only non-Death Guard units (aside from vehicles) that the Death Guard get are the ones that they can't really get rid of (generic Chaos Lords/Sorcerers, Possessed) because people already have those.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
But yeah, you're probably right that the MP icon will now be the Sigil

Of course. They want you to buy the separate Icon rather than make one from the kit, so they've made them different things.

Correct on all points IMO. Though I will note we all generally prefer GW change less fluff rather than more.

Has there been any indications about vehicles like the Rhino in the new Codex? Presumably they will still be available but trying to decide whether to make a Space Marine Rhino I picked up cheap second hand for my Death Guard (and convert the crap out of it) or just do it up as a Blood Angels Rhino. I already have a Drop Pod and only one squad of First Born Marines for my Blood Angels (excluding Death Company who are all jump packed up) so I’m leaning towards DG but now I’m afraid GW will do something silly like get rid of them from the new Codex.

The just published MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL 2021 MK I includes the Chaos Rhino's points value. You're pretty safe with the Rhino continuing in the new Codex since the list also includes the points value of things previewed for the new Codex.

Cheers, that’s great.

All DG units remain playable except the sorcerer without terminator armor, which has presumably been rolled into the malignant plaguecaster. The daemons of nurgle are also gone, but they were re-prints anyways. The only new entries are the Lord of Virulence and the Miasmic Malignifier.

If you don't feel like scrolling through the whole PDF, here is the full points listing for DG, minus the page break:

So Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators are the same price as for the Undivided Legions, so probably the same rules, no DR. Chaos Lords and Sorcerer in Terminator armour 5 PPM more, that's for DR, I'd guess. Hellbrutes 5 PPM more and Defilers 30, so are Hellbrutes getting DR and Relentless Hatred for -2 to damage? And what else do Defilers get for those 30 points? Is DR alone worth that?

Edit: Hellbrutes probably just -1 to damage. Forgot, Undivided Hellbrutes don't have Relentless Hatred yet, not until the new Undivided codex.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators are the same price as for the Undivided Legions, so probably the same rules, no DR. Chaos Lords and Sorcerer in Terminator armour 5 PPM more, that's for DR, I'd guess. Hellbrutes 5 PPM more and Defilers 30, so are Hellbrutes getting DR and Relentless Hatred for -2 to damage? And what else do Defilers get for those 30 points? Is DR alone worth that?

Edit: Hellbrutes probably just -1 to damage. Forgot, Undivided Hellbrutes don't have Relentless Hatred yet, not until the new Undivided codex.

Defilers get both WS and BS ar 3+, +1 attack (probably baking in hatefull assault). And +1 leadership.

Also nothing stopping GW from changing units in this codex before the release of the CSM one. They already said DG possessed wont have random numbers of attack ( source https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/30/the-most-improved-units-from-codex-death-guard/)
So we may see helbrutes with -2 damage.

strigops wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators are the same price as for the Undivided Legions, so probably the same rules, no DR. Chaos Lords and Sorcerer in Terminator armour 5 PPM more, that's for DR, I'd guess. Hellbrutes 5 PPM more and Defilers 30, so are Hellbrutes getting DR and Relentless Hatred for -2 to damage? And what else do Defilers get for those 30 points? Is DR alone worth that?

Edit: Hellbrutes probably just -1 to damage. Forgot, Undivided Hellbrutes don't have Relentless Hatred yet, not until the new Undivided codex.

Defilers get both WS and BS ar 3+, +1 attack (probably baking in hatefull assault). And +1 leadership.

Right, forgot about the improvement to WS and BS, Undivided won't be getting that until the new codex either. I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I really hope everything getting an additional attack isn't Hateful Assault getting "baked in" as many have theorized. It would mean a lot of the Legions units will be inferior in cc to their loyalist counterparts. Plague Marines 2A, no additional attack on the charge vs intercessors 2A +1 on the charge/when charged. Bad for our fw dreads too. Malefic Volleys are still there, hopefully Hateful Assault is too.

They won't be superior to Primaris Marines, but they will be superior to First-Born Marines who need Shock Assault to get to 2 Attacks. That's actually not a horrible place to be based on the current background.

What "current background" says thin blooded loyalists are better melee fighters than millennia old veterans empowered by a God? CSM have always been fighty, with loyalists being shooty. It would also cause the issue of loyalist fw dreads having more attacks than CSM fw dreads, despite costing the same price.

broxus wrote:I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

That's what I expect as well.

broxus wrote:
I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

Combining two conditional +attack abilities into an unconditional +1 attack makes sense though.

Well, if they also had the third attack from Hateful assault, then 21 points would be really cheap.

I mean, compare them to intercessors at that point. They lose 1 movement and 1 ap on the bolter, but gain T5 -1 damage and much better melee. For pretty much same cost?

Spoletta wrote:
Well, if they also had the third attack from Hateful assault, then 21 points would be really cheap.

I mean, compare them to intercessors at that point. They lose 1 movement and 1 ap on the bolter, but gain T5 -1 damage and much better melee. For pretty much same cost?

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Flails. Flails for days.

(Also assorted plague weapon shenanigans that can force multiply very quickly).

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Flails. Flails for days.

(Also assorted plague weapon shenanigans that can force multiply very quickly).

But if they have flails, they don't have worse AP on their Bolters, they don't have Bolters at all.

 Jidmah wrote:

broxus wrote:
I firmly believe we will keep hateful assault but lose Death to the False Emperor. That rule was always clunky. I seriously doubt we lost both. I think the additional attack was to make them more in line with Primaris.

Combining two conditional +attack abilities into an unconditional +1 attack makes sense though.

Maybe, but doubtful. DTTFE lead to some silly powerful luck attacks especially with flails. Most people even usually forgot the rule. However, hateful assault keeps them tied into thier Space Marine lore. They kept the malicious volleys it would be odd they lost the close combat portion of the rule. If GW was going to replace it then they likely would have replaced it all. Chaos units are far more renowned for combat than normal space marines. I believe they just wanted to make PM more in-line with Primaris vs. firstborn marines. Maybe I’m wrong, it doubtful. We will have to wait and see.

Seeing the points drop on flails leads me to believe they were nerfed. Likely they don’t get D3 attacks per attack anymore, but I hope I am wrong.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Much better melee? How do you figure-they get to reroll 1s to-wound on 2 attacks, +1 on the charge.

Flails. Flails for days.

(Also assorted plague weapon shenanigans that can force multiply very quickly).

But if they have flails, they don't have worse AP on their Bolters, they don't have Bolters at all.

And are 10 PPM more. It also ignores that in order to even get into melee you have to get there in the first place, which either involves slogging across the board at 5 movement (in which case you'll almost certainly not be at full strength when you get there), or using a transport (which is more points). Meanwhile those intercessors can fire away with their AP-1 bolters from a nice, safe, 30 away.

And then you have to compare to 19 PPM assault intercessors with their +1A AP-1 chainswords. And then consider the loss of Hateful Assault on everything else. Nah, Hateful Assault has to be in there.