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If it's any consolation, was discussing in an oldhammer thread a while ago about the change from 1st to 2nd edition 40k.
Just before 2nd edition an update (Compendium or Compilation, always forget which one) that increased marines from T3 to T4. I still remember a guy in a shop (because no internet to write on back then!) complaining that there would be even more marine players than there already were, and the marines were already over-powered and this would make them more so.

This was on the back of marines already being the predominant army, anecdotally everyone had at least 1 of the RTB01 (beakie marine) boxsets because they looked awesome compared to the Ork set, and as Marines were more expensive points wise you needed less to play the game. So Orks were outnumbered immediately in terms of players, and even when the Imperial Guard, Squat and Eldar sets came out obviously they had catching up to do and you never saw as many of them.

So this kind of discussion has been going on probably since the late 80s! Unfortunately (or fortunately) the guys in should pads will always be the poster boys for GW, and if anything those shoulder pads will keep getting larger

Ain't nobody holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy or to play if you buy.

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There are 20 factions with codices out there.
They essentially are doing releases roughly twice a month now, so it's not rocket science to just spread releases evenly across 12 months.

Heck, they'd even have four slots left to do chapter-specific releases so the snowflake chapters keep their identity and for stuff like ynnari, inquisition or assassins.

I mean they kind of are, there is a logical need to put the supplements out first to replace the now redundant codecii. So factoring that in they're forced to front load the marine supplements and then they're spreading out the marine models over several months so there isn't too much at once. Seemingly the same with crons but less so.

Given there are now 4 fewer marine dex, that's a net gain long term for everyone else in theory.

The supplements should have either been releases WITH the space marine codex in one shot. Or be the last "codexes" to come out since BA/DA/SW are still playable when using only the SM codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

So how exactly does adding that compair to the 17 primaris Lieutenants and shrike, calgar, Russ, ferros, garraden, slamanders dude.

You either include them all or have to discount them for everyone.

You can't arbitrarily decied that as you have 17 lt they only realy count as 1 model. I dont see 17 models for warboss on sale do you?

Would it make you happier if there were?

No, i'd rather the time spent designing these models be spent deisgning models for other armies.
if you get rid of 16 lieutenants, you get almost one new release per army.

Why do loyalists NEED another variant of a lieutenant? Why can't csm get some legion-specific units, Craftworld new sculpts for finecast stuff, admech a skitarii HQ, Drukhari some HQ with mobility options, Harlequins litteraly anything to get the codex options in the double digits.

Thats why i personally find it annoying to see yet again "OMGZ A NEW FIRSTBORNEE CROSSES DA RUBICON!!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
A theory that really hasn't ever been proven.

Just because most people are taking marines to competitive games, doesn't mean that they wouldn't take another army if it had the same power/support.

And thats assuming that only the competitive scene makes GW money. The real indicator would be to see which armies the casual scene plays but thats not really possible.

I would assume the garagehammer players represent a much bigger % than the tournament players

 Jidmah wrote:

So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.

There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.

I know that there has been a decent exodus of people locally into Marines due to the support and the strength of the recent Space Marine books. The current support GW is providing Marines is tilting the playerbase into a single faction in many ways.

The recent uptake is likely the same how a lot of people took up Necrons recently and who took up Sisters of Battle earlier in the year. Big shiny model releases get attention.

I'm sure as other armies get big updates they'll get an uptick in customers too.


Also don't forget its a new edition and at present Marines and Necrons are the only armies with 9th edition rules.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.

There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.

I know that there has been a decent exodus of people locally into Marines due to the support and the strength of the recent Space Marine books. The current support GW is providing Marines is tilting the playerbase into a single faction in many ways.

Same here. Currently especially tau, TS and CSM players are currently breaking out their marine armies more often than their main armies.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

So as a conclusion the playerbase isn't 75% marines, marine saturation is simply GW's release schedule and that in essence if you ignore all GW's marketing and sales cycle, there isn't as much of a problem on a game to game basis? Obviously beyond the fact there are more marine players than any other faction, just not as disproportionately as expected based on releases.

There clearly is a bias towards people switching to marines because their primary army has no support and stopped being fun to play, with another group of people is switching to marines because the army they would like to play in competitive games simply doesn't do as well as marines.

I know that there has been a decent exodus of people locally into Marines due to the support and the strength of the recent Space Marine books. The current support GW is providing Marines is tilting the playerbase into a single faction in many ways.

Yep. Once again, when play petered out locally, the last couple of weeks where people tried to set up in-person games was just 2-3 people going

"hey, looking to bring my Blood Angels, played against marines the last few weeks so like to have a different opponent this time..."

"Got my salamanders, any non-marine players want to get a game in?"

"Have my ultramarines, would really like to purge some xenos!"

...and then nobody ended up having a game set up. Obviously, the major reason for the petering out was covid, but this isn't the first, or the second, or the third time I've seen nobody end up playing games in a given week because everyone is just playing marines, everyone is sick of marines, but nobody is willing to be the ones to willingly get steamrolled by playing something other than marines. It's almost like this has been going basically non-stop since Codex 2.0 what, a year and a half ago?

GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.

Racerguy180 wrote:
GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.

I wouldn't say GW is lazy. Misapplying their energies and over focusing on Marines, sure, but not lazy. Making 17 kits instead of one is the opposite of lazy.

But when they're all basically the same, single primaris sized astartes, it is very easy to change little things and bam....17 lieutenants. That is kinda lazy considering the amount of work they'd need to do for Orks, Eldar, etc...

Racerguy180 wrote:
But when they're all basically the same, single primaris sized astartes, it is very easy to change little things and bam....17 lieutenants. That is kinda lazy considering the amount of work they'd need to do for Orks, Eldar, etc...

Except they're in different poses, and the Phobos and Bladeguard varients aren't even wearing the same wargear.

So, no it's still not being lazy.

Especially not if people are buying them and not the xenos kits.

I've bought every ork and DG kit they've released since 9th

Yeah, I've been a loyal customer and since 9th I've purchased all the content GW has put out for Orks, Genestealer Cults, Thousand Sons, Tzeentch Daemons, Drukhari and Harlequins! I'm such a loyal customer.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I've been a loyal customer and since 9th I've purchased all the content GW has put out for Orks, Genestealer Cults, Thousand Sons, Tzeentch Daemons, Drukhari and Harlequins! I'm such a loyal customer.

Nice, alternatively you could have had to spend £180 on codecii in a 6 month window.

Oh, you had to buy every new release? I wasn't aware that playing marines came with such an obligation

That said, 180GBP is just barely less than all of the ork releases of 8th combined as well (212 GBP, including Da Red Gobbo). Which only goes to show that every wave of marines could easily have been spread across 3 years.

 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, you had to buy every new release? I wasn't aware that playing marines came with such an obligation

That said, 180GBP is just barely less than all of the ork releases of 8th combined as well (212 GBP, including Da Red Gobbo). Which only goes to show that every wave of marines could easily have been spread across 3 years.

I meant if all the factions scotsman listed had gotten a release of codex at a minimum, they'd be down £180 + figures.

Since you know, only marines getting books in an injustice and everyone is desperate to hurl money for other factions, should be a small price to pay.

I play Space Wolves and Harlequins for 40k. I will say that 9th edition has created a huge interest in playing 40k in my club. Before 9th, we had a lot of AOS and specialist games being played, and that's all been pushed aside for 40k, as we've really been enjoying the missions and game.

Granted, I'd love to play more AOS and Warcry, but I'm pretty happy playing 40k. We do have a lot of space marines (I think everyone in the club has a space marine army), so I've been playing my harlequins more recently. Really looking forward to our 9th edition book.

But, I think pretty much all the games going on right now in our club are pretty much Dark Angels vs Necrons at the moment lol. Or Dark Angels Vs Dark Angels/marines.

The funny thing is, while I own almost all the new primaris stuff and more intercessor variants than I want to count I have only played 1 game with Marines out of the 12 or so I have played of 9th. That game was with Space Wolves and only used one primaris model! I have been playing my Alpha Legion army almost exclusively and have faced Emperor's Children, Drukahri, Night Lords, and Dark Angels. Only one of those armies had primaris. All of these stories are anecdotal in the end but I for sure understand the anger and irritation. I have a Tau army that I am not enjoying and I really want updated Eldar infantry to get back into Craftworld Eldar. But I am patient after so long being involved with GW.

Nurglitch wrote:
Especially not if people are buying them and not the xenos kits.

Which xenos kits? If GW released them (and gave them reasonable prices) i would buy them.

Compare these two

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors-2020
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Howling-Banshees-2020

And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Especially not if people are buying them and not the xenos kits.

Which xenos kits? If GW released them (and gave them reasonable prices) i would buy them.

Compare these two

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors-2020
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Howling-Banshees-2020

And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.

It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Especially not if people are buying them and not the xenos kits.

Which xenos kits? If GW released them (and gave them reasonable prices) i would buy them.

Compare these two

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors-2020
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Howling-Banshees-2020

And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.

It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.

yeah, i know. Everything about the kit is ridiculous. The models look great, but i'd expect the kit to either come with 10 models or be half the price it currently is.

Not to mention the Blood of the phoenix box that was even more of an insult.

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Especially not if people are buying them and not the xenos kits.

Which xenos kits? If GW released them (and gave them reasonable prices) i would buy them.

Compare these two

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors-2020
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Howling-Banshees-2020

And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.

It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.

This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.

But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.

If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.

Dudeface wrote:


This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.

All the kits you listed are 10-man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.

If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.

I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.



Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.

It matters less what ever a unit is troops or elite, although GW does seem to price elite ones a bit higher. It is all about the number of units GW can make, how much molds cost and how many people buy the models. What is the difference of number of buyers of an intercessor box and any eldar unit? 5 to1, maybe 10 to 1. this means GW is not incited to make more marine units to make more money, but the less often bought units have to generate a higher income from smaller sells. What would you want that eldar models cost as much as marines, but generat something which in GW eyes is a lose?

Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.

yes, but I don't see how my situation has anything to do with GW sells policy.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.

All the kits you listed are 10-man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.

If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.

I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.



Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.

Christ fine, havocs - weapon swaps only, terminators - limited posing and weapon swaps, retributors - weapon swaps only, seraphim/zephyrim - limited posing and minor differences between units, I.e. weapon swaps and a slightly different backpack.

All 5 man boxes of comparative age and price. Sorry if I misremembered any of them.

Just to key off your last point to Karol, players choose to pick space marines, not GW.

Edit: ooh eliminators: 3 man £30 fixed poses

Dudeface wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Especially not if people are buying them and not the xenos kits.

Which xenos kits? If GW released them (and gave them reasonable prices) i would buy them.

Compare these two

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors-2020
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Craftworlds-Howling-Banshees-2020

And tell me that its my fault that craftworld aren't getting more love because i don't want to bend over for daddy GW.

It's also not just "5 vs 10 for basically the same price" the howling banshee kit is borderline monopose. the only bits that are in any way swappable are 5 masks for 5 identical bare faces, and 1 model can be made as either an exarch or a regular banshee. If it was a good kit, with a bunch of different arm poses and full head and torso poseability like the Harlequin Troupe box I might be able to overlook the lack of options and numbers for the price, but the fact that every box must have 4 models built exactly identically in the exact same exaggerated poses meant it was a kit I was only ever going to buy 1 of.

This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.

Crons' 5-man kits at this price point are dual-unit kits that typically have 3-4 sets of weapon options (Lychguard with scythes, lychguard with swords, praets with staffs, praets with casters as an example)

Sisters' 5-woman kits at this price point are single unit kits with multiple weapon options and multiple options. The retributors kit comes with 2 cherubs, 6 heavy weapons, sergeant optional wargear and 23 different heads, all unique.The banshees kit comes with ONLY sergeant wargear.

The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.

Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?

Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)

Dudeface wrote:


Christ fine, havocs - weapon swaps only, terminators - limited posing and weapon swaps, retributors - weapon swaps only, seraphim/zephyrim - limited posing and minor differences between units, I.e. weapon swaps and a slightly different backpack.

All 5 man boxes of comparative age and price. Sorry if I misremembered any of them.

Just to key off your last point to Karol, players choose to pick space marines, not GW.

Edit: ooh eliminators: 3 man £30 fixed poses

all the models you listed are chunky models with lots of plastic on them. I'm pretty sure 5 banshees have less plastic in them than 3 eradicators.

My quip at Karol was in response to his "It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs." comment. He seems to forget how much he was crying non stop about his GK in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.

Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?

Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)

it really does, and the size comparison is valid when the kit has nothing else to go for itself.
If eradicators were terrible rules-wise, you could still at least use their size to justify their price