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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


This is fairly normal now though, chaos marines, sisters and crons are all the same.

All the kits you listed are 10-man.


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Karol wrote:
But isn't it the of pink razors here? Intercessors are going to be bought by a large number of player, banshees will not. To create the metal thingies to make models the cost is more or less what ever you make 5 intercessors or 5 banshees. So banshees to generate the assigned goal income for GW have to cost more.

If there were as many eldar players as marine players, buying loads of banshees for each of their eldar army, they could cost less. And GW then could think about options and making alaitoc banshees different from those of other craftworlds. But this is not the case so eldar players have to pay more. It was their choice to pick the army, not GWs.

I can run 30 banshees in my craftworlds. Instead i run zero because im not paying for the overpriced kit (at least not from GW). So instead of making a little bit of money from me buying 1-2 boxes, they make zero money. And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees. Both kits arent troops, both kits are melee-only units, possessed have actual customisation, banshees dont. And before you tell us that "nobody plays craftworld anyway", polls on here showed that about the same amount of people play marines play craftworld.



Oh and you chose to play GK even tho they sucked, it was you choice, not GW's.

I don't want to pick a fight, but aren't you comparing a kit release in 8th with one released in 4th by comparing Banshees to Possessed?

I won't disagree, the Banshees where phoned in, but there is at least a 15 year gap between releases in that comparison.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees

Same reason a rhino/razorback kit is more than 20% cheaper than a sisters rhino. It's what GW think they can sell it for.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I don't want to pick a fight, but aren't you comparing a kit release in 8th with one released in 4th by comparing Banshees to Possessed?

I won't disagree, the Banshees where phoned in, but there is at least a 15 year gap between releases in that comparison.

I am not sure what the fight would suppose to be about. GW does not care how old something is or was. From what I understand stuff like plastic IG or imperial tanks cost a lot less for identical models in the past. They also don't seem to care about quality of some of their models, like the plastic khorn demons or their resin models. Only the now exists for them. And it makes sense, no one is going to keep a job because he sold models well X years ago.

As long as people buy stuff GW will sell them stuff, and the cost of the stuff is going to be made to be same with similar units that is not that old or fresh made.

I don't know what patern GW use to set the cost of their base of elite units, that aren't marines. But a box of 5 old plastic and 5 resin and 5 new plastic are probably going to cost the same.

I polish currancy 5 dire avengers cost the same as 5 dark reapers. And from what I understand the DA are plastic and Dark reapers are ancient resin models. And all those 5 model boxs cost only a little less then 10 guardians.


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A.T. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
And then , tell me why a box of 5 Possessed is cheaper than a box of 5 banshees

Same reason a rhino/razorback kit is more than 20% cheaper than a sisters rhino. It's what GW think they can sell it for.

they know they will sell a specific number of marine rhinos, and assume they will sell fewer SoB ones. And as molds, work time and material cost more or less the same for either of those, the SoB rhino has to cost more to cover the the difference in number of units sold. I mean GW is not selling even marine characters for 1/10th of a cost of an intercessor box, they know they will sell fewer cpts, librarians etc so they have to cost more.


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Dudeface 794465 11002373 wrote:

Christ fine, havocs - weapon swaps only, terminators - limited posing and weapon swaps, retributors - weapon swaps only, seraphim/zephyrim - limited posing and minor differences between units, I.e. weapon swaps and a slightly different backpack.

All 5 man boxes of comparative age and price. Sorry if I misremembered any of them.

Just to key off your last point to Karol, players choose to pick space marines, not GW.

Edit: ooh eliminators: 3 man £30 fixed poses

Okey either this is some english language thing I don't understand or I am too dumb. GW knows how many units of eliminators a marine player can buy , specialy with the rule of 3. I would suprised if they didn't have a spread sheet for stuff like that. Elite support unit that will be bought in 1-3 boxs size has this cost. They clearly have it for HQs. I mean making a primaris Lt doesn't really warrent the cost in comperation to lets say a box of intercessors.
And it even clearly shows in how they price boxs of units. The medium rank start collecting necron/marine box costs almost the same as a box of necron.

Clearly GW assumes that they will be selling more of the first, then of the second. So they are willing to take the lose just to sell more units. While with a necron warrior box GW assumes that those that will buy it would buy it no matter what the price of the box is right now, within some limitations of course.

Karol wrote:
And as molds, work time and material cost more or less the same for either of those, the SoB rhino has to cost more to cover the the difference in number of units sold

Circles back around to marine oversaturation. The principle that marines are such a large block of the playerbase that anything not made for marines simply brings in less money and GWs response is to deepen than particularl hole.

I doubt GW have ever released detailed figures even in their financials but i'd be curious to see just what % of their sales are marines and chaos marines over the years, alongside points like big primaris releases, the height of the horus heresy game, the waves of chaos releases a few years back, etc.

Does it really matter why the over saturation is here ? The fact we are arguing why just shows the OP he is correct and it exists, why doesn't matter at this point.

You know the song it's raining men ? Well guess what, those men are the emperors space marines !!

Dudeface wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.

Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.

I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?

Well what did SM's get this and last edition? The entirety of the Primaris range of models, that by itself is dozens of new units. Just searching "primaris" on GW's page brings up 55 results, some aren't new units and some are combinations but you are likely talking about 40+ brand new models.

What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.

SemperMortis wrote:
...What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.

Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
...What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.

Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.

I'm not including Forge World in this it would be annoying to say the least.


Also, rather telling that the "new" units are old units with new/plastic sculpts for the most part. Actually, the only "new" unit you mentioned would be GSC characters lol.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.

Didn't the tau'nar come out in 2016?

Looking more recently than that I think you might have to start scraping the barrel for blackstone characters...

Karol wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I don't want to pick a fight, but aren't you comparing a kit release in 8th with one released in 4th by comparing Banshees to Possessed?

I won't disagree, the Banshees where phoned in, but there is at least a 15 year gap between releases in that comparison.

I am not sure what the fight would suppose to be about. GW does not care how old something is or was. From what I understand stuff like plastic IG or imperial tanks cost a lot less for identical models in the past. They also don't seem to care about quality of some of their models, like the plastic khorn demons or their resin models. Only the now exists for them. And it makes sense, no one is going to keep a job because he sold models well X years ago.

As long as people buy stuff GW will sell them stuff, and the cost of the stuff is going to be made to be same with similar units that is not that old or fresh made.

I don't know what patern GW use to set the cost of their base of elite units, that aren't marines. But a box of 5 old plastic and 5 resin and 5 new plastic are probably going to cost the same.

I polish currancy 5 dire avengers cost the same as 5 dark reapers. And from what I understand the DA are plastic and Dark reapers are ancient resin models. And all those 5 model boxs cost only a little less then 10 guardians.

I didn't want to trigger an arguement, just wanted to point out that different kits made with different technology, with different mold tooling, and likely different wages aren't really 1:1 comparable for cost.

Ice_can wrote:
The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.

Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?

Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)

Yup, plus being put in that Blood of the Phoenix box initially. I'm guessing there's some internal politics at GW where someone is trying to sabotage all non-Primaris releases to make it seem like they're a better idea than they really are.

Hecaton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
The Banshee kit was like someone was deliberately trying to sabotage the kit to sell poorly.

Like seriously who thought that 5 banshee's in mono pose with no weapon options demanded the same price as a devestator squad?

Like seriously they are more than most 10 model troops with 0 options and don't even justify it via size (though that is usually a poor parallel for prices)

Yup, plus being put in that Blood of the Phoenix box initially. I'm guessing there's some internal politics at GW where someone is trying to sabotage all non-Primaris releases to make it seem like they're a better idea than they really are.

I imagine the more likely answer is that the studio banged out a direct update to the existing models, added in a Ynnari head option and that was it. I imagine the lack of additional options was to keep them true to concept, or they couldn't think of any wargear that fit Banshees properly in time. But I assume incompetence over malice when it comes to GW shooting itself in the foot.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Whenever this discussion comes up I always have to laugh because of the Marine players agreeing with the central issue people raise, while still saying that they're buying all the new releases anyway.

Well, why shouldn't they? It's not their fault they get given new stuff.

I noticed we had a random metric of marines getting 80% of the releases earlier on here as well which is incredibly incorrect in terms of models, it's easily ess than 50% of 40k releases off top of my head?

Well what did SM's get this and last edition? The entirety of the Primaris range of models, that by itself is dozens of new units. Just searching "primaris" on GW's page brings up 55 results, some aren't new units and some are combinations but you are likely talking about 40+ brand new models.

What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.

Well aside from space marines there was an ork release, stealer cults, ad mech, necrons, entire sisters range, custodes, new knights and chaos knights, 2 waves of daemons, chaos space marine wave and the full death guard faction.

Oh I forgot the eldar and dark eldar units, ill lump them grudgingly into an aeldari release.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
...What have Xenos as an entire monolithic entity got in that same time frame? Orkz and Necrons got new releases...who else? honest question because I am drawing a complete blank and feel rather silly for it but regardless, I think its fair to say Space Marines are receiving more than their fair share of support.

Incubi/Drazhar and Banshees/Jain Zar. GSC support characters. Riptide variants and Tau'nar from Forge World.

All of those were pre 8th.
The 8th edition FW releases have been Marine based too.
Astraus then 30k with marines, custodes and knights.

Some of these releases were very small though, the number of Lts alone for marines equals most of the character models of other factions. I'd love to see the model kit listings, as well as codex given, supplements, etc.

There just has been a ton of marines and they seemingly are without end for their release window as opposed to other factions which get some stuff, and then nothing for a long time.

With Banshees and BotP the more likely explanation is that it was an experiment to see exactly how desperate people were for new plastic Aspects and Phoenix Lords and whether GW could nickel and dime Aeldari collectors/players as hard as they do Marines.

Because it's not just that Marines get a lot of players, but the faction has some real fething whales (to use app and videogame terminology for a second) in it too that will buy bundles of stuff because it has a Marine on it. The sheer amount of screenshots I've seen of people buying 9 ATV's, 9 Turrets or 9 Gladiators (despite being able to magnetize the model) is actually absurd. These same people probably buy the ebooks of every single new Marine book on release day too. By comparison, I've seen a lot of people buying the new Necron stuff in droves, but they're doing reasonable stuff like focusing on the models they like first and buying maybe a duplicate. I've yet to see triple Monolith hauls with 6 boxes of Ophydians to go with it. And the effectiveness of the models on the table has no impact here before you bring it up; Firestrike Servoturrets and Gladiator Tanks are not exactly breaking the meta right now.

 Bosskelot wrote:
With Banshees and BotP the more likely explanation is that it was an experiment to see exactly how desperate people were for new plastic Aspects and Phoenix Lords and whether GW could nickel and dime Aeldari collectors/players as hard as they do Marines.

Because it's not just that Marines get a lot of players, but the faction has some real fething whales (to use app and videogame terminology for a second) in it too that will buy bundles of stuff because it has a Marine on it. The sheer amount of screenshots I've seen of people buying 9 ATV's, 9 Turrets or 9 Gladiators (despite being able to magnetize the model) is actually absurd. These same people probably buy the ebooks of every single new Marine book on release day too. By comparison, I've seen a lot of people buying the new Necron stuff in droves, but they're doing reasonable stuff like focusing on the models they like first and buying maybe a duplicate. I've yet to see triple Monolith hauls with 6 boxes of Ophydians to go with it. And the effectiveness of the models on the table has no impact here before you bring it up; Firestrike Servoturrets and Gladiator Tanks are not exactly breaking the meta right now.

Wild. Are these the kinds of people who post pics to facebook groups of their "haul" i.e. all their minis still in boxes?

Our local whale is currently posting IKEA furniture he has bought to store his mountainrange of shame

 Jidmah wrote:
Our local whale is currently posting IKEA furniture he has bought to store his mountainrange of shame

Wo Berge sich erheben und Alpen daran kleben...

That beeing said, i will need another vitrin or two and boxes for my miniatures so

No, he literally bought two cupboards to hold boxes of sprues :rolleyes:
It's worth noting that he doesn't own any marines though, it's all TS and necrons.

OOF.
That's a lot of sprue

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Some of these releases were very small though, the number of Lts alone for marines equals most of the character models of other factions. I'd love to see the model kit listings, as well as codex given, supplements, etc.

There just has been a ton of marines and they seemingly are without end for their release window as opposed to other factions which get some stuff, and then nothing for a long time.

If I ever get insanely bored (it will happen), I'll one day put the list together, but again I'd point out that buying a codex and nigh mandatory supplement every year isn't good.

Dudeface wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Some of these releases were very small though, the number of Lts alone for marines equals most of the character models of other factions. I'd love to see the model kit listings, as well as codex given, supplements, etc.

There just has been a ton of marines and they seemingly are without end for their release window as opposed to other factions which get some stuff, and then nothing for a long time.

If I ever get insanely bored (it will happen), I'll one day put the list together, but again I'd point out that buying a codex and nigh mandatory supplement every year isn't good.

I may be a broken record by now, but rules are a buissness for GW, one they invest minimally into (cue the gakky quality) and make dosh over them fixing up their gakky quality, and marines tend to be the easiest sold and have the highest ammount of potential sales aswell as probably a rather easily monetised playerbase.

The issue isn't the marine players, i doubt the veterans of the faction are okay with this.
The harsh matter is, that GW found a way to further monetise the faction via "consolidation" in a way that is the worst possible scenario for the custommer base as a whole. I doubt marine players would be opposed to a propper consolidation e.g all the rules in one book, but that doesn't make as much money. Then again GW also managed to resell marine players their own army again with primaris.

A.T. 794465 11002526 wrote:Circles back around to marine oversaturation. The principle that marines are such a large block of the playerbase that anything not made for marines simply brings in less money and GWs response is to deepen than particularl hole.

I doubt GW have ever released detailed figures even in their financials but i'd be curious to see just what % of their sales are marines and chaos marines over the years, alongside points like big primaris releases, the height of the horus heresy game, the waves of chaos releases a few years back, etc.

No there is no over saturation if there are buyers for something. There is no over saturation of male razors in the market over female ones. Males just require and buy more of them, so the prices for theirs are different. Even if the only differen tthing about them is the box or colour.

If GW over night decided to sell and produce 10 model boxs of any non marine factions it would not jump to sell numbers marines have. Worse GW would be risking, that unlike with marines, less popular models would not sell. And less popular models, again, do not cost less to design or produce. GW producers marines because marines sell more, they sell more of the hyper powerful stuff, and of the bad stuff too.

If GW makes a box of banshees then it is a box of bansheers which eldar players will buy. If GW makes a box of heavy intercessors a BA/DA/SW/DW and marine players will buy it.

As for a sales numbers I remember Jes Goodwin saying that marines outsell other games GW makes. But even if he was telling a lie, which could be a real or partial lie, as he didn't supply any numbers. I still have my doubts that the numbers somehow are marines 35% of everything sold and eldar being 34% of things sold, and eldar players being ,for some unexplained reason, treated bad by GW.

Other miniature games prove that GW's pricing is not necessary in the slightest.
They do it because they can.
Like Apple charging you an extra £500 because they removed the headphone jack and no longer include a charger, because they can.

GW's playerbase is fiercely loyal and often people won't even *consider* the possibility of playing another game or that GW is milking them.
Which just allows GW to continue.
I like to point at the app as an example. A lot of people hold an opinion of "I know it's crap, but you can't expect perfection and I'm supporting it now so that GW can improve it/the army builder will be here soon".

To a certain extent, I get it. 40k is an absolutely awesome setting, and in spite of the fact that I absolutely detest GW's constant milking, and don't even really like the rules, I'm still considering starting a new army. But every time I plan even a small army, the £200-300 of models/books required is a slap in the face.

The app and many apple products are a bad example, because you can objectively judge those. For software (and hardware) you can put the requirements against the features it a has, and when it doesn't fulfill you requirements, it's a bad piece of software/hardware.

For the game and the models, that is much more difficult. Essentially the only metrics are "do you like the models?" and "is the game fun", both of which are highly subjective.

To me, 8th and 9th edition are lots of fun, and since I have found a way to regularly buy models and books without overspending, I have no large issues with their prices. There are some models which I simply won't buy because of the price (DG reinforcements, for example), but that's just how it is.
There also is the issue of having people to play with, and other games looking interesting. For example I can't find anyone willing to play WM/H with me, and while both Malifaux and Maelstrom's Edge are probably great games, I'm just not interested in them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
GW made 17 lieutenants cuz they're lazy. coulda just made 2-3 and given them options included in the kit. but they'd rather "make" you buy (X) different kits.

I wouldn't say GW is lazy. Misapplying their energies and over focusing on Marines, sure, but not lazy. Making 17 kits instead of one is the opposite of lazy.

Considering that they are most likely using the same 3D sculpt again and again(my guess is Zbrush) and just changing pose and some insignia I wouldn't say that this is a lot of work. It's actually a low hanging fruit that provides them with an easy sale with collector's and promotion for various venues. This is quite literally the easiest thing they could do compared to making an actual new sculpt.

Perhaps the biggest shame here is that they could very well have the same approach in Astra Militarum and Aeldari as there is a lot of armor overlap. However, they might not have committed to such a project yet(or have and are keeping tight lips) so we are left with minimal releases in those factions. The Incubi and Howling Banshees release does give me hope though.

This is also why we could get some promotional sisters figurines as they just had to take an existing sister model and repose and rekit it along with small tweaks. The thing is we are living in the wonderful age of digital sculpting and it can speed up a whole lot as well as provide easy modifications to existing units.

 Jidmah wrote:
The app and many apple products are a bad example, because you can objectively judge those. For software (and hardware) you can put the requirements against the features it a has, and when it doesn't fulfill you requirements, it's a bad piece of software/hardware.

I disagree, you can very much evaluate the features that a box-set has.
How poseable are the models? How many models do you get? Etc.
You can also compare how much similar products are to GW's pricing. And GW's costs look ridiculous here. Even really nice game systems like Weird War Two type stuff are selling resin kits at similar or lower prices than GW, when you know their volume of sales is going to be *significantly* lower.

For the game and the models, that is much more difficult. Essentially the only metrics are "do you like the models?" and "is the game fun", both of which are highly subjective.

IMO this is a question of whether or not a person will buy the object, not if it is a fair price.

I don't want to sound like it's a crime for companies to sell for stuff for what people buy, that's how the market works.
As consumers how job is to decide what a fair price is and don't pay over that.
If 40k sales started dying and competitor game systems with cheaper kits started rising in popularity, I think we'd see GW's first ever price reduction.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I didn't want to trigger an arguement, just wanted to point out that different kits made with different technology, with different mold tooling, and likely different wages aren't really 1:1 comparable for cost.

But for the company they are. GW ain't an eastern european charity organisation. If they set up a rule that box of this type of units are suppose to cost not less, then the prices are going to be what ever they are. And one kit could be plastic dire avangers and the other kit could be ancient resin models, yet somehow both end up costing the same.

I don't know what I am doing wrong here. Do people think that I like the fact that GW generates or seems to generate their prices the way they do? Because I do not. I just don't understand why people think that GW with the way the company prices stuff, would go on and decide that something that costs them the same to make (probably more, they re use a lot of assets making marines and primaris) as a box of marines, but will bring in less money, but will take up the same shelf space should cost less. Aside of course to make the players that want to buy the box happy.

I already gave the example of the elite box and the necron warrior box. In polish currancy the boxs cost practicaly the same. But one has just the warriors and the scarabs, while the other has a character and the whole marine part of the box.

[quote=kirotheavenger 794465 11002794 a9a9e796c545e52c80603929805ba2ed.jpgI disagree, you can very much evaluate the features that a box-set has.
How poseable are the models? How many models do you get? Etc.