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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well until they become heavily available and used by many, pardon my skepticism for wanting a larger test bed for their worth at least in so far as deciding they are average.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






People here have tons of extra flamer aggressors and inceptors from the conquest magazines, and it's not that hard to slap a slightly bigger bolter onto them.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




or you know...count-as. "hey, these marines on large bases are the other marines on large bases!"
It's one trick GW doesn't want you to know!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:
GW don't care which grey plastic they sell.


I think they do. There's some kind of internal politics where they don't want to push anything like Space Marines. It's like fething John Cena.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok I just have to say, someone listed heavy intercessors as decent, how can they be anything quite yet they aren't even released yet ?

You can math hammer things all you like but ~


Well, we've got the stats.
We've got opponents.
We're playing games.
And we've got plenty of spare models & bitz to use as proxies or for kitbashing....

We can tell how the real models will work via real games.
The unit won't magically work any different with official models....

Or maybe everyone just already knows how assorted str.5 xshot Bolt weapons on a marine chassis works....
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Hecaton wrote:
Tyel wrote:
GW don't care which grey plastic they sell.


I think they do. There's some kind of internal politics where they don't want to push anything like Space Marines. It's like fething John Cena.


I'm no AoS expert but it seems the sigmarines are pushed by gw but nowhere near to the same extent as space marines and the other factions get a much better share of the releases than in 40k unless I'm missing something.

 
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 kingheff wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Tyel wrote:
GW don't care which grey plastic they sell.


I think they do. There's some kind of internal politics where they don't want to push anything like Space Marines. It's like fething John Cena.


I'm no AoS expert but it seems the sigmarines are pushed by gw but nowhere near to the same extent as space marines and the other factions get a much better share of the releases than in 40k unless I'm missing something.


It wasn't the case for the first 2-3 years of Sigmar when they had 3 very large waves, the last one ended up with the last edition.

The basically got standard peeps, scout peeps and specialist peeps. Almost looks familiar...
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Dudeface wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Tyel wrote:
GW don't care which grey plastic they sell.


I think they do. There's some kind of internal politics where they don't want to push anything like Space Marines. It's like fething John Cena.


I'm no AoS expert but it seems the sigmarines are pushed by gw but nowhere near to the same extent as space marines and the other factions get a much better share of the releases than in 40k unless I'm missing something.


It wasn't the case for the first 2-3 years of Sigmar when they had 3 very large waves, the last one ended up with the last edition.

The basically got standard peeps, scout peeps and specialist peeps. Almost looks familiar...


Don't forget the whole concept of AoS changed dramatically from its inception. GW was very clearly trying to copy cat marines with stormcast. Same design ethos, same marketing, same overall structure - all the early stories were Stormcast being super awesome; a massive lionshare of release models. Even other armies released new like the Khadorans didn't get anywhere near the same level of support.

Thing is GW changed over that time. I think the management change and the whole focus of AoS changing resulted in them abandoning that plan and approach. I think wiser minds prevailed and realised that Marines, for all their financial success, are actually bad for the games overall diversity and health in many respects (as several pages of this thread shows). AoS has thus had a very different approach since around 2.0. With lore focusing on all armies; with stormcast even taking a back seat in releases. I'm sure as other factions get pushed up we'll see a far more even presentation with AoS which is much healthier. You lose that element that 40K has had like armies such as Sisters of Battle, Necrons (early on) and Dark Eldar (missed several editions)being left out to dry - which only means GW has to invest even more to bring them back to life. Sisters of Battle is a fantastic example of a model range GW took a huge investment risk with to bring back. It worked and it must sting the company that they have this fantastic selling range of models that basically didn't sell because GW ignored them for so long - for a huge portion of time they could have been making sales.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 dotcomee wrote:
In 2019 I had a lot of hope when the SM codex came out, and the supplements. It could have been a great template for re-doing all the codexes the same way. All factions could have gotten a huge main codex, along with some supplements for different sub-factions. I was pretty excited.

Unfortunately, after the Space Marines got this great codex and supplements that had some absolutely amazing rules, what did the rest of us get? We got PA.


...you wanted to buy a second Codex within a 3 year edition, only to then have to rebuy the 'dex again within the early stages (12 months, say) of 9th edition?

Hecaton wrote:
Tyel wrote:
GW don't care which grey plastic they sell.


I think they do. There's some kind of internal politics where they don't want to push anything like Space Marines. It's like fething John Cena.


I'll be honest, I don't think John Cena cares about pushing Space Marines, Hecaton.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok I just have to say, someone listed heavy intercessors as decent, how can they be anything quite yet they aren't even released yet ?

You can math hammer things all you like but I think the heavy Ints will be very good when they actually get put out and outriders are for all intents seem better than bike units to me, or maybe on par, with bike units able to specialize with weapons while outriders are overall good for infantry clearing and rapid deployment around the board.

However aside from that I'd agree, GW is just so bad with rules they are hit and miss for making new units amazing good so I don't think they do that on purpose, or they try and are really bad at it. Take your pick.


Tabletop simulator or count-as. The minis not being out doesnt prevent people from playing them.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Tabletop simulator or count-as. The minis not being out doesnt prevent people from playing them.


But do you get those in competitive tournaments, where the usual meta-shifting occurs?

I mean its interesting to watch how Marine sadness see's some people going "the Codex is fine apart from Eradicators".
Whereas others are going "Eradicators? That was last month's problem. We are now much more worried about mass Vanguard with Lightning Claws and Storm Shields backed by Plasma Inceptors".

I think Heavy Intercessors will be fine but its not obvious they bring much you can't get with other troops anyway. In fact regular Intercessors seem to be on the way out, because being able to chuck some Phobos into the midboard just helps the objective game more.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Tyel wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Tabletop simulator or count-as. The minis not being out doesnt prevent people from playing them.


But do you get those in competitive tournaments, where the usual meta-shifting occurs?

I mean its interesting to watch how Marine sadness see's some people going "the Codex is fine apart from Eradicators".
Whereas others are going "Eradicators? That was last month's problem. We are now much more worried about mass Vanguard with Lightning Claws and Storm Shields backed by Plasma Inceptors".

I think Heavy Intercessors will be fine but its not obvious they bring much you can't get with other troops anyway. In fact regular Intercessors seem to be on the way out, because being able to chuck some Phobos into the midboard just helps the objective game more.


the meta shifting happens where the games are played by competitive players. Tabletop sim has had nonstop games firing off since the beggining of the quarantine and their Discord is super active. And yes, there has been competitive tournaments on TTS.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Somewhere in Canada

Tyel wrote:


I think Heavy Intercessors will be fine but its not obvious they bring much you can't get with other troops anyway. In fact regular Intercessors seem to be on the way out, because being able to chuck some Phobos into the midboard just helps the objective game more.


First off, let me say I'm not really a marine player, and I do believe that right now, and at numerous points throughout the history of the game, there is and has been an oversaturation of marines. I do hope marine releases slow down and that we see other factions get attention, and I think we will.

But I picked this quote to illustrate one of the things that happen when you discuss "marines" in general terms. I said I don't really play Marines, but I do play Deathwatch and Greyknights as Chambers Militant for the Inquisition. And when you play Deathwatch, your Intercessors are the root unit in a Fortis Kill Team, while Heavy Intercessors are your base unit for Indomitus teams and Reivers are the root for Spectrus teams.

In a "Marine" army, there may be other units that fulfill these roles, but in a Deathwatch army, no other unit does quite what they do. I'm not sure how many other seemingly redundant units in the core SM list have special significance when used in combination with a particular subfaction, but it seems reasonable. I'm not saying this justifies the marine bloat or the relentless release schedule- I'd like to see many of the other factions catch up to this gold standard for options and sub-faction interactivity.

I think the responsibility for oversaturation comes from GW's addiction to edition refreshes. I firmly believe that a long lasting edition is the only way other factions can have even a chance to close the gap. I like 9th much more than 8th, but I can't deny that if we were still in 8th, we would have been part way through another cycle of PA style campaign books which would have meant a little support for more factions rather than a lot of support for marines and necrons. The second style PA wave could have been better for non-marines as the first PA served them pretty well.

I'm hoping that the glut and grind of Marine releases now paves the way for a glut and grind of Eldar releases beginning with the DE codex, the previewed Lelith and a few extra kits to support the release. Then maybe a DE Kill Team that doubled as a new 40k unit; CWE could also get Plastic Striking Scorpions as a Kill Team; the next month CWE drops and the scorpions are already in play, so maybe you get hawks and a spider/reaper dual build and a few HQ's- maybe some phoenix lords to go with all the juicy new aspect warriors.

Getting something to replace Blackstone and/ or Doubling down on Kill Team as a second vehicle for releasing 40k content will also help other ranges- I'm curious to see how much support KT is going to get this time around. I always thought it was under utilized as a mechanism for releasing new 40k content- BSF actually did more to move the needle than KT (though the Rogue Trader set was great, we never got the Commorragh set, or the Inquisition set, etc).

I hope 9th lasts long enough to be the end of finecast for all factions. I hope it lasts long enough that every faction gets enough time to grow a Crusade from a Combat Patrol to an Apocalypse army.





   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






PenitentJake wrote:
Tyel wrote:


I think Heavy Intercessors will be fine but its not obvious they bring much you can't get with other troops anyway. In fact regular Intercessors seem to be on the way out, because being able to chuck some Phobos into the midboard just helps the objective game more.


First off, let me say I'm not really a marine player, and I do believe that right now, and at numerous points throughout the history of the game, there is and has been an oversaturation of marines. I do hope marine releases slow down and that we see other factions get attention, and I think we will.

But I picked this quote to illustrate one of the things that happen when you discuss "marines" in general terms. I said I don't really play Marines, but I do play Deathwatch and Greyknights as Chambers Militant for the Inquisition. And when you play Deathwatch, your Intercessors are the root unit in a Fortis Kill Team, while Heavy Intercessors are your base unit for Indomitus teams and Reivers are the root for Spectrus teams.

In a "Marine" army, there may be other units that fulfill these roles, but in a Deathwatch army, no other unit does quite what they do. I'm not sure how many other seemingly redundant units in the core SM list have special significance when used in combination with a particular subfaction, but it seems reasonable. I'm not saying this justifies the marine bloat or the relentless release schedule- I'd like to see many of the other factions catch up to this gold standard for options and sub-faction interactivity.

I think the responsibility for oversaturation comes from GW's addiction to edition refreshes. I firmly believe that a long lasting edition is the only way other factions can have even a chance to close the gap. I like 9th much more than 8th, but I can't deny that if we were still in 8th, we would have been part way through another cycle of PA style campaign books which would have meant a little support for more factions rather than a lot of support for marines and necrons. The second style PA wave could have been better for non-marines as the first PA served them pretty well.

I'm hoping that the glut and grind of Marine releases now paves the way for a glut and grind of Eldar releases beginning with the DE codex, the previewed Lelith and a few extra kits to support the release. Then maybe a DE Kill Team that doubled as a new 40k unit; CWE could also get Plastic Striking Scorpions as a Kill Team; the next month CWE drops and the scorpions are already in play, so maybe you get hawks and a spider/reaper dual build and a few HQ's- maybe some phoenix lords to go with all the juicy new aspect warriors.

Getting something to replace Blackstone and/ or Doubling down on Kill Team as a second vehicle for releasing 40k content will also help other ranges- I'm curious to see how much support KT is going to get this time around. I always thought it was under utilized as a mechanism for releasing new 40k content- BSF actually did more to move the needle than KT (though the Rogue Trader set was great, we never got the Commorragh set, or the Inquisition set, etc).

I hope 9th lasts long enough to be the end of finecast for all factions. I hope it lasts long enough that every faction gets enough time to grow a Crusade from a Combat Patrol to an Apocalypse army.







Nah, here's what's gonna happen:

Dark Eldar codex drops, Lelith Comes out. Only available in the following 300$, nah feth it 400$ box set:

-Retributor Squad
-Immolator
-New Sisters HQ
-Seraphim Squad

-Lelith Hesperax
-Finecast Mandrakes
-Finecast Razorwing Flocks
-Finecast Clawed Fiend
-Finecast Khymerae

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:
?

I'll be honest, I don't think John Cena cares about pushing Space Marines, Hecaton.


You're misunderstanding the analogy. John Cena was picked by the management of his company to be the only one who financially succeeded in a major way of his generation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/12 04:58:34


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Tyel wrote:


I mean its interesting to watch how Marine sadness see's some people going "the Codex is fine apart from Eradicators".
Whereas others are going "Eradicators? That was last month's problem. We are now much more worried about mass Vanguard with Lightning Claws and Storm Shields backed by Plasma Inceptors".



Codex Space Marines was broken on multiple levels since the beginning. Eradicators were simply the tip of the iceberg.

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







the_scotsman wrote:
...Nah, here's what's gonna happen:

Dark Eldar codex drops, Lelith Comes out. Only available in the following 300$, nah feth it 400$ box set:

-Retributor Squad
-Immolator
-New Sisters HQ
-Seraphim Squad

-Lelith Hesperax
-Finecast Mandrakes
-Finecast Razorwing Flocks
-Finecast Clawed Fiend
-Finecast Khymerae


Surely the Imperium half would be an Intercessor kit, a bike Primaris Lieutenant, an Impulsor, and some melee Outriders with thunderhammers and storm shields.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Truth be told veteran outriders with the option to take Stormshields and melee weapon options would be kind of a cool. Give them hammers, swords and axs, mount a single plasma gun from the plasma inceptors, and they would be rather fun to use. And being veteran outriders there wouldn't be problems with DW players making them troops and running them in 5 man squads as part of their combat squaded strike teams.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I was attempting to suggest that for the parody to be funnier the Imperium half should be SM rather than Sisters, and include a unit that's strictly better than something that's already available alongside existing units nobody really needs more of and yet another Primaris Lieutenant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/12 22:46:58


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 AnomanderRake wrote:
I was attempting to suggest that for the parody to be funnier the Imperium half should be SM rather than Sisters, and include a unit that's strictly better than something that's already available alongside existing units nobody really needs more of and yet another Primaris Lieutenant.


No, it can't be marines because then GW couldn't use nobody buying the box as an excuse to never make more eldar figures.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







the_scotsman wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I was attempting to suggest that for the parody to be funnier the Imperium half should be SM rather than Sisters, and include a unit that's strictly better than something that's already available alongside existing units nobody really needs more of and yet another Primaris Lieutenant.


No, it can't be marines because then GW couldn't use nobody buying the box as an excuse to never make more eldar figures.


Oh. Shouldn't it be DE vs. Kroot or DE vs. Aspect Warriors to make it as out-dated as possible, then?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/13 00:29:02


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




DE vs Catachans
   
Made in pl
Student Curious About Xenos




I can totally relate to this man. I started with SM and some IG but i really loved Xenos and Chaos. Sadly at some point i just wanted anything but imperium. I like new Necrons look and style and some changes to Primarines like techmarine and some new stuff (not all tho). Now im just waiting for passion to return and im making some of my own minis for fantasy or DnD (especially ones from wood) or i look for retro warhammer stuff like metal SoB, Bloodletters,Chaos Termies,Beastmen, Wolf Guards etc.

"If odds are against you and everyone doesn't agree with you that doesn't mean you are wrong" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





ccs wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok I just have to say, someone listed heavy intercessors as decent, how can they be anything quite yet they aren't even released yet ?

You can math hammer things all you like but ~


Well, we've got the stats.
We've got opponents.
We're playing games.
And we've got plenty of spare models & bitz to use as proxies or for kitbashing....

We can tell how the real models will work via real games.
The unit won't magically work any different with official models....

Or maybe everyone just already knows how assorted str.5 xshot Bolt weapons on a marine chassis works....


Ok let me check with the tournament results...oh wait..wouldn't be any for them yet..so yet again, pardon my skepticism but until they get actual time on the higher end tables vs high end opponents a bunch of hearsay means little to me. Unless if I proxy them and they ruled I can be like " Guys, these new chonky marine boys, they are the truth. " Seriously, lets stop being so silly. A handful of " expert " experience doesn't truth make and I have played this game long enough to be as grizzled as the next vet. They need actual time, on actual tables in a larger way than just " Some people played some games and were like..meh. ".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/13 22:44:25


 
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

This re-run of codexes has officially lost me. Rules should be digital and publishing should be reserved for lore and fiction. I would happily buy into a series of books exploring the lore and Universe that weren't made to feel redundant in a couple of years' time. The rules should be free and digital, it's 2020 for goodness sake. Rule printing has been a pure cash grab for a while now. I'm not buying into it anymore.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Hollow wrote:
This re-run of codexes has officially lost me. Rules should be digital and publishing should be reserved for lore and fiction.

Privateer Press tried this. Their book sales crashed out.
Many game companies (Paizo and WotC among them) scrubbed their fiction lines. Paizo has been theoretically trying for another publishing deal for years, and hasn't gotten anywhere with it. They've instead started drip feeding chapters as part of their advertising model (sign up for a newsletter, get a chapter a week via email).

As business decisions go, 'publishing reserved for lore and fiction,' isn't working out all that well in the games industry.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/13 23:34:25


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Honestly just look at how few gamers read BL books. GW makes a huge number and yet fewer people ever read them. Heck I've been gaming for years and didn't read any until a few years ago.


Like it or not when you make lore optional many people who are new easily miss out on it because they simply keep prioritising new models ahead of lore. And with the game company making more models all the time (as they should) it keeps pushing lore to the back.



For a 10-20 or more year gamer who has read the Codex level lore for years they "know" the general lore and don't need it as a lure any more; they are already hooked.

The lore in the codex isn't just for them, its for all the new people who join up.


The codex is a great tool - its lore, art, paintwork, rules, gaming all in one book. It hits multiple fronts and works as a mechanic. If GW started making rules only versions of things they would be cheaper and they'd sell, but you'd fast find the optional lore elements falling to one side.


Heck when GW makes new rule books they never (or rarely) release printed "rules only" versions early; they focus on the big rule book which is impractical for the game, but which is chock full of the lore and hobby aspects.




And as noted PP tried this pure rules; pure online; fast changing and updating and digital method with a game that was very competitive based - and its not worked well at all. Suffice to say trying to treat a physical wargame like a digital game just doesn't work .Perhaps in 30 years when we've all got google eye-ball 1000s implanted in our eyes it might work; but right now its a nice add on but will never be the main form

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Voss wrote:Privateer Press tried this. Their book sales crashed out.

Overread wrote:And as noted PP tried this pure rules; pure online; fast changing and updating and digital method with a game that was very competitive based - and its not worked well at all. Suffice to say trying to treat a physical wargame like a digital game just doesn't work .


Any particular reason you guys are citing Privateer Press and not Corvus Belli? Infinity's rules are available in print or for free online and they seem to be doing fine.

Yes, it probably eats into the sales of print media, but better accessibility is a huge deal in this day and age. Expecting new players to fork out $115 for a core book + codex before they even know if they'll like a game is a pretty big ask, especially when your competitors do allow those prospective players to read through their rules.

For experienced players, I can't speak for anyone else, but when a codex contains:
-Recycled art
-Dry Wikipedia article fluff
-Rules that will be outdated in 1-2 years
-Points that will be outdated in six months

I don't see that as worth $50. So I don't buy them. Can't imagine I'm the only one. If they went back to the 3rd Ed design of mostly rules but with enough fluff and art to give you the feel of a faction rather than their entire history, I'd pay $20-30 for it. If they went to free online rules I'd probably put that money right back into minis. But the current codices and campaign books and expansions don't feel like good value for money.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 00:59:26


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




If people are buying the books at a healthy margin why would you give them away for free?

Realistically the lore on 40k books is fairly weak, and buying the Psychic Awakening books *for the story* I feel must have been a disappointment. (X fights Y, X appears to be winning but Z turns up. Then Y appears to be winning but they don't for some reason. Big climactic battle. The goodies win but at much cost, the baddies meanwhile don't actually lose anything especially meaningful. In conclusion nothing actually changes or goes forward, the end.) This is perhaps a bit unfair, some of them aren't awful - but I wouldn't pay £25 for the experience.

There clearly have been and remain authors with BL who can spin a good story - but a book with several hundred pages is a bit different (even if its the most generic of bolter porn) to the 30~ odd pages in a codex dedicated to basically explaining what the faction is and its history.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 catbarf wrote:
Voss wrote:Privateer Press tried this. Their book sales crashed out.

Overread wrote:And as noted PP tried this pure rules; pure online; fast changing and updating and digital method with a game that was very competitive based - and its not worked well at all. Suffice to say trying to treat a physical wargame like a digital game just doesn't work .


Any particular reason you guys are citing Privateer Press and not Corvus Belli? Infinity's rules are available in print or for free online and they seem to be doing fine.


Likely because Corvus Beli still trades with physical rules and lore in the same volume, both in their core rules and in expansions to their rules. They are doing the very same thing GW does; only they keep to fewer publications.

Yes they have their online Army builder and such, but they also still have all the print media as well.



Remember your casual fan and your new fan don't "need" the most up to date perfect rules. Having something physical in hand to reference is often far better for them and easier to work with. Heck I find online rules and details great to double check, but a pain to actually sit down, read and digest information from. I can do it (on a PC with a big screen); but its not my favourite compared to print media. Sure print gets out of date, but by and large the updates are tiny - a few points change; a few stats change - most updates to even GW's stuff don't come up to more than a single page of A4 (more for the core) and the bulk is often just clarification of terms/interactions (ergo FAQ) .




As I said I appreciate that experienced people don't get as much value from the lore in things like Codex where many times its often repeated summaries. Thing is the book remains a catch-all for newbies and pros and if GW started selling rules only versions the risk would be newbie and pros would gravitate toward them (Because they'd be shorter and therefore cheaper) which would fast result in reduced influence of lore on newbies. Again remember surprisingly few actually read BL books - heck some don't even really know about them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 01:09:10


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