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"Not the most consumer friendly but great for LGS" seems to be the battlecry these days. At some point LGS are going to have to stop relying on anti-consumer behaviour from companies and actually innovate their dinosaur business model.

I'd rather pay dues each month to a great place to play games(I did for years at a local club) than have the plight of Poor Ickle Game Store Owners used to browbeat people into paying dues to GW for the square root of nob all.

It's flying rodent gak crazy that they've taken away the ability to just buy a digital codex, it's (current year).

I would pay $5-10/month for an app that had access to all the rules, codexes and army builder app and was constantly updated. No problem.

As of right now, I don't pay for rules because they'll be obsolete within a year anyway and end up taking up space in my house.

 Yodhrin wrote:
"Not the most consumer friendly but great for LGS" seems to be the battlecry these days. At some point LGS are going to have to stop relying on anti-consumer behaviour from companies and actually innovate their dinosaur business model.

And yet... stores that attempt a membership or table fee model get immediately villified as greedy and trying to exploit the community because players expect it to be a free service.

Part of the problem with the "consumer friendly" argument is simply that the only friendly thing for consumers is free. It's just not a practical reality for anyone involved.

Table fees aren't terrible depending the fee itself though. The idea itself isn't bad as it helps contribute to the store. After all, I wouldn't sit at a Starbucks using their wifi for 2+ hours if I didn't buy at least a $3-4 cup of coffee.

Any store telling you that you have to be a customer to use the bathroom can go feth themselves with a cactus though.

I'd still buy my own codex for fluff pictures and to look nice on shelf.. that's all its good for. Its out of date and in need of FAQ on release...

Hence a all inclusive rules only subscription + Army builder model at £5 is acceptable.

Those that still want their codex will buy it anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Table fees aren't terrible depending the fee itself though. The idea itself isn't bad as it helps contribute to the store. After all, I wouldn't sit at a Starbucks using their wifi for 2+ hours if I didn't buy at least a $3-4 cup of coffee.

Any store telling you that you have to be a customer to use the bathroom can go feth themselves with a cactus though.

Lavendel isnt saying it's saying that it's bad behaviour of the store to have fees like that, they're saying it's a bad idea because many customers will call them greedy.

All datasheets are now sorta-kinda-mostly-butnotentirely free inside Battle Forge.

Plus a lot of patches and fixes.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/14/launching-today-in-warhammer-40000-the-app-datasheets-updates-and-more/

But now, thanks to a huge new update going live today, Warhammer 40,000: The App includes short-form datasheets for every unit in the game – whether you own their codex or not.

Each datasheet shows you the unit’s characteristics and weapons, which makes them a great way of getting a feel for how the unit performs – perfect if you’re thinking of including them in your army or simply wondering how best to obliterate them in your next game.

These short-form datasheets don’t include unit abilities – for those and other army-wide rules, Warlord Traits, Relics, psychic powers, and all the other good stuff from codexes, you’ll want to redeem the codes from your books on My Warhammer. But until then, the app has everything you need to jump into some open play games to test out different units and weapon options to see what works for you.

still missing the 2 new Deathwatch kill teams, and still can't properly configure a Proteus kill team with some legal loadouts.

To be fair, DW proteus kill teams are a headache and probably the most difficult datasheet to implement in the whole game.

My app updated 2 hours ago but i can't access any datasheets

 xttz wrote:
My app updated 2 hours ago but i can't access any datasheets

When you add a unit to your list, then open the unit it seems locked - to get to the short profile you can hit the button in the top right corner, shows the stat line as well as weapon profiles to me.
I think they're not really done, or it's not working 100% right now.

For datasheets I do own it will show the stat line immediately when you open a unit in your army list, and you have to hit the button in the top right corner to show the full datasheet - a decent solution, although I would prefer them merging both screens.

For datasheets I don't own it will show a lock instead of the statline, and the statline and weapon profiles (and loadout options) are shown when you hit the top right button, with special rules etc being locked in the datasheet.

I don't think they're getting the "this is not worth this much money if we still have to buy your books" argument, or more precisely they're not willing to allow people to go digital-only via subscription.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
"Not the most consumer friendly but great for LGS" seems to be the battlecry these days. At some point LGS are going to have to stop relying on anti-consumer behaviour from companies and actually innovate their dinosaur business model.

And yet... stores that attempt a membership or table fee model get immediately villified as greedy and trying to exploit the community because players expect it to be a free service.

Part of the problem with the "consumer friendly" argument is simply that the only friendly thing for consumers is free. It's just not a practical reality for anyone involved.

Ehhh, that seems like a USA problem, and not even a universal one since I've seen plenty of people from over that side of the pond referencing paying dues or table fees.

That said, a lot of gaming stores over there seem to have pretty meagre provision in terms of wargaming, with low-effort terrain and limited availability for everyone except CCG players, so yeah if a store like that suddenly turned around and just started demanding fees from people, I can see how people would vilify them as greedy and exploitative - because that would be the truth. I've also seen plenty of occasions described where stores start charging for table usage, but continue to be actively hostile to using third party models, Forgeworld models, models bought online, or basically anything else that the store itself doesn't sell them.

A new business model for stores isn't just "charge fees for things you used to give away as a free incentive", it requires a fundamental rethink of how the business is run to turn it into a venue that people want to visit and play in, rather than just being the place they go to because they have no other choice. Because here is the simple hard reality: local game stores aren't necessary anymore. The internet allows people to meet, organise games, and buy product(often with a steep discount compared to brick & mortar retail), and it allows companies to market direct to consumers. Providing a "destination" venue that people visit by choice is the only thing of value local stores have left, but that means stepping up their game. The ball is in their court now, innovate or die, and stop blaming customers if they refuse to.

so every patch (and there will be a lot of them..) it will just delete your lists ? Nice

This new patch didn’t delete my lists on iOS.

Lol @ that "free datasheets!" marketing nonsense. Yeah, free datasheets...without the actual data on them you need to play the game.

I'm pretty happy to see updates so soon. The app is very promising, and I look forward to when the bugs are all ironed out. I can build lists no problem with my current armies so far, just some ironing out needed with pregame strats, and relics.

I'm glad they added in quick reference datasheets for free, I love that feature of the app so far, so I can see what my opponents units stats are. I was worried they'd lock down everything with each new book, this is a feature I'll want the app for.

Despite the flaws, I can see a lot of potential in the software. It runs fast, and the search tool works really well. I like how the army builder works too.

 jaredb wrote:

Despite the flaws, I can see a lot of potential in the software. It runs fast, and the search tool works really well. I like how the army builder works too.

I agree! Careful saying that around here though, I think people are allergic to positivity.

KillerAngel wrote:

 jaredb wrote:

Despite the flaws, I can see a lot of potential in the software. It runs fast, and the search tool works really well. I like how the army builder works too.

I agree! Careful saying that around here though, I think people are allergic to positivity.

"Don't think, don't post criticism, just consume the product."

KillerAngel wrote:

 jaredb wrote:

Despite the flaws, I can see a lot of potential in the software. It runs fast, and the search tool works really well. I like how the army builder works too.

I agree! Careful saying that around here though, I think people are allergic to positivity.

Imagine paying for potential instead of a finished product to begin with.

To be fair it is quite clearly listed as a BETA so moaning the product 'isn't finished' is rubbish. They've never claimed the army builder was finished. In terms of everything else the app does, it works fine for me and always has done since day 1.

As for criticism, its fine if it is constructive but very little of the criticism on here is constructive. Destructive criticism is just moaning which does nothing to help solve any issues. Same with cost. I am sure you would love to be able to access all of GW's rules for $60-120 a year but that doesn't mean it is a viable business model or even a desirable one. GW have to pay their bills just like everyone else as well as make profit which is not always a dirty thing. The more profit they make the more stuff they can produce and release which we can then consume and enjoy

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
To be fair it is quite clearly listed as a BETA so moaning the product 'isn't finished' is rubbish. They've never claimed the army builder was finished. In terms of everything else the app does, it works fine for me and always has done since day 1.

As for criticism, its fine if it is constructive but very little of the criticism on here is constructive. Destructive criticism is just moaning which does nothing to help solve any issues. Same with cost. I am sure you would love to be able to access all of GW's rules for $60-120 a year but that doesn't mean it is a viable business model or even a desirable one. GW have to pay their bills just like everyone else as well as make profit which is not always a dirty thing. The more profit they make the more stuff they can produce and release which we can then consume and enjoy

Based on the fact that the same company is able to operate a similar app at a much lower price point i don't think that criticism of their pricing is "destructive" by default. Trying to charge too much while offering too little will simply result in the service failing, and GW having to shut down the app in a year.

In my opinion they should offer the full experience (Datasheets and BF) at 5, BF with short Datasheets for free (you still can't play the game like that!) and unlock BF for factions - without a subscription - via codes in the physical book. Also offer the codes on their own for people that don't need the physical book, at like half the price of the physical book.

Theyd still make money off of this.

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
To be fair it is quite clearly listed as a BETA so moaning the product 'isn't finished' is rubbish. They've never claimed the army builder was finished. In terms of everything else the app does, it works fine for me and always has done since day 1.

As for criticism, its fine if it is constructive but very little of the criticism on here is constructive. Destructive criticism is just moaning which does nothing to help solve any issues. Same with cost. I am sure you would love to be able to access all of GW's rules for $60-120 a year but that doesn't mean it is a viable business model or even a desirable one. GW have to pay their bills just like everyone else as well as make profit which is not always a dirty thing. The more profit they make the more stuff they can produce and release which we can then consume and enjoy

The problem is you're wrong here, if they make the app too expensive, not many people will sign up, and they won't make much profit, aka what is happening now. Very few people are subscribing because why would you? It's got the main rulebook, basic rules that you get with battlescribe, and that's about it. Not every single service needs to directly make you money to contribute to your profits. Believe it or not you can actually offer small services for free that have a big impact on how the customer sees your company. Free breakfasts at hotels, free bread or mints at a restaurant, you get the idea. Yeah you're still technically paying for that in other ways but that's the point, they're making record profits elsewhere, they can eat the small cost of an app, or even just lower the price. That is in fact constructive criticism, because if GW wants people to subscribe they're going to need to make major changes to their subscription model.

You need to remember that GW is not in a bubble here like they are with codexes. Battlescribe already exists as a listbuilder and despite a few little annoying quirks is overall an excellent app. GW can't just stick their fingers in their ears or sue it or ban it at their stores, they are forced to compete with it. Not to mention it's base form is free and it's annual subscription for mobile is less than one month of subscription for the GW app. Or, you can pay 2 months GW equivalent and have it's premium subscription on mobile AND PC. If GW wants people to subscribe to this app, they need to beat Battlescribe in an objective way that players will prefer GW's app, not just saying "it's official so you can only use our app". It didn't work for 3rd party models, it won't work here. But that's the thing, they've got a few viable choices to actually compete with battlescribe, because their app has some legitimately good features, and when finished will likely be a very good product. I've actually been sending them feedback on issues the app has, because I think it has genuine promise to be a really good app. Most of the criticisms I even have appear to be things that either slipped the first round of quality control or they just haven't gotten around to implementing. The problem is that at the price they are offering, they need to beat Battlescribe in some way other than just looking sharp, which is the situation now. GW has a couple ways it could actually compete with battlescribe which I'll constructively offer again here

*Make the app free for codex purchasers, or at least have a trimmed down version of it be free, I.E. you get your editor included with your online codex code, but you can't use it for armies you don't own. GW gets to keep selling overpriced codexes, people get a useful tool included with their codex at no additional cost, everyone is happy. People have additional incentive to buy the codex, and GW keeps their old business model. I would actually argue that if GW finishes polishing the roster editor app and includes it with a digital copy of the book that autoupdates with FAQ/errata, the codexes would infact be worth their current price point. I know I would happily buy them for my armies I don't play as much as opposed to what I do now, where I just use Battlescribe and cross reference it with pictures of the book online and faqs because I'm not paying $50 for a book I'll use maybe 5 times. I would argue this is the most realistic and likely model for GW. It costs them practically nothing to do, they're not losing money from it and gaining a lot of goodwill.

*Make the subscription worth the $5. This means making the app worth the $60 year. That means including every rule, in a handy to reference place, like they've done, but also including the codexes and the roster app. This way if you want to be cheap and only play one army or two, you buy your codex and that's it. But for folks who have multiple armies, you are getting them to pay even if they don't really play some armies much and they KEEP paying. It's a subscription, a player who plays xenos and doesn't get a release for a year will keep paying even though he didn't get a new book. It's not even like GW is losing money, as the costs to maintain an app are nowhere near the cost it takes to manufacture, store, and ship thousands of books all over the world. I don't see this one happening as GW loves selling codexes and books, but it would be a viable option for them. Keep in mind for every whale who owns 6 armies and is saving a ton of army, you're now getting consistent income from players with only one or two armies, who depending on the life of the edition and their books could actually pay more for the subscription than they would just buying the codex. Not to mention the app is guaranteed income every month, investors and management love that kind of stuff. Not as likely to happen though, because it would drastically cut into codex sales even if the app is more profitable.


GW has a lot of potential in this app, but they can't force people to use it. So if they want to make money on it, they have to concede that they actually need to compete with battlescribe. Competing with Battlescribe means they need to actually compete and not just stick their fingers in their ears or ban it. To compete means the app, in its basic structure, has to change. If they refuse to adapt and continue to charge $5 a month for this app, the only real subscribers they're going to have are the people that forget to unsubscribe after their one month free trial is up. Oh yeah, which reminds me

Don't forget to unsubscribe from the GW app before your 30 days are up or you will get charged for it

How long until they try to sue BS ?

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
To be fair it is quite clearly listed as a BETA so moaning the product 'isn't finished' is rubbish. They've never claimed the army builder was finished. In terms of everything else the app does, it works fine for me and always has done since day 1.

As for criticism, its fine if it is constructive but very little of the criticism on here is constructive. Destructive criticism is just moaning which does nothing to help solve any issues. Same with cost. I am sure you would love to be able to access all of GW's rules for $60-120 a year but that doesn't mean it is a viable business model or even a desirable one. GW have to pay their bills just like everyone else as well as make profit which is not always a dirty thing. The more profit they make the more stuff they can produce and release which we can then consume and enjoy

None of this makes much sense. The product was supposed to be out on July 11. They're 5 months late, just released a "beta," and yet are charging for it (no, a free month to get your credit card details doesn't count). People have every right to criticize a company that delivers a product 6 months late, still charges for it, and then has the nerve to say "but it's only a beta!" and use that as an excuse for why it doesn't work the way it should.

The second point is even less convincing. Most of GW's profits come from selling plastic, not rules. If GW could extract $60 to $120 a year from all their customers simply for their rules, even they, greedy as they are, would be very happy with that. Getting customers to pay that much a year simply for rules is any game company's dream.

It's downright absurd to claim that GW needs to charge more than $120 a year only for rules in order to have a viable business model. It's doubly silly because GW's profit margin on rules delivered via books is actually very low compared to its profit margin on plastic, or on rules delivered electronically. Printing and shipping hard-back, all-color books is very expensive.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
And yet... stores that attempt a membership or table fee model get immediately villified as greedy and trying to exploit the community because players expect it to be a free service.

Part of the problem with the "consumer friendly" argument is simply that the only friendly thing for consumers is free. It's just not a practical reality for anyone involved.

Ehhh, that seems like a USA problem, and not even a universal one since I've seen plenty of people from over that side of the pond referencing paying dues or table fees.

That said, a lot of gaming stores over there seem to have pretty meagre provision in terms of wargaming, with low-effort terrain and limited availability for everyone except CCG players, so yeah if a store like that suddenly turned around and just started demanding fees from people, I can see how people would vilify them as greedy and exploitative - because that would be the truth. I've also seen plenty of occasions described where stores start charging for table usage, but continue to be actively hostile to using third party models, Forgeworld models, models bought online, or basically anything else that the store itself doesn't sell them.

A new business model for stores isn't just "charge fees for things you used to give away as a free incentive", it requires a fundamental rethink of how the business is run to turn it into a venue that people want to visit and play in, rather than just being the place they go to because they have no other choice. Because here is the simple hard reality: local game stores aren't necessary anymore. The internet allows people to meet, organise games, and buy product(often with a steep discount compared to brick & mortar retail), and it allows companies to market direct to consumers. Providing a "destination" venue that people visit by choice is the only thing of value local stores have left, but that means stepping up their game. The ball is in their court now, innovate or die, and stop blaming customers if they refuse to.

I wish more stores would charge table fees.

A few FLGSes near me went bankrupt during the pandemic, I got a look at their books. High level, they lacked the revenue to generate more than a 5% margin, even with foot traffic. Seasonal traffic related to college semesters, debt to distributors, bad lease agreements, high state taxes, etc all contributed to a bad situation before the lockdowns started. Their businesses were unsustainable after a month.

Some of the owners are friends of mine. Would never have guessed how close they live to the poverty line. Hate to think how close they were cutting it 9 months out of the year, waiting for some big new release to keep them from having another month of losses.

I know the competition with internet sales is fierce, but going to a hobby store should be more like a restaurant. When you go to McDonalds, you are paying for the product and nothing else. When you go to full service place, you are paying for the ambiance. It costs more precisely because they are investing in you having a better experience than you would get somewhere else.

I'm put off by the app because it's directing revenue away from places that are primary points of interaction for people in the hobby. It means the people who put up tables where you play are going to have it even harder going forward because you're spending in the app instead of the store. Aside from diverting revenue away from the businesses who support their products, there's the question of consumer psychology. If you're used to spending in the app, you're going to be less likely to spend in the store for anything else you might need.

So charge for tables. People invest thousands of dollars annually in the hobby, spending a few bucks to stand around in retail space the owner is renting should not be that big a deal. Owners should be looking at scheduling systems, adding some white glove service to make the experience even more exciting for the people who come out.

 Argive wrote:
How long until they try to sue BS ?

The way things are set up, I don't think they can, unfortunately.

BattleScribe provides a platform, which (I believe) isn't tied inherently to any one system. Without data, it doesn't do much on its own.

The "community" generates data files for different games, and different factions within games, and makes these available as a shared resource. As this is decentralised, and not endorsed by the BS merchants *cough* *cough* GW can't go after the data files to get rid of them.

I'm not 100% certain, but unfortunately I think the only way they can do anything about this would be to buy out BS and close it down - no idea what the cost/benefit on such an action would be, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I'm put off by the app because it's directing revenue away from places that are primary points of interaction for people in the hobby. It means the people who put up tables where you play are going to have it even harder going forward because you're spending in the app instead of the store. Aside from diverting revenue away from the businesses who support their products, there's the question of consumer psychology. If you're used to spending in the app, you're going to be less likely to spend in the store for anything else you might need.

So charge for tables. People invest thousands of dollars annually in the hobby, spending a few bucks to stand around in retail space the owner is renting should not be that big a deal. Owners should be looking at scheduling systems, adding some white glove service to make the experience even more exciting for the people who come out.

I think I'm missing something here, techsoldaten - given you need to buy a 9th ed book to get the code to unlock the content in the app, I don't see how it is directing revenue away from a LGS. They can still sell the customer a Codex (or Codex Supplement), after all. And while there's a lot of 8th ed material included as part of the subscription, the value there decreases each time a new book is released.

I do agree with charging for table space, btw - though I think a LGS needs to put a bit of effort in regarding the quality of the tables/terrain provided at the start. If they're planning on adding more stuff over time - say an MDF urban layout for Infinity - and they aren't there yet, but they have a good mix of sci-fi and fantasy terrain to cover 40k and AOS, that's fair enough. One of those things where community updates are useful, if that makes sense.

Or another insane idea: They could also just do an app that is just a good as BS but updated immediately on release, and then watch BS wither and die.

What's "unfortunate" about GW not being able to shutter Battlescribe? People use it, people like it, and it doubtless sells models by virtue of existing and giving people easy access to the rules.

Jidmah wrote:Or another insane idea: They could also just do an app that is just a good as BS but updated immediately on release, and then watch BS wither and die.

That might also work, but inertia is a thing - and that's before you get the crowd that think they're entitled to get all the rules without paying for them.

I was working on the assumption that Argive's question regarding suing them was as a way to get rid of BS without doing something within the market

Billicus wrote:What's "unfortunate" about GW not being able to shutter Battlescribe? People use it, people like it, and it doubtless sells models by virtue of existing and giving people easy access to the rules.

Because - and say it with me, kids - piracy is not a good thing...

And yes, I acknowledge that the BS platform in and of itself isn't... generating the pirated materials. That would be the so-called "community". But because of the distributed - and I assume anonymous, or near-so - nature of said "community", GW can't go after them.

I own a number of 8th ed books, but if I were to download this BS and the 40k files, and start reading rules and building lists for books I don't own? Then I'm distinctly in the wrong.

As it stands, we have a number of posters on here who think just using BS and a copy of the core rulebook - or even just the rules pamphlet - is a legitimate way to play the game. This is one of the few areas where I'm in favour of the tournament approach, btw, given that most rules packs I've looked at mandate bringing the material you're using in your list to the event with you.

 Dysartes wrote:

Billicus wrote:What's "unfortunate" about GW not being able to shutter Battlescribe? People use it, people like it, and it doubtless sells models by virtue of existing and giving people easy access to the rules.

Because - and say it with me, kids - piracy is not a good thing...

And yes, I acknowledge that the BS platform in and of itself isn't... generating the pirated materials. That would be the so-called "community". But because of the distributed - and I assume anonymous, or near-so - nature of said "community", GW can't go after them.

I own a number of 8th ed books, but if I were to download this BS and the 40k files, and start reading rules and building lists for books I don't own? Then I'm distinctly in the wrong.

As it stands, we have a number of posters on here who think just using BS and a copy of the core rulebook - or even just the rules pamphlet - is a legitimate way to play the game. This is one of the few areas where I'm in favour of the tournament approach, btw, given that most rules packs I've looked at mandate bringing the material you're using in your list to the event with you.

Actually piracy hasn't that much of an adverse effect for a company. Atleast in the videogame industry and GW's TG is close enough to profit from the same people first planning out a list in BS and then buying the corresponding material, leading to a net gain for GW:
Secondly, GW could go after BS, forcing them to remove the issue Datapacks.It does not, probably because it estimated that it'd be a net loss to do so.

Thirdly: And this is to be taken into account, GW is behaving in a monopolistic fashion. Verifyably so through IP and copyright law it even is. GW is also not consumer friendly and further there are serious issues with quality assurance, especially in regards to rules sold at a premium. It is this lackluster service that pushes a lot of players to get "inventive" with where they get their rules, or even models from. Now two wrongs don't make a right, but considering the average defense of GW is along the lines of "voting with your wallet" it is that position applied to GW's model of sale.