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In a more serious response, the best counter is to not bring anything that they are designed to be good against, or just bring a lot of what they are crap against. Vehicles and Monsters are great in 9th but as such they are countered hard by large amounts of anti-tank. As such, field yourself a whole load of infantry.

You can shoot twice? You can cause crazy number of wounds per hit? Here’s some Termagants / Guardsmen / Cultists to waste your time on while the actual target sits further away.

Eradicators work great when they pop up and shoot at close range - deny them that with board control.

Actually toughness 3 hordes don’t work against white scars BA and space puppies, too many attacks. Even ork players spamming T4 boyz will struggle against current TAC lists of these melee centric chapters.
These don’t bring that many eradicators as they have other means of downing monsters and tanks

This is where I start to think the Lowly Las profile Weapons are gonna get a boost in 9th. S3 AP0 D1 just won't cut it. You'd need over 160 shots to take out a squad of 3 T5 3 wound models. That's way too much to even be feasible. I'm betting Las Rifles jump to S4 or at least get an "overcharge mode" to go S4, but lose RF and become just 1 shot. S3 attacks are worthless. What is the point of SGTs in squads with a 12" S3 pistol attack? Horde armies like Orks and guard will need to get a boost to their weapons. Make all Las S4

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is where I start to think the Lowly Las profile Weapons are gonna get a boost in 9th. S3 AP0 D1 just won't cut it. You'd need over 160 shots to take out a squad of 3 T5 3 wound models. That's way too much to even be feasible. I'm betting Las Rifles jump to S4 or at least get an "overcharge mode" to go S4, but lose RF and become just 1 shot. S3 attacks are worthless. What is the point of SGTs in squads with a 12" S3 pistol attack? Horde armies like Orks and guard will need to get a boost to their weapons. Make all Las S4

Is S4 better at wounding T5 than S3? Don't they both need a 5+?

 PaddyMick wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is where I start to think the Lowly Las profile Weapons are gonna get a boost in 9th. S3 AP0 D1 just won't cut it. You'd need over 160 shots to take out a squad of 3 T5 3 wound models. That's way too much to even be feasible. I'm betting Las Rifles jump to S4 or at least get an "overcharge mode" to go S4, but lose RF and become just 1 shot. S3 attacks are worthless. What is the point of SGTs in squads with a 12" S3 pistol attack? Horde armies like Orks and guard will need to get a boost to their weapons. Make all Las S4

Is S4 better at wounding T5 than S3? Don't they both need a 5+?

Good point. I guess it would be the same at that. However I still say currently Las weaponry is gak compared to all the Hyper Bolter iterations that are being tossed around constantly. What good is S3 AP0 D1 anymore, when over 50% of the factions troops are base T4 w/ 2W with a 3+?

With massed lasguns, you may not win any games, but every wound you score will feel like a victory!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is where I start to think the Lowly Las profile Weapons are gonna get a boost in 9th. S3 AP0 D1 just won't cut it. You'd need over 160 shots to take out a squad of 3 T5 3 wound models. That's way too much to even be feasible. I'm betting Las Rifles jump to S4 or at least get an "overcharge mode" to go S4, but lose RF and become just 1 shot. S3 attacks are worthless. What is the point of SGTs in squads with a 12" S3 pistol attack? Horde armies like Orks and guard will need to get a boost to their weapons. Make all Las S4

Is S4 better at wounding T5 than S3? Don't they both need a 5+?

Good point. I guess it would be the same at that. However I still say currently Las weaponry is gak compared to all the Hyper Bolter iterations that are being tossed around constantly. What good is S3 AP0 D1 anymore, when over 50% of the factions troops are base T4 w/ 2W with a 3+?

You sure that you want a better lasgun? It will come with an increase to the model's cost. Guards are there to soak fire and to provide anti light infantry fire. If you give them an S4 lasgun, they will increase in cost by 1 if not 2 points, making them bad at their intended roles.

I mean, if you want lethality against marine class enemies, you should just equip said squads with special weapons.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Good point. I guess it would be the same at that. However I still say currently Las weaponry is gak compared to all the Hyper Bolter iterations that are being tossed around constantly. What good is S3 AP0 D1 anymore, when over 50% of the factions troops are base T4 w/ 2W with a 3+?

Most of the factions have troops with base 1W and most of them have a worse save than a 3+. Unless you consider each SM chapter a single faction, which isn't.

I'm against boosting lasguns or other S3-4 firepower to be honest. Adding and additional W to SM was a move to counter the endless complaining about elite dudes going down too easily by light firepower. Now that they finally can soak a lot of wounds, like they should, that problem is fixed. If Primaris/Gravis dudes are too powerful just raise their points cost.

Just like I was against boosting melta. Vehicles and monsters were finally ok, there was no need of a broken weapon to counter them.

I don't think theres an issue with 5 point lasguns. Its more that 9 point Kabalites/Fire Warriors do about the same for their points - while not being meaningfully tougher despite the 80% points hike.

Really though the problem is that the game has become very assault centric (perhaps the biggest surprise compared to initial takes). Marines are great at this now due to the various buffs. Ye olde line infantry making up the troops of many factions though are terrible at it. Which isn't so much of a problem at 5 points a model (you can go Catachans, you can bring buffing characters) - but is quite an obvious issue for the two 9 point models mentioned above.

Whether you boost their assault potential, or make them cheaper, or make Marines more expensive is unclear. But something should give. (To a degree, its not a purely Marine issue, it applies to all the top factions. So making the bad factions cheaper is probably the more logical approach.)

 Blackie wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Good point. I guess it would be the same at that. However I still say currently Las weaponry is gak compared to all the Hyper Bolter iterations that are being tossed around constantly. What good is S3 AP0 D1 anymore, when over 50% of the factions troops are base T4 w/ 2W with a 3+?

Most of the factions have troops with base 1W and most of them have a worse save than a 3+. Unless you consider each SM chapter a single faction, which isn't.

I'm against boosting lasguns or other S3-4 firepower to be honest. Adding and additional W to SM was a move to counter the endless complaining about elite dudes going down too easily by light firepower. Now that they finally can soak a lot of wounds, like they should, that problem is fixed. If Primaris/Gravis dudes are too powerful just raise their points cost.

Just like I was against boosting melta. Vehicles and monsters were finally ok, there was no need of a broken weapon to counter them.

100% that, melta boost has smashed the fragile balanced which had finally been achieved between "Tanks" and "Anti Tank shooting". Now GW has to go at it again, for no good reason. W
hy-The- Fk ???
I also agree that S3 flashlights is fine on gardsmen and such. But anything rapid fire 1 costing more than 5 points should get bumped to S4, like veteran squads or gen cult neos (call them overcharged lasguns for example, they exist in the lore so...).

Gaurd regulars are NOT the only punch in gaurd.
Gaurd has plenty of units that can kill marines easily. Go buy a box of scions, sheesh. Put your two manticores in the back and fire away. There is a use for the 5 point swarm of bodies, and its good, but you don't have to make those ALSO able to go toe to toe one on one wiht the most powerful melee unit in the game to have them be viable.

Dearh godsh, what the game needs is not more expensive gaurd guns, it needs cheaper options for people like admech so they can fill out thier ranks with crappier armies that are close to gaurdlike (but not quite as good at being gaurd.)

Something like an admech apprentice squad .. servitors pressed into a troop role who are not yet highly modified for their new lives as half machines, handed hotshotlasguns (cause that makes them actually different but still s3) and placed in front. 5+save (they aren't half machines yet) and 4+bs (poor, simply human eyes) make these recruit level troops for admech suck on ice. Each squad (of 5 to 15, cause they aren't as numerous as gaurd) brings with it at most 1 heavy weapons specialist, their sargent, who is a single cataphron. While he is expensive he brings all their special weapons in a pile, and they cost only 7 points each (the cataphron is extra if taken, at his usual higher cost and gear cost.).

Fire warrior levies.
For the greater good, in times of desperation, average citizens of the community grab up arms from the stockpiles of the ethereals, undergo hours of intensive training, and are sent out to die horribly. Save 5+, bs5+, pistol 1, 12 inch, s3/1/2 (ok, so its sort of like a panzerfaust). They come in piles of 5 to 20 and I reckon they cost maybe 6 point each. A troop choice for the nonce, these concerned citizens know they are just a speedbump and their battle cries are horribly generic as they die in waves.

Ok, grots sort of do already do it, but maybe give them a 1 point melta grenade option (1 use only) that does d6 damage at ap-4 and forces any invuln shield to roll worst of two to avoid the hit.

You could extrapolate this sort of thing or refine it, but the point is, you don't have to throw out the gaurd's being special if you make other people special. The gaurd can say "sure, you going to rip my infantry up, but I have MORE of it." The admech can say "yeah, most fo them suck, but that one cataphron is going to kick your buttocks back into marine hell, did I mention they are stygies?." The tau player could say "yeah, but remember, all these firewarrior recruits suck, but each unsaved hit is a dead intercersser, blammo, AND they freely fire that in melee. I brought 3 full units just in case."

Each faction would have a pretty different flavor of cheap troop and evolve a pretty different flavor of expensive troop. Gaurd might be king of the cheap troops (I am aguardsman so I think should be, also that sort of matches fluff) but you would also see people shift the meta a bit to deal with larger numbers of troops. Maybe aggressors would stage a comeback as marines realize "crap, I have trouble killing them all." and you could get a proper horde or two in almost any faction, which means GW's prime directive (sell more overpriced plastic) would be also fullfilled, and marine players would have to work at it again.

Most nids players have shifted to a mix of gun lines and leaning hard into objectives. Very common you see 2 exocrines and hiveguards in some form. And while the SM codex is very good it has reported problems VS tyranids gun lines because it turns out a lot of D2 weapons at range is good.

This also remains true in the SM mirror match. With both sides fighting fire with fire. I would not call SM anything else then topp tier.

Meanwhile Harlequeens and Orks are doing very well for themselves. Daemon players as well it seems.

Anything not SM, Harlequeens, daemons and orks have a great challenge ahead of them outside some good match ups. (Nids gun line VS SM.)

Lots of people are saying space marines arent that over powered, I feel that is only slightly true because everyone is currently gunning their tactics towards anti-meta space marine strategies, including other marines, so no matter what you can expect your space marine army to face a list specifically geared towards fighting their list

It's actually the opposite.

The SM profile sucked for so long that some players still consider "skew" having anti elite infantry weapons in the army, while they find that anti horde and anti tank are obviously part of such lists.

Considering how common are elite infantry in the game, it was more of a "skew" the fact that you didn't consider that target during list building. Now they have the right weight on the meta.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
To beat eradicators, TAKE eradicators. Leave them in the spot to fire auspex scans with an ancient bearing banner right behind them.

Enter the enemy eradicators. Auspex scan. Fire twice. Hit on average 1 melta shot per arriving eradicators .. that kills a six man squad more or less immediately.

Then let them shoot at your (obviously terrifying) eradicators who sat out in the open looking bored. As each of their shots slams home, on a 4+ fire the eradicators double shot into them back as your guy dies. Killing, on average, another squad of six of them.

Move oyur second eradicator squad into EXACTLY the same position next turn, and watch your opponent's lip quiver as he says "My eradicators stay in orbit this turn...."

Or just play Harlequin, -1 to hit, -1 to wound, 3++ save. 5 troupes dealing out 5 melta shots and 40 attacks Str5 AP-2 rerolling to wound. Isn't it much more simple than taking 6 Eradicators and Ancient for countering enemy Eradicators?

You’ve just stated that a Shadowseer, a Troupe Master, a five model unit of Players, and a bunch of stratagems is more simple than a single unit with character support? Please explain your reasoning.

Lots of people are saying space marines arent that over powered, I feel that is only slightly true because everyone is currently gunning their tactics towards anti-meta space marine strategies, including other marines, so no matter what you can expect your space marine army to face a list specifically geared towards fighting their list

We're having to stop our garage hammer games as covid is finally hitting where I live, but we've played a TON of games of ninth. Honestly, the more we play the new marine 'dex, the more we start to question how "nerfed" it actually was ...

Tycho wrote:


We're having to stop our garage hammer games as covid is finally hitting where I live, but we've played a TON of games of ninth. Honestly, the more we play the new marine 'dex, the more we start to question how "nerfed" it actually was ...

Yeah, some people just look at tournament data and say that SM aren't that competitive. But in real life any SM list that placed high at tournaments look like the average SM list that anyone will play against regularly while other factions get results with skew lists that aren't that common.

The fact that a few skew lists can counter SM pretty well doesn't mean that SM are ok. They're so broken that they're at least good/solid mid tier no matter what list they bring. That's the problem.

 Blackie wrote:

They're so broken that they're at least good/solid mid tier no matter what list they bring. That's the problem.

I don't think that's necessarily a problem. The bigger issue right now is that basically no other army can currently do the same thing. Necrons are probably the closest right now to being able bring a solid mid-tier list regardless of army composition, with a few exceptions. If (and this is a big IF) GW can bring most other armies up to par with their new codexes, then this will be a great thing. Ideally all armies will be able to bring almost any unit/list and perform at least reasonably well; obviously this is not the case currently, and I think that's the real problem.

We'll, I see the situation as an half-glass, at least for now.

If SM are built in such a way that they cannot skew a lot, even if they tries, and more or less whatever they bring they stays on the same power level... We'll, I would consider that a success in game design and a good things by GW.

I honestly suspect that the simpler explanation is the one correct, and that they are simply too powerful... but due to Covid we haven't seen yet the full skewing that they can reach... So I'm not optimistic.

I still think you guys are mistaken trying to say space marines arent OP, it really just comes down to the fact that everyone wants to build their list to counter space marines

I think Marines have some of the strongest units and war gear at the moment. They have been upgraded to have full 9th edition glory. So, they probably do seem (or are) OP right now. Other armies don't have the stat line yet to complete with new wargear, and other armies', especially xenos, wargear hasn't been brought on par to deal with the new high toughness, high wound version of "elite". Only time will tell.

I think it could be a good standard to see how they bring other armies up to match though. Imagine Fire Dragons with weapons like what the eradicators have. Something that really matches the true intent of a tank hunting unit.

The Necrons book and what we've seen of the Death Guard bodes well. Seeing Dark Eldar will be a big moment as it will be the first book that isn't Marine/super resilient robot for us to see their 9th take on the other types of armies.

 Cybtroll wrote:
We'll, I see the situation as an half-glass, at least for now.

If SM are built in such a way that they cannot skew a lot, even if they tries, and more or less whatever they bring they stays on the same power level... We'll, I would consider that a success in game design and a good things by GW.

I honestly suspect that the simpler explanation is the one correct, and that they are simply too powerful... but due to Covid we haven't seen yet the full skewing that they can reach... So I'm not optimistic.

TTS is actually seeing a lot of activity right now, so the meta is evolving even without physical games. Those games though don't get recorded, so they don't really count for this discussion.

Also, the stats from 40kstats are ultra old, so they are also hardly an indication of the state of the game.

Tts isn't a reflection of the actual meta though.

If I want to play an army of units on TTS i don't physically own I can. This lets you try weird combinations as there's no financial/time cost to changing.

In the real world there are big costs especially in painting time it can take months to get a new army painted.

When I contrast what people own and can play with in RL rather than in TTS the two don't match.

U02dah4, you're absolutely right. Tournament lists are typically very different from what the majority of players brings and faces.

Datas are always useful, but never forget that they're not about 40k; they're about ultra competitive 40k, which is just a fraction of the whole picture.

That's why SM players can bully local gaming even if their army doesn't look "that" broken according to tournament data.

 Eldarain wrote:
The Necrons book and what we've seen of the Death Guard bodes well. Seeing Dark Eldar will be a big moment as it will be the first book that isn't Marine/super resilient robot for us to see their 9th take on the other types of armies.

Without a doubt. The meta between the top tier factions is actually fairly balanced IMO, just the drop off between good and bad factions is huge. If GW can level out the steepness of the cliff edge between top and bottom tier armies we could be in for a very healthy meta game!

On another note, I haven't seen anyone mention plasma inceptors getting blast yet. It's absolutely obscene. The fact that they can overcharge and hit that key S8 as well as re-roll 1s with character support...
Maybe I'm a little biased as a necrons player but I'll be biotransfered all over again if they aint the bane of my existence

Oh it has been mentioned many times.
Plasmaceptors are good contenders as the best unit in the marine codex.
And luckily their most devilish incarnation lasted only a few weeks, before DA lost access to weapons of the dark age.