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Hello guys,

I watched yesterday on TV the cult classic Dune from the 80s. It's not one of my favoured movies but you can clearly see the influences it had on the creation of the 40K setting.

One character who stood out from the rest was the vile Baron Harkonnen. After I have watched the movie, I googled a bit about it and found out that there will be a new one in the near future, if Covid doesn't impact the production in any major way.

So what's the deal with the Baron in this new movie? Well, according to the "interwebz" rumour mill claims that this villain can't be presented to the audience in 2020 like in the past because in addition to his disgusting sadistic nature as being a rapist and a murderer, he was also an obese homosexual.

Are those two traits problematic when associated with fictional villains nowadays? Rumour mill says "YES" because every other character in the setting is described as lithe and heterosexual. So if you continue along their train of thought you would marginalize people in real life as those two character types are attached to an unwholesome figure making fat and gay people look very bad.


What's your opinion on this?

I mean that just sounds like rumour mills going in hyperbolic discussion circles and reaching daft conclusions.

I mean, I am guessing that the Baron being a gay pedophile is not going to be making the final cut in the 2020 film, but they're 100% not going to make him not fat because the majority of people still see being fat as a personal moral failing.

A character being fat and/or ugly is still perfectly acceptable visual cinematic shorthand for conveying that a character is evil, don't worry.

Conveying his moral degeneracy by making him a gay pedophile, probably not so much nowadays. But that's also pretty much effortless to cut. It's mentioned multiple times in the book but IIRC there's literally only one time it's plot relevant and it's just kind of...mentioned. There's an assassination plot where someone puts a poison needle in the booty of a nubile male slave and he knows who did it because "he placed the needle in such a way that he KNEW I would be unable to slap dat booty! You were the culprit!"

....it's both very dumb, and very easy to replace by literally just not specifically calling out the gender of the booty that they needlized, because in the book it's just "something that just happened off camera that a person is currently being punished for"

Baron Harkonnen slept with at least one woman since we know he bore a child upon a Bene Gesserit, and they don’t do IVF.

Really, the Harkonnens are about excess and degeneracy that pushes beyond all boundaries. Baron Harkonnen is a like a real life (well, fictional) version of what QAnon thinks Tom Hanks is.

@Bob:

Maybe Tom Hanks should play the Baron.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Baron Harkonnen slept with at least one woman since we know he bore a child upon a Bene Gesserit, and they don’t do IVF.

Really, the Harkonnens are about excess and degeneracy that pushes beyond all boundaries. Baron Harkonnen is a like a real life (well, fictional) version of what QAnon thinks Tom Hanks is.

Sure. Though I also recall that the book feels the need to explicitly explain that fact as "a one-time idle curiosity." Baron Harkonnen is repeatedly and explicitly remarked to be gay, and his being gay is one of the ways that he is presented as a villainous other.

You can still have the core of the character without using that shorthand, and in a visual medium most of the times him being gay in the novel wouldn't really be applicable, because it's mostly internal when your perspective shifts to his. After all, he:

-is a giant jabba the hutt man held up by grav-suspensors
-is encrusted with expensive rings and jewels and furs and ostentatious displays of wealth
-owns lots of sex slaves to the point where that's apparently the most reliable thing he does every day and it's easier to try and poison him via booty needle than any other form of poison

I wonder if there's easier ways to convey that he's a symbol of monstrous consumption and excess in a visual film medium that would be less awkward than him having to voice out loud all his internal thoughts from the novel about HiS pReFeReNcEs

I'm with Bob, The Baron is basically a take on the assorted "mad" monarchs from history who regarded everyone else as disposable or exploitable because they are at the top of the pile and fup everyone else.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I'm with Bob, The Baron is basically a take on the assorted "mad" monarchs from history who regarded everyone else as disposable or exploitable because they are at the top of the pile and fup everyone else.

Ah yes, you know, those guys, from history. The past. The ones who were, in the past, obsessed with possessing and consuming everything personally so they became mad sociopaths who viewed other humans as disposable, consumable resources.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Bob:

Maybe Tom Hanks should play the Baron.

I’d watch that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Empire in Dune is very conservative compared to our society, so Baron Harkonnen might find such a lifestyle the most transgressive he can maintain? In God Emperor, we see a society that is less homophobic, and how a revived “Dune era” character feels about such things.

@TheScotsman, 50 internet points for you

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
@Bob:

Maybe Tom Hanks should play the Baron.

I’d watch that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Empire in Dune is very conservative compared to our society, so Baron Harkonnen might find such a lifestyle the most transgressive he can maintain? In God Emperor, we see a society that is less homophobic, and how a revived “Dune era” character feels about such things.

Sure. And there's tons and tons and tons of real world historical examples one might point to that indicate that there's a serious impulse to do "the thing that isn't allowed" when you're someone who's climbed the ladder to the top in a repressive society. Like I recall in history class how there was this one guy a really long time ago who was part of one group that said being gay was really bad and later they found out that a top level member of that group was actually secretly doing gay stuff. In history.

...That's generally not the kind of nuance you get in a movie, though. Considering the historical precedent of the Hays code, it probably makes more sense to just leave that detail out. In order to successfully portray baron harkonnen as gay but NOT give the audience the impression that him adopting stereotypical gay mannerisms as a shorthand to tell the audience that he's the bad guy, you'd have to first set up that he's an ultra-rich megalomaniac sociopath that wants to break all the established rules within the society he lives, and then you'd have to establish that the society he lives in is homophobic, which would probably involve setting up characters we're probably supposed to view as good guys as homophobic.

It'd be a lot of time and effort to include that detail when you could just as easily convey the fact that he's a consumption-obsessed megalomaniac via the much more obvious and iconic features of the character that fans tend to actually remember. Vis a Vis Science Fiction Adult-Sized Baby Bouncer.

In terms of historical characters?

Remember those are often character assassinations. Written by the victor to further embed their sheer righteousness, by portraying the vanquished as simply the worst, whether or not it was even remotely true. History being written by the victor and that.

Now.....onto Dune and the Baron Harkonnen.

His sexuality doesn’t really strike as a central part of his character. Instead, in the time it was written, it was simply another example of his corrupt ways. Making him just a little bit more bad and deserving of his fate.

So if it’s removed or even simply glossed over in the new film?

So. What.

He was never evil because he was on the other bus. Instead, his preference to bowl from the pavilion end was a symptom of his moral degeneracy - at the time the book was written.

Modern times, modern sensibilities. Nowadays, relatively few people really, truly care how one gets their jollies - provided it’s not a preference for the underaged, which remains a pretty universal and understandable source of outrage.

So removing any kind of focus on whether the Baron Harkonnen prefers Arthur or Martha hardly harms the character any, as there are so, so many more things to elicit the required loathing from the audience.

MadDocGrotsnik wrote:Martha

Why did you say that name?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

MadDocGrotsnik wrote:Martha

Why did you say that name?

Modern times, modern sensibilities. Nowadays, relatively few people really, truly care how one gets their jollies - provided it’s not a preference for the underaged, which remains a pretty universal and understandable source of outrage.

Which is explicitly the Baron's interest, by the way, to the point that young Feyd was one of his victims, but the Baron loses interest as he's gotten older.

Unfortunately, that is also often used as part of homophobia, that homosexuals are inevitably also pedophiles. [Which always strikes me as a weird stance, to be honest, since it implies that straight men 'inevitably' go after little girls, but any time I've brought up that challenge to people making the former assertion, they just can't process it and are literally baffled by it. On the upside it usually gets the subject dropped, even if it doesn't change any minds.].

So yeah, there are lots of ways the Baron Harkonnen can be handled poorly. I'm not terribly excited to see which option we'll see.

I'm surprised nobody pointed out that the film isn't in production, it was completed - and it's release has in fact been delayed due to Covid concerns (per the other thread.)

But yes, the sores and such in the Lynch version are visual shorthand invoking imagery from the AIDS crisis which was raging at the time of production, we've seen enough of the new Baron to know he isn't going to look like that.

Honestly, I think the 2000s miniseries walked the line on this pretty well, where they don't fault him his preference for men so much as the fact that he's a rapist.

Anyway, have a trailer:

As noted above, it’s odd that the Baron being fat is somehow essential to his character but him sexually assaulting boys and young men is not. I’d that guess if the character instead leched after girls and young women, no one would for a second wonder if that character flaw would be portrayed in the film.

 Manchu wrote:
As noted above, it’s odd that the Baron being fat is somehow essential to his character but him sexually assaulting boys and young men is not. I’d that guess if the character instead leched after girls and young women, no one would for a second wonder if that character flaw would be portrayed in the film.

Well I figure in part its because one is an element that is right there in your face every time the Baron appears in either the film or the book - ergo being overweight to the point of using anti-gravity suspenders.

Whilst the other is a background bit of information that fleshes him out more as a character, but is often only shown in hints or subtle character elements and otherwise doesn't form a core part of the story of Dune.

 Manchu wrote:
As noted above, it’s odd that the Baron being fat is somehow essential to his character but him sexually assaulting boys and young men is not. I’d that guess if the character instead leched after girls and young women, no one would for a second wonder if that character flaw would be portrayed in the film.

The opening post seemed to be going for “Hollywood wouldn’t dare be politically incorrect these days”, so that’s basically his point?

Neither does the Baron’s weight form a core part of the story, so he could as easily be portrayed as thin. And like I said, if he abused girls and young women we wouldn’t even be talking about how that might be too subtle or difficult to depict. It’s very easy to depict such things without bending over backwards, it’s done all the time.

For what it’s worth, Heretics of Dune comes down hard on the side of All Harkonnens Were Sexual Monsters rather than All Harkonnens Were Fat. The series made obesity a personal characteristic of the Baron Vladimir, whereas “rapes children” is a society trait, like logical Vulcan or greedy Ferenghi.

The prequel novels explain the Baron’s weight as the result of a disease willfully imparted upon him as a curse by Gaius Helen Mohiam, whom he — you guessed it — raped.

 Manchu wrote:
Neither does the Baron’s weight form a core part of the story, so he could as easily be portrayed as thin. And like I said, if he abused girls and young women we wouldn’t even be talking about how that might be too subtle or difficult to depict. It’s very easy to depict such things without bending over backwards, it’s done all the time.

Yes... the problem comes from the fact that 'rapist as monster' is easy, because its the result of the rapist making horrible choices of their own volition.
'Homosexual as monster' is more loaded because there is a long history of casting homosexuality as inherently monstrous (they're rapists _because_ they're gay). There's a world of difference between the two, and it shouldn't be hard to recognize that one requires more careful handling than the other. The subtext requires a second look, not dismissing concerns as 'very easy'

The same has come up lately with the 'noble gay sacrifice' trope, in which the gay hero commits suicide/self-sacrifice to 'redeem' themselves (of their 'sinful' ways). Its got a long dramatic history, but it isn't an appropriate story to tell anymore, at least partially because there is a notable difference in suicide rates among gay teens and that sort of thing (that they're wrong and death is an easy 'fix') doesn't need encouragement.

 Manchu wrote:
Neither does the Baron’s weight form a core part of the story, so he could as easily be portrayed as thin.

For what it's worth, I don't think they've ever really done a good job of depicting the Baron's weight either: he's not even 'very' fat by hollywood standards in either version, to the point where his floating tech comes across more as a strange eccentricity rather than a result of him being immobilized.

 Manchu wrote:
And like I said, if he abused girls and young women we wouldn’t even be talking about how that might be too subtle or difficult to depict. It’s very easy to depict such things without bending over backwards, it’s done all the time.

Off the top of my head Immortan Joe is a pretty solid contender for a 'straight' Baron Harkonnen from only five years ago, I think that's largely the level of many layers of disgusting I would hope the Baron himself would get in the upcoming movie.

Again, I think the 2000s mini is probably the best approach to this - the Baron can be a monster without his homosexuality being the thing that 'makes' him monstrous.

They can never do Baron Harkonnen right today because of the social environment today. Even the director admitted having the only gay character being a 'predatory homosexual" would be impossible today.

Also, and this is linked to his obesity, you can't do his backstory today even if you left our the 'predatory homosexual' part because Harkonnen was a victim of a sex crime committed by women.

The Bene gesserit (SP? Don't really care) wanted his genes to create their quizzat shaderak. He was essentially blackmailed into having sex with a woman in it to create an offspring as part of their superman project, making him a victim of a sex crime perpetrated by a woman in an all female organization.

If you tried to say a man was a victim of a sex crime committed by women just imagine ten million voices screaming "Misogamy!" so loud the moon shattered.

The first offspring harkonnen produced for the sisterhood was not acceptable and killed, and they marched another of their members to him and again coerced him into impregnating her.

(Dune's universe clearly lost the technology of artificial insemination, kinda like how pockets because a lost technology in star trek...)

This time harkonnen had enough of being bullied, so he drugged the gesserit into a helpless state and very brutally raped her to degrade her in relaliation.

Again, people would scream today that this implied the woman 'deserved' it. This time the screams of outrage would shatter venus and mars.

Finally harkonnen was deliberately infected with a disease by the bene gesserit that caused his obesity and was incurable. (Again, the 20th century technology of liposuction had somehow been lost between now and the dune timeline)

I suppose people would scream in outrage that this was making excuses for fat people not to lose weight and trigger another banshee wail which might take out mercury and most of the major asteroids like ceres and vesta.

So, no, Baron harkonnen will not be portrayed as he in in the novel, i can guarantee it. Now I'm sure he will be portrayed as evil, which he was in the novel, but the wrong things that were done to him will be magically erased.

 Manchu wrote:
The prequel novels explain the Baron’s weight as the result of a disease willfully imparted upon him as a curse by Gaius Helen Mohiam, whom he — you guessed it — raped.

I think it weakens the character to make his obesity a punishment rather than a consequence.

The Frank Dune books put a lot of time into the concept that humans and societies, uh, selectively breed towards divergent traits. A character’s physical appearance often conveys a lot about his or her personality, society, ancestry and purpose. “Space herpes made him fat” doesn’t quite have the same resonance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt Swain, is all of that from the Prequels?

WARNING: This thread has sharp edges. Handle at your own risk!

I agree, that prequel nonsense about his being infected with fatness really undermines the character. He is fat because he is an insecure, immoral, glutton; he consumes anything and everything he wants, because it proves he is more powerful than others. Also, as a consequence, whether he is heterosexual or homosexual is irrelevant (and can be dropped from the film IMHO), what’s more important is his attitude, I.e. a vile rapist for whom sex is a weapon, a power trip and a means of control and domination. Doesn’t really matter who’s on the other end of that, it’s still horrific.

 Manchu wrote:
Neither does the Baron’s weight form a core part of the story, so he could as easily be portrayed as thin. And like I said, if he abused girls and young women we wouldn’t even be talking about how that might be too subtle or difficult to depict. It’s very easy to depict such things without bending over backwards, it’s done all the time.

Interestingly, is it me or does the only bits we see of him, make him look buff and not fat?

Again. Consider historical portrayals of wealth, and villains.

Typically, male and female beauty standards are tied to wealth.

In terms of the U.K. this is why pale skin, and large bodies were considered attractive in the 18th Century. They were signs of wealth (pale skin = don’t work outside, being a chubster = can literally afford more than enough food). 20th Century? Tan = can afford multiple holidays in the sun. Toned body = bugger all else to do but hit the gym. Yes, these are all over simplified for effect. Yet all are of were considered Hallmarks of personal wealth.

Villains seriously suffered from character assassination.

Richard III for example was accused of all sorts by the victorious Tudor line. He was also made out to be a physical monstrosity. It wasn’t until his remains were found a wee while back that certain physical descriptions were fully debunked.

Obesity is one of the few things which remains a sign of excess, and possibly “low moral virtue”. And it’s a trope relied on in many media to paint someone as incredibly self indulgent.