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 kurhanik wrote:
40k in and of itself does not encourage hatred/fascism, but the Imperium of Man is a bit of fascist's wet dream at its surface level. Yes it is a failing state that has survived for as long as it did solely on momentum and just being huge, but looking at several of its key aspects: racial purity, big strongman figure of the Emperor, heavily militaristic, downright brutal to anyone who speaks against it, and so on. All points of interest to someone with a fascist streak to them.

Over the last few years I've observed a lot more people than I used to see argue that the Imperium is only in the state it is because of all the threats against it. That if it were able to exist on its own without being under constant attack, things would be better and it wouldn't be a failing state.

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but the argument perfectly mirrors fascist ideology, where the state must resort to extreme measures to deal with internal and external threats. The idea that a 'pure' society has been corrupted by evil both within and without is core to fascist thought and to the ethos of the Imperium. Which, I mean, given how the setting was originally on-the-nose satire, likely isn't a coincidence. It's just people swallowing that at face value that makes me think the satire is less recognized than it used to be.

Like I said before, if the setting is played straight rather than satirical, it's basically a fascist fantasy; a setting where their views are presented as completely necessary and justified. And while I completely doubt that that's GW's intent, there's only so subtle you can get with the satire before it stops looking satirical, especially when presented alongside completely straight-faced elements like Guilliman.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:Basically, people that are in favour of antifa actions often do consider the wanton acts of Antifa to be acceptable and commendable, even IF the local bakery which was owned by a conservative got smashed to bits because feth the fash.

I see - but is that enough to say that all people who oppose actual fascists should be discredited?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.

I oppose cultural racism and sexism, yes. No matter what culture or beliefs you hold, neither of those two are acceptable.

nvm

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
No it doesn't. It's taking the piss out on the most depraved aspects of human history. Relax, it's all fun and games, with good healthy irony galore.

Not sure if serious, but do you realize how privileged that statement is?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.

I oppose cultural racism and sexism, yes. No matter what culture or beliefs you hold, neither of those two are acceptable.

So you are frankly now culturally demanding a dominant right over budhists and a whole slew of south east asia. I'd say that would be culutrally not very inclusive of you.

First they came for the communists...


This thread is self-parody at this point.

I've honestly only skimmed it, but it does seem that way. lol

40k "encourages" hate the same way D&D "encourages" Satanism. Which is to say it doesn't. IDK if the OP was around for the "Satanic Panic" but that was every bit as silly as this is. Especially given GW's recent moves to make sure they are being more diverse and inclusive.

I've been in the hobby since the beginning. I have yet to meet this mythical person who takes things as seriously as the OP claims. I have met all kinds of people from all manner of countries, races and creeds. The one thing I haven't met was a fascist. Have I seen a few racist comments online? Yeah, and they are terrible and beed to be gone. But they are there because there are racists, not because 40K somehow encourages it in its players. If someone really did become a racist, fascist ideologue "because 40K encouraged them to", I would worry less about their socio-political leanings and more about the possibility of a mental deficiency of some sort.

TL;DR:

No. A game about toy soldiers does not encourage hate any more than a game about pretending to be wizards and knights encourages the real-life worship of demonic entities.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.

I oppose cultural racism and sexism, yes. No matter what culture or beliefs you hold, neither of those two are acceptable.

So you are frankly now culturally demanding a dominant right over budhists and a whole slew of south east asia. I'd say that would be culutrally not very inclusive of you.

What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?

If me supporting inclusivity is "not very inclusive", then what about their lack of inclusivity that I'm opposing?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

queen_annes_revenge wrote:Equivocation fallacy.. you're assuming the premise that antifa only 'oppose fascism' (despite that having its own problems with subjectivity) but this is incorrect as NO outlined above.

Lower case a, still.
No fallacy - you're pretending like I'm talking about an organisation. I'm not. I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?

Depends on how you plan on opposing it. If you mean using reason, and logical discussion to show people why they may be wrong, absolutely. If you mean punching people or any other violent acts, then no.

Also, I don't support trying to kick people out of a hobby. You can refuse them access to personal groups or clubs, but you don't have a right to demand a public company do so on your behalf across the entire enterprise.

The irony is that as dreadfully dystopian as the IoM is, it is actually not as bad as historical communism / fascism. The 40k IoM is basically the Holy Roman Empire in space while its Horus Heresy backstory is the Fall of Rome. Big E is not Hitler or Stalin, he is the Emperor Constantine (Byzantine Empire) mixed with Leto II Atreides (God-Emperor of Dune). You all need to remember the 40k writers are looting their ideas from a much bigger pool of history and fiction than just WW2.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?

Depends on how you plan on opposing it. If you mean using reason, and logical discussion to show people why they may be wrong, absolutely. If you mean punching people or any other violent acts, then no.

Reason and logical discussion first, yes. And if that fails, and they begin to act on their beliefs? You're damn right I don't have a problem going beyond words.

Also, I don't support trying to kick people out of a hobby.

I don't support people saying that Others shouldn't exist. Honestly, one seem far tamer than the other.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.

I oppose cultural racism and sexism, yes. No matter what culture or beliefs you hold, neither of those two are acceptable.

So you are frankly now culturally demanding a dominant right over budhists and a whole slew of south east asia. I'd say that would be culutrally not very inclusive of you.

What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?

If me supporting inclusivity is "not very inclusive", then what about their lack of inclusivity that I'm opposing?

I think he means that by opposing someone who would paint an army with swastikas it would not be inclusive towards asian people, because the swastika was/is originally an ancient symbol of...luck i think (please correct me on this!). At least i think that was the point.

I remember a small comic strip about a facebook convo between Captain America and Tony Stark, and "When did it stop being ok to punch Nazi's in the face"? And Tony was all, what if they aren't hurting anyone? I wish I could find it.

Tiberias wrote:
I think he means that by opposing someone who would paint an army with swastikas it would not be inclusive towards asian people, because the swastika was/is originally and ancient symbol of...luck i think (please correct me on this!). At least i think that was the point.

Ah - I only mentioned opposing cultural racism and sexism, not swastikas.
And yes, I *believe* it was a symbol of luck?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

Depends, are you also policing that culturally . because as i stated, Da bosses statement about the swastika alllready could be considered from differing cultural background as bigoted, even if it was against bigotry.

I oppose cultural racism and sexism, yes. No matter what culture or beliefs you hold, neither of those two are acceptable.

So you are frankly now culturally demanding a dominant right over budhists and a whole slew of south east asia. I'd say that would be culutrally not very inclusive of you.

What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?

If me supporting inclusivity is "not very inclusive", then what about their lack of inclusivity that I'm opposing?

Because the swastika in that region is a symbol of luck. Still in use by budhists and hindus.

 Da Boss wrote:
Edit: Ach, I better behave myself, I like this thread.

I would find a warhammer army painted with Swastikas and so on really distasteful and I would judge someone who had done that to their minis, for sure. At the very least for having poor taste and being lacking in common sense.

This was his statement, the cultural context of a symbol also matters, all you have shown in your statement is really that you seem to lack shades of thinking and can be percived as ignorant, and i don't mean that as an attack on you but assume in this little scenario the following:

An army has swastikas on it,
Da boss judges that army.
The army comes from SEA region and belongs to a budhist.
Your statement is then that he has to adapt or feck off.

Do you see the issue now?

Are we seriously discussing the drawing of swastickas as a symbol for good luck on models? Wow.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?

Depends on how you plan on opposing it. If you mean using reason, and logical discussion to show people why they may be wrong, absolutely. If you mean punching people or any other violent acts, then no.

Reason and logical discussion first, yes. And if that fails, and they begin to act on their beliefs? You're damn right I don't have a problem going beyond words.

Also, I don't support trying to kick people out of a hobby.

I don't support people saying that Others shouldn't exist. Honestly, one seem far tamer than the other.

Yeah, but how often does that happen, people trying to start ethnostates in a games workshop?

I fundamentally disagree about trying to kick people out of the hobby. It probably sounds fine in your head, removing 'fascists' but the problem lies in the practicality, and the fundamental issue of subjectivity when it comes to political opinion. Consider some people on the left would ascribe anyone right of centre a 'fascist'. This is how the purity spirals begin.

And this is why the better option is to leave people with their opinion (if they aren't open to reasonable discussion) and exercise your freedom of association, or in this case, don't.

The Hindu/Buddhist/Jainist swastika is not depicted at an angle like the Nazi swastika. It is also often more curved. They are very visually distinct.

Tycho wrote:

First they came for the communists...


This thread is self-parody at this point.

I've honestly only skimmed it, but it does seem that way. lol

40k "encourages" hate the same way D&D "encourages" Satanism. Which is to say it doesn't. IDK if the OP was around for the "Satanic Panic" but that was every bit as silly as this is. Especially given GW's recent moves to make sure they are being more diverse and inclusive.

As a side-note, it is just 1000% coconuts to me that there are people with US flags next to their name talking about the Satanic Panic in the past tense. Spreading conspiracy theories about your opponents being secret satanic baby-eating monsters is super on trend right now.

 kurhanik wrote:

I agree with you that not all memes = fascism, and that the Warhammer community as a whole has few of their ilk. However, if they are given a safe space to grow and thrive, you will see more fascists and racists feel welcome in the hobby space, to the detriment of all others.

I fear I'm at a loss as to what you mean here. What is the "hobby space" exactly?

 kurhanik wrote:
Once again, when your stance is "group X Y and Z are lesser than me and should not exist," even if the problem is tiny right now, you want to take some basic measures at least to make sure it doesn't become a full blown issue.

But does that not also describe anti-fascists and anti-racists? i.e. those who would say that fascists and racists are less than they are and should not exist?

I understand what you are saying, but it seems even more dangerous to dehumanise people in this manner. Especially given that one can be accused of fascism or racism with flimsy or even non-existant evidence, without ever being challenged.

Perhaps you personally would not use these labels to dehumanise any and all political opponents, but there are many who not only would but already have done so.

 kurhanik wrote:
When all it takes is saying "please don't espouse toxic rhetoric here," or "you are being toxic and telling someone they do not deserve to exist, please leave" to keep things safe and friendly, vigilance will pay off.

Sure. It's perfectly reasonable for gaming groups to ask people to tone down rhetoric or not get heavily into politics.

My concern is that many people here want measures that go far beyond that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

vipoid wrote:I'd like to answer this question from a slightly different perspective, if I may - even if fascists like 40k, why does it matter?

Seriously, why does it matter if fascists enjoy 40k and idolise the Imperium of Man?

In the same way it matters if fascists like anything.

Again, don't take this to mean "cancel everything because of the fascists!!", that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "if you don't tell fascists to feth off the moment you encounter them, you're doing it wrong".

40k is a collection of smaller communities, yes. There isn't one single Warhammer Community worldwide, short of consuming GW products. But at the very least, can we all not agree that fascists do not belong in anyone's gaming tables, because, yanno, they're fascists?

I say this not as any sort of defence of fascists/fascism, but rather because I believe that it's important to keep scale and perspective in mind when discussing this sort of thing.

I'm well aware of the scale. Fascists make up a small minority of 40k players. Is it larger than some other fandoms comparatively? Almost certainly, no doubts, but yes, it's still small.

Guess what? It doesn't matter, as far as I'm concerned. If there was 1 or 1000 fascists, they're still fascists, and none of them should be tolerated.
That's literally all we're saying here - that fascist is not to be tolerated. Can we agree on that single thing?

I have a question for you on this front - do you believe that all fascists are already beyond redemption?

Also, does it matter if they have not acted on their fascist beliefs in any way?

I ask because I find myself wondering if it is wise to try and ostracise them so completely from society. Surely making them into outsiders will only reinforce their negative beliefs with regard to society?

If anything, you might benefit from playing a few games with such individuals and realising that they are, in fact, still human. You may even find that your own desires are not so dissimilar from theirs, and that you can lead them towards a different, less-harmful path.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

queen_annes_revenge wrote:Equivocation fallacy.. you're assuming the premise that antifa only 'oppose fascism' (despite that having its own problems with subjectivity) but this is incorrect as NO outlined above.

Lower case a, still.
No fallacy - you're pretending like I'm talking about an organisation. I'm not. I'm talking about simply opposing fascism. Is there a problem with that?

Depends on how you plan on opposing it. If you mean using reason, and logical discussion to show people why they may be wrong, absolutely. If you mean punching people or any other violent acts, then no.

Also, I don't support trying to kick people out of a hobby. You can refuse them access to personal groups or clubs, but you don't have a right to demand a public company do so on your behalf across the entire enterprise.

Curiosity here - Why?

is a demand somehow separate from other speech? Both I and my partner worked retail for a long time, and I can tell you we got some way, way zanier demands than what you're describing - do people not have a right to make demands? or are you using the word "right" in a different context than you seem to be using it with the rest of your posts?

Demanding that a company do something is free speech. That company then choosing what or what not to do is also completely within their rights, they own their platforms they can decide what to allow or not to allow.

Tiberias wrote:


I think he means that by opposing someone who would paint an army with swastikas it would not be inclusive towards asian people, because the swastika was/is originally an ancient symbol of...luck i think (please correct me on this!). At least i think that was the point.

Close, the issue is the judge part in da bosses statement and the wholesale adoption of smudge.

Basically he wants to be inclusive, yet would judge someone over a symbol that has a completely different cultural value attributed there with his own standards.

The irony is that as dreadfully dystopian as the IoM is, it is actually not as bad as historical communism / fascism. The 40k IoM is basically the Holy Roman Empire in space while its Horus Heresy backstory is the Fall of Rome. Big E is not Hitler or Stalin, he is the Emperor Constantine (Byzantine Empire) mixed with Leto II Atreides (God-Emperor of Dune). You all need to remember the 40k writers are looting their ideas from a much bigger pool of history and fiction than just WW2.

It was the Roman Empire during the Great Crusade. In current times, I would say it's actually on-par or worse than the empires you mention. You have to over-look a lot to think otherwise.

Off-hand, they sacrifice 1000 innocent psykers a day to the Big-E so that his chair keeps running, Mutants are typically hunted and killed on sight (sometimes just for sport), aliens are generally killed onsite as there's a strict no-tolerance policy, you have Inquisitors who will happily condemn a planet to death because "Someone did a Heresy", etc. Yeah no. It's actually pretty bad.

I still think you have to be pretty broke in the brain to think it's a "pro-fascism" universe (or maybe just struggle with certain things in print - I know some intelligent people who, for whatever reason struggle with certain concepts when they read), but to compare it to anything real life and say "well it's better than ...." no. It isn't. lol

Are you trying to write this into a HS paper of some sorts? It seems you've put thought into this.

You should read some of the Commissar Cain books or some of the more funny Ork lore than taking the material seriously.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Hindu/Buddhist/Jainist swastika is not depicted at an angle like the Nazi swastika. It is also often more curved. They are very visually distinct.

Doesn matter, same ancestry of the symbol, even adopted into christian churches (which little Hitler got the symbol from) and then turned on it's head in meaning.
And therefore the demand can be considered frankly culturally exclusive

Is your army based around the iconography of ancient Siam? Huh, cool, might want to be careful with the swastikas considering the other connotations but it's abundantly clear from the context that's not what you were going for.

Are you throwing in swastikas where they make no sense for the sake of being edgy? Huh, cool, there's the door.

Context really does exist. I wish people would stop pretending it doesn't.

Not online - try not to remove context when highlighting someone’s point of view.

Not including the section that states “in a warhammer setting” dramatically changes it.

Historical and fantasy are entirely different.

Nazi iconography in a FoW type setting? That’s part of the games background and history.

The same in 40k? Why is it even there?
Inserting real world iconography or beliefs is just waiting for issues to arrive.
This is why people need to keep fantasy and reality separate.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Is your army based around the iconography of ancient Siam? Huh, cool, might want to be careful with the swastikas considering the other connotations but it's abundantly clear from the context that's not what you were going for.

Are you throwing in swastikas where they make no sense for the sake of being edgy? Huh, cool, there's the door.

Context really does exist. I wish people would stop pretending it doesn't.

context is nowadays out, discussione more often then not devolves into shouting matches.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?

If me supporting inclusivity is "not very inclusive", then what about their lack of inclusivity that I'm opposing?

Because the swastika in that region is a symbol of luck. Still in use by budhists and hindus.

I never mentioned the swastika though.

What I *said* was "What am I demanding? That all races and genders should be treated equally?"

But, as you want to talk about the swastika, I would expect my reaction to be tempered with context.
Now - cultural racism and sexism, that I was *actually* talking about - no, they have no place.

An army has swastikas on it,
Da boss judges that army.
The army comes from SEA region and belongs to a budhist.
Your statement is then that he has to adapt or feck off.

Do you see the issue now?

How many Buddhists do you see drawing swastikas on their models? Genuine question. Secondly, I would want more context into this Buddhist - for example, how those swastikas have been painted, their background and, well, external context.

Because, yanno, if someone comes up with a black slanted swastika on a white circle over a red background, and tells me that they're Buddhist, so it's fine, and they don't see the problem with that - I don't believe a word of what they're saying.

queen_annes_revenge wrote:Yeah, but how often does that happen, people trying to start ethnostates in a games workshop?

It's not about doing it in Games Workshop. It's about someone doing it at all, and opposing them at every step.
You know, because they're trying to start an ethnostate, as you put it.

It probably sounds fine in your head, removing 'fascists' but the problem lies in the practicality, and the fundamental issue of subjectivity when it comes to political opinion. Consider some people on the left would ascribe anyone right of centre a 'fascist'. This is how the purity spirals begin.

Again, but I've made it very clear what I'm talking about, and who I'm talking about.

You're just obsessed with this idea of mispersecution instead of even agreeing that fascists have no place.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Tiberias wrote:


I think he means that by opposing someone who would paint an army with swastikas it would not be inclusive towards asian people, because the swastika was/is originally an ancient symbol of...luck i think (please correct me on this!). At least i think that was the point.

Close, the issue is the judge part in da bosses statement and the wholesale adoption of smudge.

Basically he wants to be inclusive, yet would judge someone over a symbol that has a completely different cultural value attributed there with his own standards.

Yeah thanks for clarifying. I didn't want to misrepresent your point.