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Because all people are created equal, perhaps? Have you heard of this thing called Human Rights?

No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! 794924 11016456 wrote:

i come from the german sphere of language-cultural background.
I can differ between a maltese and an iron cross.
I also know about the rather hillarious context of the crusades which can be regarded as an issue out of a cultural view.

I am ortodox and I had a really fun time, when mr Pewdiepie was accused of being a nazi for wearing a Georgian cross.

I have asked this like five pages ago, but what is wrong with saying that in conclusion to OPs question: No, playing 40k does not support hatred or fascism.
There are however people among the fandom who have very problematic viewpoints, though they seem to be a minority. (I have not personally encountered them, but I believe the people who say they have)

If you encounter such a person, especially a younger person, the best course is to positively engage them and try to educate them that 40k actually serves as satire and a warning against fascism. If they don't listen or don't want to listen you can only avoid them and/or ask them to leave your gaming group.

The iron cross is a cross patée, but not all crosses patée are iron crosses.

How many people with swastikas all over their GW army mean it as a reference to Polynesian buddhists rather than a reference to nazis for shock value and/or support for fascism? We all know the answer to this one.

My favourite thing about this thread so far is that the OP posted it and then basically moonwalked out to watch the ensuing firestorm.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
By what definition? Speaking is an action. It is a physical act of vocalisation.

I see context has been abandoned totally and we're just getting into ludicrous pedantics. Whatever, you do you.


In that case, all I will say is that you may find yourself regretting this line of thought - sorry, this line of action - in the future.

You may well find that the authoritarian measures you support being used against fascists today are used against you or those close to you tomorrow.

the_scotsman wrote:
[


I don't think you have the right to demand a company ideologically cleanses itself to suit your beliefs.

So you're a free speech purist that doesn't draw the line at people saying that they're for genocide or murder or whatever, but you draw it at people telling companies to ideologically cleanse themselves to suit their beliefs?

Do you not see that as a fairly outwardly silly position to hold? Surely I can use my free speech to tell a company to do whatever it wants, and they have the freedom to do whatever they want to their property. After all, people have the freedom to tell companies to do a lot of much sillier things, or else I would have gotten a lot of people sent to jail for telling the companies I've worked for to give away their property to them for free or else they'll give us bad reviews on social media. That's like...speech robbery. Do you believe in removing that right as well, You Authoritarian You?

Not Online!!! wrote:

I can differ between a maltese and an iron cross.

The only difference is context because they are the same symbol physically. The context of the Black TEMPLARS is crusading Catholic knights TEMPLAR. The Iron Cross is just the use of the Maltese Cross by the Kingdom of Prussia and continued by the German Armed forces of WW2. Context.

Tiberias wrote:
I have asked this like five pages ago, but what is wrong with saying that in conclusion to OPs question: No, playing 40k does not support hatred or fascism.
There are however people among the fandom who have very problematic viewpoints, though they seem to be a minority. (I have not personally encountered them, but I believe the people who say they have)

If you encounter such a person, especially a younger person, the best course is to positively engage them and try to educate them that 40k actually serves as satire and a warning against fascism. If they don't listen or don't want to listen you can only avoid them and/or ask them to leave your gaming group.

I agree. I don't think that GW have done anything wrong, and I am happy that they are taking positive steps towards making things more inclusive. I don't think anyone has yet articulated what GW or the community should actually do differently about this.

But this thread has certainly been an eye-opener about some of the harmful voices in our hobby.

Tiberias wrote:
I have asked this like five pages ago, but what is wrong with saying that in conclusion to OPs question: No, playing 40k does not support hatred or fascism.
There are however people among the fandom who have very problematic viewpoints, though they seem to be a minority. (I have not personally encountered them, but I believe the people who say they have)

If you encounter such a person, especially a younger person, the best course is to positively engage them and try to educate them that 40k actually serves as satire and a warning against fascism. If they don't listen or don't want to listen you can only avoid them and/or ask them to leave your gaming group.

nothing, infact i think you'd be commendable for that action, allbeit i'd even remove the age classifyier.
excluding them and therefore forcing them to organise and institutionalise separately will only lead to further radicalisation and polarisation.

which brings back the other obvious issue and that is that GW has lost the perspective as to what 40k was in favor of selling an heroic story for the IoM , which is pretty obviously not really the correct way to go about, but then again selling SM as heros and only that makes bank for GW:

However, OLDSCHOOL 40k had a nice perspective upon fasciscts , they were big, dumb, violent, morons for violences sake with no morality beyond might makes right.
yes i am talking about the oldschool stormboyz.

I think we can reference the Reece from FLG debacle here now. when he put forward a Knight he painted with a "Death's head" symbol. A rather strong resemblence to the Death's Head symbol used by the Nazis. He immediately engaged in exactly the same defense that so many here are making today.

1. Calling all accusers soft, whiney, alt-left babies.
2. Calling the whole thing a made up conspiracy
3. Asking where is the problem? It's just a skull.
4. Again attacking his accusers.
5. Deleting all records of his knight and saying he never painted it and refusing to talk about it again.

One of the leaders of the biggest Wargamming conventions in the US was called out as supporting the alt-right fascist movement, and he instantly attacks everyone, refuses to admit there is a problem, and then deletes all records of the event in the first place. But yeah, 40k doesn't have a problem. Nothing to see here.

Karol wrote:

No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.

You are right, people are not equal. But the whole point of Human Rights is that all humans are worth the same regardless of that inequality.
There are people that provide more to the world, there are people that provide less, but regardless of that fact they are worth the same, they have the same rights even if they don't have the same capabilities.

In fact, having less capabilities tends to afford even more rights to try to account for the inequality.

soviet13 wrote:
How many people with swastikas all over their GW army mean it as a reference to Polynesian buddhists rather than a reference to nazis for shock value and/or support for fascism? We all know the answer to this one.

Also true, but how many Guard armies field commisars . the issue with symbols is that at most you can dictate 50 % the other 50 are interpreted by those regarding the symbol and what it is meaning

I don't think W40k serve as satire, it is only a concentrate of the worst of the worst of the worst the humans were able to create. For example the Imperial Truth is extremely similar to the atheistic ideology professed by the enlightenment and the way the Emperor erased every religion from Terra, is very close to the way the Jacobin government of Robespierre tried to eradicate the religion form France after the revolution; in fact the modern concept of genocide (but also the one of the political persecutions) was conceived during that time.

Anyway the history taught us that the worst persecutions and crimes against the humanity, were done by the people who wanted create a world without persecutions and crimes against the humanity.

Karol wrote:

Because all people are created equal, perhaps? Have you heard of this thing called Human Rights?

No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.

That's not at all what "all people are created equal" means.

It means that all people have the *right* to be treated equally. ie, without discrimination.

vipoid wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Speaking is an action. It is a physical act of vocalisation.

I see context has been abandoned totally and we're just getting into ludicrous pedantics. Whatever, you do you.

The only ludicrous idea I see is that someone can say the most awful, heinous gak imaginable, and walk away scot free because "I only said it, it's not like it was real".

Horsegak. If you express racist beliefs, through word or fist, you are still expressing beliefs of racism.

In that case, all I will say is that you may find yourself regretting this line of thought - sorry, this line of action - in the future.

What have I got fear? I'm not a racist.

You may well find that the authoritarian measures you support being used against fascists today are used against you or those close to you tomorrow.

Ah, the old "don't say mean things about the Nazis because someone might say mean things to youuuuuu" chestnut. Do you also oppose prison sentences, because you might also be imprisoned?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can reference the Reece from FLG debacle here now. when he put forward a Knight he painted with a "Death's head" symbol. A rather strong resemblence to the Death's Head symbol used by the Nazis. He immediately engaged in exactly the same defense that so many here are making today.

1. Calling all accusers soft, whiney, alt-left babies.
2. Calling the whole thing a made up conspiracy
3. Asking where is the problem? It's just a skull.
4. Again attacking his accusers.
5. Deleting all records of his knight and saying he never painted it and refusing to talk about it again.

One of the leaders of the biggest Wargamming conventions in the US was called out as supporting the alt-right fascist movement, and he instantly attacks everyone, refuses to admit there is a problem, and then deletes all records of the event in the first place. But yeah, 40k doesn't have a problem. Nothing to see here.

In your example, Reece is the problem, not 40k.

Tyran wrote:

Karol wrote:
No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.

You are right, people are not equal. But the whole point of Human Rights is that all humans are worth the same regardless of that inequality.
There are people that provide more to the world, there are people that provide less, but regardless of that fact they are worth the same, they have the same rights even if they don't have the same capabilities.

In fact, having less capabilities tends to afford even more rights to try to account for the inequality.

Well put.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

You're still telling me what you're against rather than what you're for. Here's an example: I'm for a Liberal Democracy (Liberal as in Liberty). I'm for freedom of speech, equal treatment under the law for all, personal ownership of property, capitalism with regulations, the right to defend yourself and your property, social assistance to those in need, and a financially responsible government. Currently there is no government on Earth that offers all these things.

Being for Democracy basically puts me in opposition to fascism and communism by default, as well as a bunch of other things.
Being for equal treatment under law for all puts me in opposition to sexism and bigotry (I equate bigotry and racism as the same thing, I know some people thing racism requires power)

But saying you're against facism isn't useful information. Lots of terrible people, like Stalin, were against fascism.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What have I got fear? I'm not a racist.

How do we know that? You've already proven yourself to be a fascist.

And don't try to deny it - fascists don't get to have opinions.

 Tyran wrote:

Karol wrote:

No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.

You are right, people are not equal. But the whole point of Human Rights is that all humans are worth the same regardless of that inequality.
There are people that provide more to the world, there are people that provide less, but regardless of that fact they are worth the same, they have the same rights even if they don't have the same capabilities.

In fact, having less capabilities tends to afford even more rights to try to account for the inequality.

Human rights are racist if it does not include all life, including plants.

 Rismonite wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can reference the Reece from FLG debacle here now. when he put forward a Knight he painted with a "Death's head" symbol. A rather strong resemblence to the Death's Head symbol used by the Nazis. He immediately engaged in exactly the same defense that so many here are making today.

1. Calling all accusers soft, whiney, alt-left babies.
2. Calling the whole thing a made up conspiracy
3. Asking where is the problem? It's just a skull.
4. Again attacking his accusers.
5. Deleting all records of his knight and saying he never painted it and refusing to talk about it again.

One of the leaders of the biggest Wargamming conventions in the US was called out as supporting the alt-right fascist movement, and he instantly attacks everyone, refuses to admit there is a problem, and then deletes all records of the event in the first place. But yeah, 40k doesn't have a problem. Nothing to see here.

In your example, Reece is the problem, not 40k.

... I thought we'd all agreed that 40k wasn't the issue, yes?

40k's fine, but the idiots who use it to express fascist beliefs are a problem - unfortunately, some people in this thread think courting fascists is fine.

Karol wrote:

Because all people are created equal, perhaps? Have you heard of this thing called Human Rights?

No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.

I'll reiterate whoever it was earlier who said it: Jesus Christ.

Firstly, "equality" in this context does not mean everyone is exactly the same. That's obviously untrue. What it means is all people should be treated equally and no person is intrinsically worth less than another. Some people may make personal choices that diminish the happiness and wellbeing of themselves or others but the basic idea of inclusivity and equality is that they're still fundamentally human and not inherently lesser because of that. Being autistic doesn't make you less of a person than someone else. Also, people generally aren't born geniuses and it's tremendously reductive and dismissive to assume they are.

I mean this with all sincerity Karol, but I hope you find a way to expand your very narrow worldview and experience and understand more about humanity and different cultures as you grow up. I understand you're still young so the good news is time is most definitely on your side.

vipoid wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
No it isn't. By definition.

By what definition? Speaking is an action. It is a physical act of vocalisation.

I see context has been abandoned totally and we're just getting into ludicrous pedantics. Whatever, you do you.


In that case, all I will say is that you may find yourself regretting this line of thought - sorry, this line of action - in the future.

You may well find that the authoritarian measures you support being used against fascists today are used against you or those close to you tomorrow.

 John Prins wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm for fascists getting lost from my community. I'm for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views.

Is that a problem?

You're still telling me what you're against rather than what you're for. Here's an example: I'm for a Liberal Democracy (Liberal as in Liberty). I'm for freedom of speech, equal treatment under the law for all, personal ownership of property, capitalism with regulations, the right to defend yourself and your property, social assistance to those in need, and a financially responsible government. Currently there is no government on Earth that offers all these things.

Being for Democracy basically puts me in opposition to fascism and communism by default, as well as a bunch of other things.
Being for equal treatment under law for all puts me in opposition to sexism and bigotry (I equate bigotry and racism as the same thing, I know some people thing racism requires power)

But saying you're against facism isn't useful information. Lots of terrible people, like Stalin, were against fascism.

He told you he was for "for an inclusive community where not one member holds racist, sexist, bigoted views."

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can reference the Reece from FLG debacle here now. when he put forward a Knight he painted with a "Death's head" symbol. A rather strong resemblence to the Death's Head symbol used by the Nazis. He immediately engaged in exactly the same defense that so many here are making today.

1. Calling all accusers soft, whiney, alt-left babies.
2. Calling the whole thing a made up conspiracy
3. Asking where is the problem? It's just a skull.
4. Again attacking his accusers.
5. Deleting all records of his knight and saying he never painted it and refusing to talk about it again.

One of the leaders of the biggest Wargamming conventions in the US was called out as supporting the alt-right fascist movement, and he instantly attacks everyone, refuses to admit there is a problem, and then deletes all records of the event in the first place. But yeah, 40k doesn't have a problem. Nothing to see here.

I have no idea who Reece is, and know nothing about this event; but how did we (you) jump from painting a skull and crossbones (a relatively common symbol historically) on a model to supporting fascists?

Not Online!!! wrote:

soviet13 wrote:
How many people with swastikas all over their GW army mean it as a reference to Polynesian buddhists rather than a reference to nazis for shock value and/or support for fascism? We all know the answer to this one.

Also true, but how many Guard armies field commisars . the issue with symbols is that at most you can dictate 50 % the other 50 are interpreted by those regarding the symbol and what it is meaning

Well it's not regardless of the meaning, is it. There is always a context.

I suspect that if Commissars were introduced tomorrow they might be seen differently. As it is they have the advantage of being a relatively small and inconspicuous part of the guard, and of having been a presence since practically the beginning. I'm not aware of anyone IRL being upset about them. But I am sure that turning up to your local GW with swastika guard would create a very different reaction.

 SolarCross wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

I can differ between a maltese and an iron cross.

The only difference is context because they are the same symbol physically. The context of the Black TEMPLARS is crusading Catholic knights TEMPLAR. The Iron Cross is just the use of the Maltese Cross by the Kingdom of Prussia and continued by the German Armed forces of WW2. Context.

But they have a different shape.

But the whole point of Human Rights is that all humans are worth the same regardless of that inequality.

But they aren't. Lets say one family has a healthy baby, who will grow up and will be able to help and take care of its parents when they are old. No super star, no mega sportsman. Regular person. the other family has a sick baby that doesn't die, the whole family is burdened with it their entire life, and when the parents die, the state has to pretend that it is taking care of it. There is no way the two people are equal. And this europe example. Imagine China where the son is socialy and by law responsible for taking care of their parents, when they are old, and a daughter is not. You want to tell me that when they had a 2+1 policy, a boy was not worth more the a girl? of course he was, the family would have to be either super rich, insane or have children outside of the prescribed ones to think otherwise.

And this is just normal good people. There is no way someone is going to tell me that the worth of some pedophile is the same as the children he hurt, and that he should have the same rights as everyone else. There is reason why guys like that die in prisons, prisons aren't places for nice people, but even those nice people know that "some weeds are to be pulled" as the saying goes. People are not even equal in super rich western sociaties.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can reference the Reece from FLG debacle here now. when he put forward a Knight he painted with a "Death's head" symbol. A rather strong resemblence to the Death's Head symbol used by the Nazis. He immediately engaged in exactly the same defense that so many here are making today.

1. Calling all accusers soft, whiney, alt-left babies.
2. Calling the whole thing a made up conspiracy
3. Asking where is the problem? It's just a skull.
4. Again attacking his accusers.
5. Deleting all records of his knight and saying he never painted it and refusing to talk about it again.

One of the leaders of the biggest Wargamming conventions in the US was called out as supporting the alt-right fascist movement, and he instantly attacks everyone, refuses to admit there is a problem, and then deletes all records of the event in the first place. But yeah, 40k doesn't have a problem. Nothing to see here.

I have no idea who Reece is, and know nothing about this event; but how did we (you) jump from painting a skull and crossbones (a relatively common symbol historically) on a model to supporting fascists?

Oh yeah, wow it's just a skull and crossbones. So I guess it's offended people that need to stop in that example.

Like this whole thread btw.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can reference the Reece from FLG debacle here now. when he put forward a Knight he painted with a "Death's head" symbol. A rather strong resemblence to the Death's Head symbol used by the Nazis. He immediately engaged in exactly the same defense that so many here are making today.

1. Calling all accusers soft, whiney, alt-left babies.
2. Calling the whole thing a made up conspiracy
3. Asking where is the problem? It's just a skull.
4. Again attacking his accusers.
5. Deleting all records of his knight and saying he never painted it and refusing to talk about it again.

One of the leaders of the biggest Wargamming conventions in the US was called out as supporting the alt-right fascist movement, and he instantly attacks everyone, refuses to admit there is a problem, and then deletes all records of the event in the first place. But yeah, 40k doesn't have a problem. Nothing to see here.

I have no idea who Reece is, and know nothing about this event; but how did we (you) jump from painting a skull and crossbones (a relatively common symbol historically) on a model to supporting fascists?

Here, again we see equivocation. It wasn't a skull and crossbones. It was a totenkopf. https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/totenkopf

Stop trying to justify it and just accept it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:

Because all people are created equal, perhaps? Have you heard of this thing called Human Rights?

No they aren't. I am autistic, I was born like that. There is no way in the world for me to be equal to someone who was born without autism. At the same someone who was born a genius, like lets say the guy who made the polio vaccine is worth incomperably more to the world, then some dude that spends his life at the 24 alcohol store. People aren't and never will be equal, they are too different for it to ever be true.

That's not at all what "all people are created equal" means.

It means that all people have the *right* to be treated equally. ie, without discrimination.

vipoid wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Speaking is an action. It is a physical act of vocalisation.

I see context has been abandoned totally and we're just getting into ludicrous pedantics. Whatever, you do you.

The only ludicrous idea I see is that someone can say the most awful, heinous gak imaginable, and walk away scot free because "I only said it, it's not like it was real".

Horsegak. If you express racist beliefs, through word or fist, you are still expressing beliefs of racism.

In that case, all I will say is that you may find yourself regretting this line of thought - sorry, this line of action - in the future.

What have I got fear? I'm not a racist.

You may well find that the authoritarian measures you support being used against fascists today are used against you or those close to you tomorrow.

Ah, the old "don't say mean things about the Nazis because someone might say mean things to youuuuuu" chestnut. Do you also oppose prison sentences, because you might also be imprisoned?

I am not sure to be honest about the speech is an action thing, but the one thing that is very important to me to point out is that in basically every country on earth, there are limits to free speech, even in the US (as far as I'm aware). You can not incite violence against another person and commiting perjury is also prohibited, they are considered crimes in fact.
This might seem obvious, but my point is that it seems to me that your conversation about this topic with other uses boils down to where to draw the line of free speech. I do not have an answer to that question, I only know that a society has to think carefully about where to draw the line.

If I misread the conversation, or misrepresented a point then I apologize and feel free to correct me.

soviet13 794924 11016488 wrote:

Well it's not regardless of the meaning, is it. There is always a context.

I suspect that if Commissars were introduced tomorrow they might be seen differently. As it is they have the advantage of being a relatively small and inconspicuous part of the guard, and of having been a presence since practically the beginning. I'm not aware of anyone IRL being upset about them. But I am sure that turning up to your local GW with swastika guard would create a very different reaction.

That is because in the west, that didn't get to expiriance the goodness of living in a soviet state, for some ununderstandable reasons soviets are not considers to be worse then nazis. Even with a higher head count, and bigger economic and social impact.

You can not incite violence against another person and commiting perjury is also prohibited, they are considered crimes in fact.

But that is just words. Yes the ruling party or the ones that control the courts can do it, but if the oppossition gets targeted in the same way, it just gets ignored. And that is true for every country from China and Russia to US or UK.