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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm a little disappointed in the Outrider, Inceptor Eradicator changes.

Outriders really didn't need a points increase.

Only plasma inceptors needed a point increase.

I think Eradicators definitely needed a change, but I don't think points is the way--I think they need to lose the shoot twice rule. Give them a different bonus (like maybe +1 to hit like they did for the Repulsor Executioner) for shooting the same target.

I do like the FAQ/Errata and points changes overall, aside from Tau. Man, they just cannot stop kicking Tau while they're down, can they?
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

You're always better off with the equivalent amount of points of any W1 model in the army.


Looking over the data sheet, yeah; I think you'd generally be better off more bodies right now. Without actual experience either with or against it, my gut says the Reanimator probably should stay in the 80-100pts range but increase Toughness and/or Wounds. That way it doesn't become too affordable to move away from being a support element (still unlikely), but also have the resiliency to force and opponent to expend more damage dealing assets than they might want to over high priority targets.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Quasistellar wrote:
I'm a little disappointed in the Outrider, Inceptor Eradicator changes.

Outriders really didn't need a points increase.

Only plasma inceptors needed a point increase.

I think Eradicators definitely needed a change, but I don't think points is the way--I think they need to lose the shoot twice rule. Give them a different bonus (like maybe +1 to hit like they did for the Repulsor Executioner) for shooting the same target.

I do like the FAQ/Errata and points changes overall, aside from Tau. Man, they just cannot stop kicking Tau while they're down, can they?

Honestly, I think removing the CORE keyword from Eradicators would have made enough of a difference.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Rihgu wrote:

You select units for WWSWF before the battle begins, which happens after deployment (step 14) as best as I can tell?
And for your second question I believe so, and that would be funny but it's spending 700 points and some CP to protect 5VP.


I went through the book and it doesn't seem like there is such a section in the mission rules. I think we might see 3 man LRBTs become popular. Fair point on the other one.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

You're always better off with the equivalent amount of points of any W1 model in the army.


Looking over the data sheet, yeah; I think you'd generally be better off more bodies right now. Without actual experience either with or against it, my gut says the Reanimator probably should stay in the 80-100pts range but increase Toughness and/or Wounds. That way it doesn't become too affordable to move away from being a support element (still unlikely), but also have the resiliency to force and opponent to expend more damage dealing assets than they might want to over high priority targets.

Honestly based on the size I'm surprised it doesn't have at minimum 12 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darsath wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
I'm a little disappointed in the Outrider, Inceptor Eradicator changes.

Outriders really didn't need a points increase.

Only plasma inceptors needed a point increase.

I think Eradicators definitely needed a change, but I don't think points is the way--I think they need to lose the shoot twice rule. Give them a different bonus (like maybe +1 to hit like they did for the Repulsor Executioner) for shooting the same target.

I do like the FAQ/Errata and points changes overall, aside from Tau. Man, they just cannot stop kicking Tau while they're down, can they?

Honestly, I think removing the CORE keyword from Eradicators would have made enough of a difference.

Or remove the double shooting since they did it with Aggressors.

Seriously the lack of consistency there is fething mind boggling. Either let Gravis units on foot double shoot when standing still or don't. Just one unit getting it and the other losing it for reasons is stupid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 19:52:03


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






The Newman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Seems to me like GW are actually basing points for units and weapons on the individual codex.

If GW believe cultists are stronger in CSM armies than they are in DG (I'd probably agree) then they should be different points.

The DG helbrute is 5pts more than the CSM one. I imagine that is taking into account the contagions etc it will be benefiting from.

A lot of people complained when Tacs weren't cheaper than CSM despite access to doctrines etc...
This guy gets it!

Then please explain why Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Sicarans, Leviathans, Fellblades, Fire Raptors, etc, etc, etc still cost exactly the same for loyalists and CSM?

Because a Chaos Lord can still grant rerolls to every vehicle in range and loyalists commanders can't?


Lol, because it makes so much sense to make every unit overpriced because youre assuming theyre getting auras instead of making the lord itself more expensive.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The Newman wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
Seems to me like GW are actually basing points for units and weapons on the individual codex.

If GW believe cultists are stronger in CSM armies than they are in DG (I'd probably agree) then they should be different points.

The DG helbrute is 5pts more than the CSM one. I imagine that is taking into account the contagions etc it will be benefiting from.

A lot of people complained when Tacs weren't cheaper than CSM despite access to doctrines etc...
This guy gets it!

Then please explain why Land Raiders, Predators, Vindicators, Sicarans, Leviathans, Fellblades, Fire Raptors, etc, etc, etc still cost exactly the same for loyalists and CSM?

Because a Chaos Lord can still grant rerolls to every vehicle in range and loyalists commanders can't?


Lol, because it makes so much sense to make every unit overpriced because youre assuming theyre getting auras instead of making the lord itself more expensive.


On the other end of the spectrum, "because it makes so much sense to make the chaos lord overpriced because you're assuming it's giving 3 fellblades re-roll"

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I read the FAQ and the very first thing I did was email the faq address to tell them the real problem with Abh the Witch is that it's not in Purge the Enemy where it clearly belongs. I'd bet they're going to get a lot of feedback to that effect before the end of the day.


Hopefully, but I actually sent them that feedback when the mission pack was released. So ......

Honestly based on the size I'm surprised it doesn't have at minimum 12 wounds.


Agreed. The biggest issue is how trivial it is to kill while also being super difficult to hide. Make it so that it's just slightly harder to 1-shot it, and 80 points becomes more palatable. Right now though, I would agree that even with the points drop, you're still better off with more bodies.

EDIT:

You could also maybe give it a strat to increase it's range for a turn or something. Part of the problem with it is that it needs to be super close to your warriors to do its thing, and you want those warriors moving up to take objectives. So you HAVE to expose it, which is easy to do because it's fething giant for how few wounds it has.

The other option is to plunk it in the backfield to boost any objective camping bodies you may have, but even then, you're far better off with more 1 wound bodies given how the new RP work anyway ...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/08 20:16:52


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Darsath wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
I'm a little disappointed in the Outrider, Inceptor Eradicator changes.

Outriders really didn't need a points increase.

Only plasma inceptors needed a point increase.

I think Eradicators definitely needed a change, but I don't think points is the way--I think they need to lose the shoot twice rule. Give them a different bonus (like maybe +1 to hit like they did for the Repulsor Executioner) for shooting the same target.

I do like the FAQ/Errata and points changes overall, aside from Tau. Man, they just cannot stop kicking Tau while they're down, can they?

Honestly, I think removing the CORE keyword from Eradicators would have made enough of a difference.


Not at all. The issue with the eradicators is they're a complete fire-and-forget independent package. If they survive after they turn up and wreck things its a complete bonus and they don't need support of any kind.
They just turn up, double tap at 24" and keep moving until something stomps on them.

+15 points for each trio doesn't matter. Spending CP on them doesn't matter. Being in auras doesn't matter. They're just doing their thing, double tapping any sort of targets they like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 20:08:59


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Rihgu wrote:

On the other end of the spectrum, "because it makes so much sense to make the chaos lord overpriced because you're assuming it's giving 3 fellblades re-roll"



well.. yeah it does. Its the chaos lord's ability, not the fellblades. Its the same problem with the Guilliman tax that caused the mid 8th marine slump.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

It is pretty comparable to a canoptec spider. Their points should be much closer.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Xenomancers wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

It is pretty comparable to a canoptec spider. Their points should be much closer.


Don't say that. GW will raise the point cost of the spyder instead.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Rihgu wrote:

On the other end of the spectrum, "because it makes so much sense to make the chaos lord overpriced because you're assuming it's giving 3 fellblades re-roll"



well.. yeah it does. Its the chaos lord's ability, not the fellblades. Its the same problem with the Guilliman tax that caused the mid 8th marine slump.


Right it is the age old problem, but eventually lords won't be giving super heavies rerolls. For now they do - whether this is worth distinction I don't know.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





It is pretty comparable to a canoptec spider. Their points should be much closer.


It is comparable and the spider's a good example because it can also get some cover from time to time. lol

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

It is pretty comparable to a canoptec spider. Their points should be much closer.


I was thinking the same thing.

I do understand the hesitance by GW to make the Reanimator too good. If you get too many overlapping defensive buffs on a unit (warriors) it can break the game. Currently Warriors seem really good without help from a Reanimator. There's a lot of things that buff warriors defensively that people aren't even using because they're so good just as-is, like Szeras, the Reanimator, and Ghost Arks for example.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I was thinking the same thing.

I do understand the hesitance by GW to make the Reanimator too good. If you get too many overlapping defensive buffs on a unit (warriors) it can break the game. Currently Warriors seem really good without help from a Reanimator. There's a lot of things that buff warriors defensively that people aren't even using because they're so good just as-is, like Szeras, the Reanimator, and Ghost Arks for example.


That's the biggest problem with it, and with the Necron codex as a whole - too much nuance - too many ways to do the exact same thing for no good reason, and with some of those ways being WAY better/worse than others. Phil Kelly's special non-Eldar trademark frankly. Would not be surprised to find out he wrote it. It feels really similar to his 6th ed CSM book.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Quasistellar wrote:I'm a little disappointed in the Outrider, Inceptor Eradicator changes.

Outriders really didn't need a points increase.

Only plasma inceptors needed a point increase.

I think Eradicators definitely needed a change, but I don't think points is the way--I think they need to lose the shoot twice rule. Give them a different bonus (like maybe +1 to hit like they did for the Repulsor Executioner) for shooting the same target.

I do like the FAQ/Errata and points changes overall, aside from Tau. Man, they just cannot stop kicking Tau while they're down, can they?


My, preferred, solution to the Eradicator problem is (as usual) a stratagem for their special ability: basically rapid fire for Gravis with the stipulation that they can't target different units. Such that ANY gravis unit can do it. So aggressors can have their double-tap back, too, but only against a single target. I hate "free" stuff with a burning passion. So costing some resources, CP obviously in this case, to give them a strong ability is perfectly fine imo. Also, give aggressors back their advance and fire without penalty power. That was just stupid.


Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tycho wrote:
I don't think you'd take it by choice - but if you were running it for fun, I think 80 points is about right for it not to be especially debilitating.


Having tried it in a ton of games, I respectfully disagree. It's just so easy for a lot of armies to basically 1-shot. I wouldn't consider it until we hit maybe 70. At that point you could make the argument that it's too cheap for it's abilities, but the problem is, GW fethed up here with the model. It's too difficult to hide, and WAY too squishy, so even though it's got decent abilities and a decent strat, it's pretty much a 1-turn auto-kill for most opponents.

You're always better off with the equivalent amount of points of any W1 model in the army.


Looking over the data sheet, yeah; I think you'd generally be better off more bodies right now. Without actual experience either with or against it, my gut says the Reanimator probably should stay in the 80-100pts range but increase Toughness and/or Wounds. That way it doesn't become too affordable to move away from being a support element (still unlikely), but also have the resiliency to force and opponent to expend more damage dealing assets than they might want to over high priority targets.


Reanimators are intrinsically broken. They need LoS rules granted to them by warriors...or QS at a minimum. Until then they'll be auto-take or auto-avoid depending on their points value; I err-on auto-avoid even at 80 though.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Bitharne wrote:


My, preferred, solution to the Eradicator problem is (as usual) a stratagem for their special ability: basically rapid fire for Gravis with the stipulation that they can't target different units. Such that ANY gravis unit can do it. So aggressors can have their double-tap back, too, but only against a single target. I hate "free" stuff with a burning passion. So costing some resources, CP obviously in this case, to give them a strong ability is perfectly fine imo. Also, give aggressors back their advance and fire without penalty power. That was just stupid.



Aggressors almost always went against one target anyway. Stripping that ability from Eradicators would mean they need to be cheaper. As it stands a MM Attack Bike is 55. Same toughness, more move, extra wound, always fires two shots, and ignores move penalties. Its a pretty fine line to walk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bitharne wrote:
Reanimators are intrinsically broken. They need LoS rules granted to them by warriors...or QS at a minimum. Until then they'll be auto-take or auto-avoid depending on their points value; I err-on auto-avoid even at 80 though.


This becomes a difficult thing to place, too now that you can make Necron blobs your most expensive unit with double obsec. They're probably too expensive, but there's a line where they might wind up tilting certain lists over.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 00:08:27


 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Or remove it and increase the price of the Attack Bike.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Eldarain wrote:
Or remove it and increase the price of the Attack Bike.


That would be a double nerf, I am not sure what it would suppose to achive, specialy considering that harliequins were not change in the faq batch at all.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Karol wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Or remove it and increase the price of the Attack Bike.


That would be a double nerf, I am not sure what it would suppose to achive, specialy considering that harliequins were not change in the faq batch at all.

They also need to have their AT brought in line. Right now armor/monsters both internally and externally are suffering from "but Erads/Abike and Fusion/Haywire"

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




If you nerf eradictors and attack bikes, then the next thing you are going to have to nerf is MM devastators, melta drop sterguard, and by the time you do that marines will stop having an efficient anti tank option. While at the same time harlequins are going to runing with an anti tank and anti meq gun on every troop model.

The only thing this would achive is to make marines worse, harlequins better and the CWE codex a problem if it has a single good tank or vehicle in it. Even now with all those OP marines running around , CWE+Harli soups are winning tournaments.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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 Eldarain wrote:

They also need to have their AT brought in line. Right now armor/monsters both internally and externally are suffering from "but Erads/Abike and Fusion/Haywire"


Remember when everyone was like "hordes are dead"? Pepperidge Farm remembers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
CWE+Harli soups are winning tournaments.


And GSC. And Custodes. And Daemons. And Necrons. And AdMech. And Sisters. And Orks.

Nids and Eldar were sitting low and both have some potentially helpful point cuts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 02:14:14


 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Karol wrote:
If you nerf eradictors and attack bikes, then the next thing you are going to have to nerf is MM devastators, melta drop sterguard, and by the time you do that marines will stop having an efficient anti tank option. While at the same time harlequins are going to runing with an anti tank and anti meq gun on every troop model.

The only thing this would achive is to make marines worse, harlequins better and the CWE codex a problem if it has a single good tank or vehicle in it. Even now with all those OP marines running around , CWE+Harli soups are winning tournaments.

lascannons and thunderhammers would still be in the game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


And GSC. And Custodes. And Daemons. And Necrons. And AdMech. And Sisters. And Orks.

Nids and Eldar were sitting low and both have some potentially helpful point cuts.


yeah but those dont matter to their eyes, eldars bad mmmkay

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 02:15:59


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nids and Eldar just got their points back to something close to what they should have been in the beginning but for really bad decisions made by someone who was probably actually intoxicated at the time.

I mean, 10 point guardians? Seriously? That's trippin' territory.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Daedalus81 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Rihgu wrote:

On the other end of the spectrum, "because it makes so much sense to make the chaos lord overpriced because you're assuming it's giving 3 fellblades re-roll"



well.. yeah it does. Its the chaos lord's ability, not the fellblades. Its the same problem with the Guilliman tax that caused the mid 8th marine slump.


Right it is the age old problem, but eventually lords won't be giving super heavies rerolls. For now they do - whether this is worth distinction I don't know.

Whether it is or not, I doubt gw considered it. All of these shared units for loyalists and CSM have had the same price for multiple editions, long before CORE was a factor. This particular argument is odd to begin with: who's bringing 3 600 PPM Fellblades for their Chaos Lord to buff? Realistically, if you want to use this argument I'd look at their ability to buff something like Vindicator Laser Destroyers in their current rules.

Eldarain wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Or remove it and increase the price of the Attack Bike.


That would be a double nerf, I am not sure what it would suppose to achive, specialy considering that harliequins were not change in the faq batch at all.

They also need to have their AT brought in line. Right now armor/monsters both internally and externally are suffering from "but Erads/Abike and Fusion/Haywire"

Either some current AT units are underpriced or vehicles are overpriced. Right now 5 eradicators with the heavy meltas (245 points) can reliably kill 300+ PPM tanks in a single round of shooting. That's just too efficient. The 5 PPM increase is not enough. I don't want to see infantry AT priced out of the game, but right now lot of it it's too cheap in relation to most of its intended targets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 05:47:20


 
   
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*shrug* Fully loaded Stompa is down 15.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Either some current AT units are underpriced or vehicles are overpriced. Right now 5 eradicators with the heavy meltas (245 points) can reliably kill 300+ PPM tanks in a single round of shooting. That's just too efficient. The 5 PPM increase is not enough. I don't want to see infantry AT priced out of the game, but right now lot of it it's too cheap in relation to most of its intended targets.


That would be "too efficient" in any other faction, but it makes Astartes players feel like they're in control, like they have the upper hand, it'll get them to buy more models because they feel rewarded by GW for their allegiance.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Hecaton wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Either some current AT units are underpriced or vehicles are overpriced. Right now 5 eradicators with the heavy meltas (245 points) can reliably kill 300+ PPM tanks in a single round of shooting. That's just too efficient. The 5 PPM increase is not enough. I don't want to see infantry AT priced out of the game, but right now lot of it it's too cheap in relation to most of its intended targets.


That would be "too efficient" in any other faction, but it makes Astartes players feel like they're in control, like they have the upper hand, it'll get them to buy more models because they feel rewarded by GW for their allegiance.

You do realize that the overpriced 300+PPM tanks I was referring to were repulsors, right? The issue is underpriced infantry AT vs overpriced vehicles. Harliequins get it too cheap with fusion pistols + haywire, SoB get it too cheap with retributors, it isn't just a loyalists issue. Eradicators are just the most egregious example.
   
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Italy

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right now 5 eradicators with the heavy meltas (245 points) can reliably kill 300+ PPM tanks in a single round of shooting. That's just too efficient. The 5 PPM increase is not enough. I don't want to see infantry AT priced out of the game, but right now lot of it it's too cheap in relation to most of its intended targets.


Problem with Eradicators is the combination of their damage outpur and their stats. If they were firstborn marines with T4 2W they'd be fine at 40-45ppm, basically Devastators that are paying some extra points for getting assault weapons and double tap.

They'd be fair. Gravis armour dudes are almost as tough as light vehicles. At 45ppm they need to give up both assault and double tap or to be priced at 55-65ppm. Gravis and primaris dudes are all cheaper than they should be actually.

 
   
 
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