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 vipoid wrote:

Ah, but Yuki will counter by putting out an app that will allow people to read his posts by paying a monthly subscription. Except that they'll be in a random order, with no way to sort them by thread or date, and some may have been badly translated to Chinese.

Ok, that sounds bad, but we should all just WAIT AND SEE how it eventually turns out in several years time.

You know, on a more serious note, I can't help but think that having a given unit's point cost and wargear cost in its entry makes it vastly easier to read. As opposed to having a unit's entry and rules in one place and then the points in a different place, split between multiple, different lists.

I wish the actual codices would take this on board.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
His post is criticizing GW for making typos. The post he wrote to criticize GW for making Typos contains one.

That's just Muphry's Law. It's to be expected.

I had to look up that one.
I was this close to posting about how meta this was all getting, but stopped to look it up first. I learned that from one of BCB's posts.

 vipoid wrote:
You know, on a more serious note, I can't help but think that having a given unit's point cost and wargear cost in its entry makes it vastly easier to read. As opposed to having a unit's entry and rules in one place and then the points in a different place, split between multiple, different lists.

I wish the actual codices would take this on board.

Yeah this frustrates me. I'm sure it was part of a push to use power level instead of points, but I can see it would make list building a lot more awkward if I didn't just use BattleScribe.

I don't see the point of printing points into the codex in the first place. They change at least twice a year, sometimes even more often than that.

Putting them onto datasheets would just confuse people.

There is a large group of people who would not buy a codex, if it didn't have points in it. And AoS was a good experiment of going pointless in a GW game. GW consus seems to be be that points should very much be in.

All current (and some future ) points are available online.

Karol wrote:
There is a large group of people who would not buy a codex, if it didn't have points in it. And AoS was a good experiment of going pointless in a GW game. GW consus seems to be be that points should very much be in.

Most people i know already don't own the codexes anyway. And people that do barely refer to them since theyre mostly unecessary fluff and overpriced.

Still, if GW gave the pts list for free online and the codexes were small books with only datasheets, it could work and would probably be better than what we have now.

GW's rules distribution system is just totally out of date. They shouldn't charge for rules at all. They don't even make much money off selling books, because the margin is so much lower than with plastic.

They'd almost certainly sell more plastic if they just gave away the rules for free. If they really wanted to keep selling books, they could keep doing so as a kind of premium feature for collectors, but it can't make much business sense to continue to lock rules behind expensive books that keep people out of the much more lucrative plastic market. Even if charging $50 for a codex only means someone buys $50 less of plastic in an exact one-for-one substitution, that's still a net loss for GW.

Though of course in reality most people just get the rules for free anyway except for maybe the faction they like best, and GW tacitly tolerates it.

Karol wrote:
GW consus seems to be be that points should very much be in.

Community consensus.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Ah, but Yuki will counter by putting out an app that will allow people to read his posts by paying a monthly subscription. Except that they'll be in a random order, with no way to sort them by thread or date, and some may have been badly translated to Chinese.

Ok, that sounds bad, but we should all just WAIT AND SEE how it eventually turns out in several years time.

This gets my goat more than chupacabra. GW defenders always go off potential of something instead of the actual end product.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't see the point of printing points into the codex in the first place. They change at least twice a year, sometimes even more often than that.

Putting them onto datasheets would just confuse people.

We are at the point where printing a codex is almost useless because the inherent rules change that frequently...not to mention they still haven't found an editor who can read.

Rules changes are extremely rare, and when happen are usually just changes to the wording to make them clearer.

It is not comparable to points cost changing each 6 months.

Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

I think this is very much going to vary on an army to army basis. So yes DG and other CSM get horde play limited but I don't think they will kneecap the ability of Tyranids and Orks to run a horde list, it wouldn't make any sense. It's just very clear that GW did not like a bunch of DG lists without any actual DG infantry in them. Which I agree with but if they (GW) had paid any attention they probably should have limited people's ability to spam Daemon Engines and calling it a DG list rather than singling out poxwalkers.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

I don't really see how the former jumps to the second.
Okay, you won't be able to take an army which is just Poxwalkers screening vehicles. Or just hundreds of Poxwalkers.
But unless you really hate say Plague Marines or Terminators I'm not sure including say 2-3 units to unlock plenty of them is a massive tax, or ends hordes as we know it.

On the one hand limitations like this are bad because they limit narrative design of armies.
On the other, from a gaming perspective, making these units dependent on having a Marine unit seems like a potentially better way of fixing "we have to keep nerfing these guys so you'll eat your basic CSM".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

No, you can't.

For each Bubonic Astartes Core Infantry (BACI) unit in your detachment, you can include 1 unit of 10-30 Death Guard Cultist AND 1 unit of 10-20 Poxwalkers. That's 50 horde models for each BACI unit. And those BACI units are most likely Blightlord Terminators (200 points for 5 models), Deathshroud Terminators (150 points for 3 models), Death Guard Possessed (120 points for 5 models), and Plague Marines (105 Points for 5 models). I think you can still fit well over 100 Infantry models in your army after paying the BACI tax.

What they have done is forced people to put actual Death Guard Marine models on the board instead of playing characters, daemon engines, cultist and poxwalkers.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

This is overly dramatic. This is GW forcing how they envision armies to form. Do you really think Daemons will be restricted on the use of their core units? Do Tzaangor bombs even get used now and is it necessary to have 90 of them?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

why would the combat patrol box be illegal? Have we seen all the rules? Maybe poxs can now be taken in squads of 30 or maybe typhus removes the core tax.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

why would the combat patrol box be illegal? Have we seen all the rules? Maybe poxs can now be taken in squads of 30 or maybe typhus removes the core tax.

So the options are:

1. GW completely lacked foresight and released a broken product out of the gate.

OR.

2. This was a all long game by GW where they release a product model pack, and expected for these rules to marry up perfectly with their as yet unreleased rules?

Since all we have to go off of here is GW's past with broken releases, I'm going with 1. Also, If infernal Jealousy is worded correctly, Typhus will not be taken over the other Lords, or just Mortarian. As Typhus has "lord of" keywords, and thus cannot be taken along side Morty or any other Lord of...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

why would the combat patrol box be illegal? Have we seen all the rules? Maybe poxs can now be taken in squads of 30 or maybe typhus removes the core tax.

So the options are:

1. GW completely lacked foresight and released a broken product out of the gate.

OR.

2. This was a all long game by GW where they release a product model pack, and expected for these rules to marry up perfectly with their as yet unreleased rules?

Since all we have to go off of here is GW's past with broken releases, I'm going with 1. Also, If infernal Jealousy is worded correctly, Typhus will not be taken over the other Lords, or just Mortarian. As Typhus has "lord of" keywords, and thus cannot be taken along side Morty or any other Lord of...

the combat patrol box releases at the same time as the codex.... i have no idea why you treat it like its an old release...

And thats the whole point of typhus, if youre running a poxwalker list, you're gonna want typhus over regular lords...

Stop freaking out

 alextroy wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

No, you can't.

For each Bubonic Astartes Core Infantry (BACI) unit in your detachment, you can include 1 unit of 10-30 Death Guard Cultist AND 1 unit of 10-20 Poxwalkers. That's 50 horde models for each BACI unit. And those BACI units are most likely Blightlord Terminators (200 points for 5 models), Deathshroud Terminators (150 points for 3 models), Death Guard Possessed (120 points for 5 models), and Plague Marines (105 Points for 5 models). I think you can still fit well over 100 Infantry models in your army after paying the BACI tax.

What they have done is forced people to put actual Death Guard Marine models on the board instead of playing characters, daemon engines, cultist and poxwalkers.

Then...just make those units worth taking. Plague Marines look good now, so why the unnecessary restriction?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


the combat patrol box releases at the same time as the codex.... i have no idea why you treat it like its an old release...

Well, to be fair, its largely stuff that people would have been better off buying a couple years ago.
...but then, that's exactly why that stuff is _in_ the combat patrol box, plus a couple character to pump up the perceived bargain value (for people who look at boxes in terms of total monetary 'value' vs 'discount').

The only things new for DG are the LoV and terrain.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't see the point of printing points into the codex in the first place. They change at least twice a year, sometimes even more often than that.

Putting them onto datasheets would just confuse people.

I second this, completely agree. Let's keep the units' datasheets updated until the next codex drops, thanks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then...just make those units worth taking. Plague Marines look good now, so why the unnecessary restriction?

Someone ran the numbers and decided putting 1500~ points largely into Mech (plus a few characters) that laugh at 2 damage weapons, and also sticking 100 T4 6+++ bodies on the table, requiring some reasonably dedicated anti-horde, was too good?

Or just putting 300~ such bodies on the table because you can (not quite sure on the HQ costs, but go with it.)?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can I just say the new rules for the Death Guard are anti-horde as can possibly be, even to the point of making the Combat Patrol box illegal out of the box? This is GW hating horde, and this is how they will kill hordes. You cannot have a horde unit (guessing 20+ model units) without a like number of CORE units. You can no longer run BL bombs, or Zombie Hordes, or even Cultist/tzangor bombs because of this. This is GW forcing the Elite style of play.

No, you can't.

For each Bubonic Astartes Core Infantry (BACI) unit in your detachment, you can include 1 unit of 10-30 Death Guard Cultist AND 1 unit of 10-20 Poxwalkers. That's 50 horde models for each BACI unit. And those BACI units are most likely Blightlord Terminators (200 points for 5 models), Deathshroud Terminators (150 points for 3 models), Death Guard Possessed (120 points for 5 models), and Plague Marines (105 Points for 5 models). I think you can still fit well over 100 Infantry models in your army after paying the BACI tax.

What they have done is forced people to put actual Death Guard Marine models on the board instead of playing characters, daemon engines, cultist and poxwalkers.

Then...just make those units worth taking. Plague Marines look good now, so why the unnecessary restriction?

Probably because GW just didn't want DG armies to play like hordes. There's no problem with using some restrictions in army building to push people towards the kind of army you want that Codex to represent on the battlefield. The problem only comes if GW haven't managed to make Plague Marines themselves effective on the board.

There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.

I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.

I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.

I mean, it actively punishes and groups larger than 5+/10+. It's clearly meant to incentivize players to take smaller units.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.

I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.

I mean, it actively punishes and groups larger than 5+/10+. It's clearly meant to incentivize players to take smaller units.

So did the templates. The more dudes you had, the more dudes were hit. Sure, you could spred them out, but a large blast that didn't scatter usually hit 4-6 models. And every model under the template was "auto-hit". It wasn't "place template, scatter, see how many models are under the template, roll that many dice to see how many are hit".