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With the way other Imperial weapons have received buffs the Custodes have been left behind. Also, Custodes really do NOT have any reasonable volume of fire. With that in mind, I have ideas on how to bring them up to snuff.

For ranged shooting, Make Custodes swords Pistol 3, and the spears/axes rapid fire 2

For close combat, make the swords +1 strength, Spears +2 Strength, and Axes +3 Strength.


Ideas or opinions?

I don't know custodes well at all. That said, aren't they considered to be one of the top performers right behind marines and harlies at the moment? If so, I'd be reluctant to hand out buffs to them.

Every custodes book ever has a fight scene where a custodian stabs an enemy with his guardian spear and the fires point-blank into them. Why is that not represented in the table top?

Solution:
Make spears/axes be 24" pistol 2. Its a small change that might never even come up in a game, since custodes are still melee units and don't often fight in prolonged combat, but it is so much more thematic.

For the sake of internal balance, give swords a buff up to 12" pistol 4. They are already more expensive anyway, and if you are really worried about 1+/3++ custodes, then make storm shields 10 points and don't make swords your scapegoat.

The rest of the GW custodes line has pretty decent shooting for their role, like termies and bikes. FW custodes are a different story, and the mainstay of any competitve list, but I haven't kept up with them in 9th.

Assault 2, and allowed to be fired as Pistols. Swords can be Assault 3-4 to compensate for the lower damage and worse melee weapon.

The big thing the swords need is some darn AP. Make them ap-1, 2 damage like the spears/axes.

Then, make the spears and axes assault 2.

 iGuy91 wrote:
The big thing the swords need is some darn AP. Make them ap-1, 2 damage like the spears/axes.

Then, make the spears and axes assault 2.

The Swords don't. You have to balance with the fact the Swords come with Storm Shields.

Don't make them assault, that is stepping on the toes of the solar watch, unless you buff their warlord trait to ignore all penalties for advancing on top of +1 movement. Which you could do, but again, that is a nice buff for an army that is doing better than most.

And swords don't come with storm shields, slayer. They only allow you to take them. Don't punish swords for the problems with shields.

If shields go up to 10 points each, I'd feel alot better about laying on the buffs for custodes shooting, though I don't think AP on the swords is the right way. Custodes are already spoiled for AP -1 D2 weapons. More attacks is the way to go. Swords can't be better at shooting than spears.

You...take them in tandem. That's the point.

No.

 Eipi10 wrote:
No.

You can say NO all you want but it doesn't make it any less true. You either choose offense or defense. Simple as that. The Swords are strictly inferior but that's okay because they give access to Storm Shields.

Think outside the meta.

 Eipi10 wrote:
Think outside the meta.

It's literally giving you a choice (which is GOOD), what does thay have to do with meta?

I think the shooting is fine, just make the spears and axes assault 2. The 2 dmg is nice and we're not a dedicated shooting faction. Also we have sagittarium, which are very good now.

The melee profiles need help though. I've postet this before but this is how I would change them to make them better and interesting:

Sentinel blade:
S: User AP: - 3 Dmg: D3
Abilities: every time the bearer fights with this weapon, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.

Guardian spear:
2 profiles: every time the bearer fights he must choose which profile to use in the fight phase

Profile1:
S: +2 AP: - 3 Dmg: 2

Profile2:
S: User AP: - 2 Dmg: 1
Every time the bearer fights, each attack from his profile counts as 2 attacks.

Castellan axe:
S: +3 AP: - 2 Dmg: 2
Every time the bearer successfully charges, change the profile of this weapon until the end of the fight phase to: S: x2 AP: - 2 Dmg: D3+1

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
Think outside the meta.

It's literally giving you a choice (which is GOOD), what does thay have to do with meta?

The misericordia and shield are exlusive options with swords, but no one takes the sword and misericordia combo becuase it's trash compared to the sword and board. It doesn't have to be that way though. Buff the sword till its the equal of the spear and make the shield appropriately expensive.

Tiberias wrote:I think the shooting is fine, just make the spears and axes assault 2. The 2 dmg is nice and we're not a dedicated shooting faction. Also we have sagittarium, which are very good now.

The melee profiles need help though. I've postet this before but this is how I would change them to make them better and interesting:

Sentinel blade:
S: User AP: - 3 Dmg: D3
Abilities: every time the bearer fights with this weapon, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.

Guardian spear:
2 profiles: every time the bearer fights he must choose which profile to use in the fight phase

Profile1:
S: +2 AP: - 3 Dmg: 2

Profile2:
S: User AP: - 2 Dmg: 1
Every time the bearer fights, each attack from his profile counts as 2 attacks.

Castellan axe:
S: +3 AP: - 2 Dmg: 2
Every time the bearer successfully charges, change the profile of this weapon until the end of the fight phase to: S: x2 AP: - 2 Dmg: D3+1

The castellan giving bonuses on the charge seems weird. That's not how axe fights go any more than spear or sword fights. I would just make it either S: x2 or Dmg: 3 and call it a day. I don't know which is better.

 Eipi10 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
Think outside the meta.

It's literally giving you a choice (which is GOOD), what does thay have to do with meta?

The misericordia and shield are exlusive options with swords, but no one takes the sword and misericordia combo becuase it's trash compared to the sword and board. It doesn't have to be that way though. Buff the sword till its the equal of the spear and make the shield appropriately expensive.

Tiberias wrote:I think the shooting is fine, just make the spears and axes assault 2. The 2 dmg is nice and we're not a dedicated shooting faction. Also we have sagittarium, which are very good now.

The melee profiles need help though. I've postet this before but this is how I would change them to make them better and interesting:

Sentinel blade:
S: User AP: - 3 Dmg: D3
Abilities: every time the bearer fights with this weapon, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.

Guardian spear:
2 profiles: every time the bearer fights he must choose which profile to use in the fight phase

Profile1:
S: +2 AP: - 3 Dmg: 2

Profile2:
S: User AP: - 2 Dmg: 1
Every time the bearer fights, each attack from his profile counts as 2 attacks.

Castellan axe:
S: +3 AP: - 2 Dmg: 2
Every time the bearer successfully charges, change the profile of this weapon until the end of the fight phase to: S: x2 AP: - 2 Dmg: D3+1

The castellan giving bonuses on the charge seems weird. That's not how axe fights go any more than spear or sword fights. I would just make it either S: x2 or Dmg: 3 and call it a day. I don't know which is better.

The Miscordia is only one extra attack at S5 AP-2, you'd have no reason to NOT take the Storm Shield even if we made it absurdly expensive like you wanted.

Do you even know the codex we are talking about?

That's what this thread is about fixing. Making the basic custodes weapons appropriately powerful so the ten thousand are not stuck being 1+/3++ objective campers.

 Eipi10 wrote:
That's what this thread is about fixing. Making the basic custodes weapons appropriately powerful so the ten thousand are not stuck being 1+/3++ objective campers.

Some people want a tough objective camper, and that's a problem why?

 Eipi10 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
Think outside the meta.

It's literally giving you a choice (which is GOOD), what does thay have to do with meta?

The misericordia and shield are exlusive options with swords, but no one takes the sword and misericordia combo becuase it's trash compared to the sword and board. It doesn't have to be that way though. Buff the sword till its the equal of the spear and make the shield appropriately expensive.

Tiberias wrote:I think the shooting is fine, just make the spears and axes assault 2. The 2 dmg is nice and we're not a dedicated shooting faction. Also we have sagittarium, which are very good now.

The melee profiles need help though. I've postet this before but this is how I would change them to make them better and interesting:

Sentinel blade:
S: User AP: - 3 Dmg: D3
Abilities: every time the bearer fights with this weapon, he can make d3 additional attacks with this weapon.

Guardian spear:
2 profiles: every time the bearer fights he must choose which profile to use in the fight phase

Profile1:
S: +2 AP: - 3 Dmg: 2

Profile2:
S: User AP: - 2 Dmg: 1
Every time the bearer fights, each attack from his profile counts as 2 attacks.

Castellan axe:
S: +3 AP: - 2 Dmg: 2
Every time the bearer successfully charges, change the profile of this weapon until the end of the fight phase to: S: x2 AP: - 2 Dmg: D3+1

The castellan giving bonuses on the charge seems weird. That's not how axe fights go any more than spear or sword fights. I would just make it either S: x2 or Dmg: 3 and call it a day. I don't know which is better.

Well I still stand by it because I feel it's more interesting. Giving our weapons additional abilities also shows that our guys are martial paragons. I like the idea that the axe carries more momentum when our guys charge and smash into an enemy unit with the potential to do 4dmg per swing.

Oh I forgot to add that, but I'd give guardian spears another general rule in addition to the 2 weapon profiles: "when this unit gets charged by an enemy unit, roll one D6 for every model in your unit equipped with a guardian spear. On a 4+ the charging enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound"
Never made sense to me, that you could just run into our spear guys without some penalty.

Also while we're at it how yould you change trajann valoris watchers axe? For right now it's kinda pathetic. I'd go for something like this:
Melee: S: x2 AP: -3 Dmg: 4
Shooting: just change to assault 2

Edit: also we're not talking about realism here, but about game design. I think with the changes I proposed there are some interesting options that fulfill different roles: sword and board is the most defensive option obviously, spears are somewhat in the middle while also giving some defensive buff when charged and axes are the most offensive option albeit with a little less AP than the spears.
I feel you need to give players these choices and not create one weapon loadout, that is always superior. Which is what we have now, there is no reason to take spears right now, except when you really want to save some points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
That's what this thread is about fixing. Making the basic custodes weapons appropriately powerful so the ten thousand are not stuck being 1+/3++ objective campers.

Some people want a tough objective camper, and that's a problem why?

the problem is just that people want options other than just "Heavy on Point", so are looking to improve our ability to do other things.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
That's what this thread is about fixing. Making the basic custodes weapons appropriately powerful so the ten thousand are not stuck being 1+/3++ objective campers.

Some people want a tough objective camper, and that's a problem why?

the problem is just that people want options other than just "Heavy on Point", so are looking to improve our ability to do other things.

Then you can mix it up or just go with all Spears. It's fine to make one weapon strictly worse because of the defensive option it has. No idea why you're so against that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
That's what this thread is about fixing. Making the basic custodes weapons appropriately powerful so the ten thousand are not stuck being 1+/3++ objective campers.

Some people want a tough objective camper, and that's a problem why?

the problem is just that people want options other than just "Heavy on Point", so are looking to improve our ability to do other things.

Then you can mix it up or just go with all Spears. It's fine to make one weapon strictly worse because of the defensive option it has. No idea why you're so against that.

Is this really the point in contention? I thought this was blatantly obvious....as long as the sentinel blades have the option to be taken with storm shields, they HAVE to be worse than the spear and axe. This is also the reason we will never get the option to equip spears and shield, because it would absolutely invalidate sentinel blades.

Tiberias wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
That's what this thread is about fixing. Making the basic custodes weapons appropriately powerful so the ten thousand are not stuck being 1+/3++ objective campers.

Some people want a tough objective camper, and that's a problem why?

the problem is just that people want options other than just "Heavy on Point", so are looking to improve our ability to do other things.

Then you can mix it up or just go with all Spears. It's fine to make one weapon strictly worse because of the defensive option it has. No idea why you're so against that.

Is this really the point in contention? I thought this was blatantly obvious....as long as the sentinel blades have the option to be taken with storm shields, they HAVE to be worse than the spear and axe. This is also the reason we will never get the option to equip spears and shield, because it would absolutely invalidate sentinel blades.

Well the player I'm quoting wants them to be more equal and make SS ridiculously expensive, which is pretty damn silly not gonna lie.

Some of the posts in this discussion confuse me.
Is one of the proposals here that regular custodian guard should gain the ability to take a sword without a shield? Because right now only shield-captains are allowed to do that.
I'm not sure if we're just discussing shield-captains, or if someone is getting mixed up between the custodian guards current codex rules (which require a sword to be taken with a shield), and their old index rules (which did permit a sword without a shield).

Arson Fire wrote:
Some of the posts in this discussion confuse me.
Is one of the proposals here that regular custodian guard should gain the ability to take a sword without a shield? Because right now only shield-captains are allowed to do that.
I'm not sure if we're just discussing shield-captains, or if someone is getting mixed up between the custodian guards current codex rules (which require a sword to be taken with a shield), and their old index rules (which did permit a sword without a shield).

IIRC, any Custodian can take a Sentinel Blade without a Storm Shield.


Anyway, here's my take on the weapon adjustments.

Guardian Spears can either shoot their current profile, or Assault 3, S4 Ap0, D1.

Additionally, Melta and Adrasite Spears can be mixed in with regular Custodes.

Sentinel Blades can make an additional attack if the bearer is not armed with a Storm Shield.

Sentinel Storm strategem, possibly the worst one in the Codex, becomes Use this during the Fight Phase. If a model armed with a Sentinel Blade rolls a 6 to wound, causes an additional Mortal Wound.

Obliteratum needs a damage boost.

Fulminus Aggressor needs something to justify the relic slot besides oh it's a Vexilla with a Flamer built in.

 Valkyrie wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Some of the posts in this discussion confuse me.
Is one of the proposals here that regular custodian guard should gain the ability to take a sword without a shield? Because right now only shield-captains are allowed to do that.
I'm not sure if we're just discussing shield-captains, or if someone is getting mixed up between the custodian guards current codex rules (which require a sword to be taken with a shield), and their old index rules (which did permit a sword without a shield).

IIRC, any Custodian can take a Sentinel Blade without a Storm Shield.

Hmm, not how it reads to me. This is from the custodian guards datasheet. Shield-captains can do it, but not these guys.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Some of the posts in this discussion confuse me.
Is one of the proposals here that regular custodian guard should gain the ability to take a sword without a shield? Because right now only shield-captains are allowed to do that.
I'm not sure if we're just discussing shield-captains, or if someone is getting mixed up between the custodian guards current codex rules (which require a sword to be taken with a shield), and their old index rules (which did permit a sword without a shield).

IIRC, any Custodian can take a Sentinel Blade without a Storm Shield.

Hmm, not how it reads to me. This is from the custodian guards datasheet. Shield-captains can do it, but not these guys.

Bloody hell I've been misreading that for years. Not that I ran them without SS anyway but always thought it was optional. Consider me corrected.

When I first started collecting I made four guys with Sword/knife. I wish they wouldn't invalidate options like that.

If they somehow made it that the shieldless sword option was somehow viable vs. the spear or the sword/shield it would be neat. It would give us a viable 3rd build without having to make another kit. Even if it was just the "cheap" was of running a Custodian guard.

well instead of arguing pts cost or D3/3D, why not classify what each weapon should do?

Misericordias can retain their extra attack. Makes them nice everywhere (except Storm Shields - but they could differentiate from Sentinel Blades by being cheaper).

Sentinel Blades should be relatively low str/ap, but get you more attacks, e.g. "if this model is not equipped with a Storm Shield, it can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon".
Together with Sentinel Storm, that would be the anti-horde weapon.

Add in a Storm Shield, you lose the extra attacks, but gain durability.

Spears could be a medium strength bonus (+2?) with medium strength shooting.

Axes should be the heavy hitters in melee with the same shooting as spears, differentiated through increased cost.

I think that way every weapon and every loadout would have a niche and a use and, at least potentially, makes you able to tailor a squad for each role.

Cheap objective holders? Misericordia+Shield.

Fighty objective holders? Sentinel Blade+Shield.

Assault units/allrounders? Spear guard

Shock troops? Allarus.

 Thairne wrote:
well instead of arguing pts cost or D3/3D, why not classify what each weapon should do?

Misericordias can retain their extra attack. Makes them nice everywhere (except Storm Shields - but they could differentiate from Sentinel Blades by being cheaper).

Sentinel Blades should be relatively low str/ap, but get you more attacks, e.g. "if this model is not equipped with a Storm Shield, it can make 2 additional attacks with this weapon".
Together with Sentinel Storm, that would be the anti-horde weapon.

Add in a Storm Shield, you lose the extra attacks, but gain durability.

Spears could be a medium strength bonus (+2?) with medium strength shooting.

Axes should be the heavy hitters in melee with the same shooting as spears, differentiated through increased cost.

I think that way every weapon and every loadout would have a niche and a use and, at least potentially, makes you able to tailor a squad for each role.

Cheap objective holders? Misericordia+Shield.

Fighty objective holders? Sentinel Blade+Shield.

Assault units/allrounders? Spear guard

Shock troops? Allarus.

Yeah, I mostly agree with this.

I think permanent superior fire patterns on all our infantry is all we need as far as range goes.

Melee is fixed with just a blanket +1A across the board. We can leave weapon stats as they are if we just get more attacks.