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I can fully understand "our factories were massively impacted by Covid shutdowns and we can't make any more without further disrupting our already completely busted schedule" - but this approach of "we burned down the molds, deleted the files and for good measure purged everyone involved on the project" is just weird for something they clearly invested a lot of effort in.

If they just came out and said "Virus bad mmmk - we underestimated demand but we'll have some more in six-twelve months" I think people would be upset but ultimately understanding.

Arguments about returns seem weird - because the marginal cost of the materials is almost nothing. You've put in all the sunk costs.

Danny76 wrote:
Ok, both circumstantial and anecdotal.

Yep. I suspect right now only a handful of people at GW HQ actually know what the hell is going on.

beast_gts wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Ok, both circumstantial and anecdotal.

Yep. I suspect right now only a handful of people at GW HQ actually know what the hell is going on.

>implying none of this was planned

Tyel wrote:
I can fully understand "our factories were massively impacted by Covid shutdowns and we can't make any more without further disrupting our already completely busted schedule" - but this approach of "we burned down the molds, deleted the files and for good measure purged everyone involved on the project" is just weird for something they clearly invested a lot of effort in.

If they just came out and said "Virus bad mmmk - we underestimated demand but we'll have some more in six-twelve months" I think people would be upset but ultimately understanding.

Arguments about returns seem weird - because the marginal cost of the materials is almost nothing. You've put in all the sunk costs.

Who said they burners moulds? If they are alredy struggling to keeg production keep up they have more profitable stuff to produce in 6 months. Moulds sell most when released anyway. After 3 months sale focus shifte d and sales trickle anyway

Especially if every eu sale is hit by tariffs either they need to increase price significantly or profij margin sinks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If BSF still has a market, why wouldn’t Cursed City? It’s not one or the other.

Not to mention that if BSF still has a market, why don't its expansions?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just can't fathom releasing this game without planning expansions similar to BSF.

I don't have a copy to check, as I was going to wait for the initial rush to die down, but I've seen a few people mention that the books in the box explicitly mention that there will be expansions.

Whether that still happens is another matter entirely, of course.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Ah yes the horrible, horrible investment of a few molds, plastic worth 5 pounds and a bunch of cardboards.

Thank you for explicitly confirming that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Ok, both circumstantial and anecdotal.

Yep. I suspect right now only a handful of people at GW HQ actually know what the hell is going on.

>implying none of this was planned

You're not on 4chan. Give it a rest, you're being very tiresome.

Molds costing easily 6 digits

Man, these moulds keep going up in price every time someone mentions them. Soon it will be a million pounds per mould, which is why GW produces one-off limited edition store-anniversary models this way...

Cronch wrote:

Molds costing easily 6 digits

Man, these moulds keep going up in price every time someone mentions them. Soon it will be a million pounds per mould, which is why GW produces one-off limited edition store-anniversary models this way...

Shhh no. Plastic moulds prohibitively expensive. Finecast like moon landing. Just drink the KoolAid.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Cronch wrote:

Molds costing easily 6 digits

Man, these moulds keep going up in price every time someone mentions them. Soon it will be a million pounds per mould, which is why GW produces one-off limited edition store-anniversary models this way...

Shhh no. Plastic moulds prohibitively expensive. Finecast like moon landing. Just drink the KoolAid.

Steel injection molding molds usually come to some hundred of thousand £ each, but last along time so recoup cost over time.

One off models or short runs they use Aluminium molds, which are much cheaper to make but don't last nearly as long as its, a, softer metal.

 Rick_1138 wrote:


Steel injection molding molds usually come to some hundred of thousand £ each, but last along time so recoup cost over time.

One off models or short runs they use Aluminium molds, which are much cheaper to make but don't last nearly as long as its, a, softer metal.

The manufacture process of steel molds became substantially cheaper with the advent of CADCAM. I'd be extremely suprised if any of the molds for Cursed City cost more than £15k.

 Rick_1138 wrote:

Steel injection molding molds usually come to some hundred of thousand £ each, but last along time so recoup cost over time.

Yeah that was a thing 30 years ago, not today and not for a company that can tool their own completely in-house. It costs GW a block of steel and some manhours. We're talking four digit numbers for total material costs. For how absolutely trivial mold tooling really is nowadays you can look at Archon, they messed up some sprue layout and were like "ayy lmao give us a month to tool two new molds to fix this small issue for like 500 kickstarter backers"

For looking at other companies KS for plastic tooling it’s definitely in the £10-20k range not hundreds of thousands.
And even then that’s years ago, and costs probably come down too, so nearer the lower end now..

Nay, nay! Manufacturing a mould costs 100 Guineas, I’m not sure what that is in gold sovereigns.

It’s amazing how the internet keeps repeating the same dodgy information just because everyone is just repeating what they heard once.

If a game is expected to be made for 2 years, like BSF, I think we’re still in aluminium mold territory.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Well, I mean... Indomitus was the last thing I've bought from GW, so...

Exactly, which released post-price hike.

It did release post-hike, but in and of itself had good value given the stuff it had, at least for me.

I can't say the same of everything else GW has released since, so I haven't bought any. Last ones before those... hm. I thing some Start Collecting boxes and manible boxes for AT. I even have stopped buying the Necromunda gang boxes.

 Dysartes wrote:

Not to mention that if BSF still has a market, why don't its expansions?

Because the core game can quite happily carry on selling without the expansions, and they would only be a further drain on a production schedule that is already months behind.

Why then did they not just discontinue Blackstone Fortress and do this with Cursed City instead? Well, here is one possibility; maybe Cursed City was put back to late 2021, but there was also the need to release it to coincide with the Soulblight range that is now starting to roll out. They knew it would prove popular with both AoS and Quest players and made an early print run to meet that requirement, and then return later with a proper Quest launch whenever that might be.

In the mean time, the core BSF set would be enough to offer a solid Quest experience if anyone asks.

But that is at best just theory.

OK all the people spouting nonsense about the prices of the molds and how cheap they are please shut up.
As a patternmaker and the person who makes them for a living your all talking out your ass

 Rolsheen wrote:
OK all the people spouting nonsense about the prices of the molds and how cheap they are please shut up.
As a patternmaker and the person who makes them for a living your all talking out your ass

Could you perhaps offer some insight as to what you'd think the actual prices would be, given sprue size and the tonnage you'd expect the injection machine might be? Otherwise you're just another ass-talker like the rest of us.

 Rolsheen wrote:
OK all the people spouting nonsense about the prices of the molds and how cheap they are please shut up.
As a patternmaker and the person who makes them for a living your all talking out your ass

Hey bud you're not the first person on Dakka who got aggressive when fresh competition showed how much they were overcharing for services

So here's a Kickstarter that made just shy of 1 million US dollars and financed the design and tooling of 50+ HIPS sprues, delivery of physical rewards valued as little as $2 per sprue, as well as, presumably, wages for the whole company for a year.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/archonstudio/dungeons-and-lasers-second-edition/description

gg

 Rolsheen wrote:
OK all the people spouting nonsense about the prices of the molds and how cheap they are please shut up.
As a patternmaker and the person who makes them for a living your all talking out your ass

You know literally anyone can say that without backing yes? And if they are so expensive, why would GW use them a few hundred times and then throw them away? Wouldn't they wanna y'know, make money off this horribly expensive investment?

Oh hey, I've got a partial pledge in that one! I'd forgotten all about it. I think I'm down for a xenodragon and some evil temple tiles.

With how popular this is, there is no way there won't be more later
And expansions.

The cynical part of me wonders if they were/are planning to release the models separately to coincide with the soulblight launch. That would get them more money per model than people buying the game, and wouldn't require getting the cardstock printed up and books made for the boxed game. Less effort, more profit.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
With how popular this is, there is no way there won't be more later
And expansions.

You're new to GW aren't you.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
>implying none of this was planned

Hanlon's Razor.

angryboy2k wrote:

 Rolsheen wrote:
OK all the people spouting nonsense about the prices of the molds and how cheap they are please shut up.
As a patternmaker and the person who makes them for a living your all talking out your ass

Could you perhaps offer some insight as to what you'd think the actual prices would be, given sprue size and the tonnage you'd expect the injection machine might be? Otherwise you're just another ass-talker like the rest of us.

And ruin his pristine reputation? Nah, nah, somebody heard a rumor 40 years ago that it was $200,000 to machine a sprue and that settled it, it's just a fact now. Which is convenient for manufacturers who can pay off their CNC machine with just one GW starter set worth of sprues! Never mind that you could pay a metal man to hand fabricate you a working reproduction of a luxury car for less money than apparently GeeDubs paid to tool up their Indomitus box set.

Yeeesh, next you people are gonna start Googling the new tariff laws in the UK and tell me they aren't paying 7,000% tax on each and every box set leaving the country, which I already know is an incontrovertible fact despite all your lies to the contrary.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
>implying none of this was planned

Hanlon's Razor.

Hanlan's Razor is useless in the era of multi-million corporations purposefully trying to get every last cent out of your pocket, then pretending it was just a mistake (for a completely random example, Star Wars Battlefront 2). In fact, in case of a modern corporation, it is much smarter to assume the reverse; "never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice"

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Hanlan's Razor is useless in the era of multi-million corporations purposefully trying to get every last cent out of your pocket, then pretending it was just a mistake (for a completely random example, Star Wars Battlefront 2). In fact, in case of a modern corporation, it is much smarter to assume the reverse; "never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice"

Reality is much simpler : people at the top aren't as smart as the crowd assumes they are ("they are succeeding / paid way more than us, they must be special in comparison to us !" - spoiler : they aren't, most of them are just lucky or have the "special gift" of being born in a very rich family / favorable surrounding).

There is malice around the world, sure, but stupidity is much more common. Arrogance leading to stupid situations too. Especially in modern corporations.

Here, I believe it's more a case of stupid people doing stupid things at the wrong time.

But it's much more glamorous to believe this is all a conspiration all along, indeed. Like all conspiration theories.

GW using FOMO tactics to boost their sales is one thing. Believing all this mess with really bad reputation for them was a nefarious plan to suck to the last cent of our wallet is another.

Sarouan wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Hanlan's Razor is useless in the era of multi-million corporations purposefully trying to get every last cent out of your pocket, then pretending it was just a mistake (for a completely random example, Star Wars Battlefront 2). In fact, in case of a modern corporation, it is much smarter to assume the reverse; "never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice"

Reality is much simpler : people at the top aren't as smart as the crowd assumes they are ("they are succeeding / paid way more than us, they must be special in comparison to us !" - spoiler : they aren't, most of them are just lucky or have the "special gift" of being born in a very rich family / favorable surrounding).

There is malice around the world, sure, but stupidity is much more common. Arrogance leading to stupid situations too. Especially in modern corporations.

Here, I believe it's more a case of stupid people doing stupid things at the wrong time.

But it's much more glamorous to believe this is all a conspiration all along, indeed. Like all conspiration theories.

GW using FOMO tactics to boost their sales is one thing. Believing all this mess with really bad reputation for them was a nefarious plan to suck to the last cent of our wallet is another.

Is it not much simpler and more reasonable to assume a multi-million corporation simply tried to create artificial scarcity, as countless before them had done countless times, than to try to come up with a convoluted explanation to why they somehow misjudged the demand for a cheap to produce product, which proved to be extremely popular, by several magnitudes, despite years of experience that should've made it blatantly obvious the demand is going to be huge?

BSF may have stuck around simply because they've got some remaining in at .least one warehouse

or even a decent sized order in for the paper components before they realised the whole of 2020 and a good chunk of 2021 was stuffed release wise so they might as well run the plastic and box it up,

by the time cursed city rolled round they knew the release schedule was stuffed long term plus they may (i'm not convinced given how fast other box sets have sold) even have belived they'd done a 6 months worth production run

but dropping any idea of reprinting (and maybe dropping any planned expansions which from what it says in the rule book and website were going to happen) they may have made enough release schedule/production line space to keep 40K and AoS, their biggest money spinners on track

I guess it looks like the best we can hope for is they pull out the moulds again in a few years time and dash off another run like they kept doing with space hulk

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Hanlan's Razor is useless in the era of multi-million corporations purposefully trying to get every last cent out of your pocket, then pretending it was just a mistake (for a completely random example, Star Wars Battlefront 2). In fact, in case of a modern corporation, it is much smarter to assume the reverse; "never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice"

Reality is much simpler : people at the top aren't as smart as the crowd assumes they are ("they are succeeding / paid way more than us, they must be special in comparison to us !" - spoiler : they aren't, most of them are just lucky or have the "special gift" of being born in a very rich family / favorable surrounding).

There is malice around the world, sure, but stupidity is much more common. Arrogance leading to stupid situations too. Especially in modern corporations.

Here, I believe it's more a case of stupid people doing stupid things at the wrong time.

But it's much more glamorous to believe this is all a conspiration all along, indeed. Like all conspiration theories.

GW using FOMO tactics to boost their sales is one thing. Believing all this mess with really bad reputation for them was a nefarious plan to suck to the last cent of our wallet is another.

Is it not much simpler and more reasonable to assume a multi-million corporation simply tried to create artificial scarcity, as countless before them had done countless times, than to try to come up with a convoluted explanation to why they somehow misjudged the demand for a cheap to produce product, which proved to be extremely popular, by several magnitudes, despite years of experience that should've made it blatantly obvious the demand is going to be huge?

GW play about with artificial scarcity all the time, particularly for these sort of boxed sets, but they’re usually pretty upfront it’s a limited time release to build hype.

This time they made out in advance like it was going to be a long term product with expansions and stuff like BSF, then they ran out, then no one seemed to know what was going on with mixed messages coming out of official channels, now they’re saying no they don’t expect it to come back.

Just smacks of incompetence to me. If it were some nefarious master plan one would expect it to be better executed, they’ve done this enough times and it’s not usually this much of a mess.