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Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
... should've only ever had one codex to begin with...

Based on what metric?

All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book

Books aren't published to meet in-game lore.

Books are published to meet demand from customers.

If, hypothetically, 5% of customers play Xenos and 50% of customers play just Dark Angels, all Xenos need to be put into a single book and Dark Angels need to be split into 10 different books to get roughly comparable coverage.

It'd be unfair (not to mention stupid from a business perspective) to provide the same amount of publications to 50% as you do to just 5%.

And Dark Angels are Space Marines, while the whole lot of players with Iron Hands and White Scars armies in 7th were able to get by fine with just one codex.

So really what IS your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Pennance of Remembrance, while still good, won't work on a term ancient that just teleported down. He needs to be on table in command phase.

*looks at Bladeguard*

They can't teleport, can't take Impulsors in a Deathwing detachment, and have Indomitus Ancients available for as little as £6 on ebay. Perfect for footslogging it into battle.

Use Impulsors from a different detachment then?

While rubber needs to meet the road, the Dark Angels are looking like the strongest Space Marine dex right now. That's saying something when you look at White Scars and BA.

I don't think they are as absurd as 8th edition Iron Hands, like some suggested, but I am a bit concerned they may be a bit oppressive out the gate.

Either way, I'm glad that we are mostly moving on from SM at this point. Looking forward to the Dark Eldar and Ad Mech.

So, am seeing that right, if I charge greenwing marines like helblasters, erradicators or intercessors, they get to shoot me in the face hitting on 4+ during their turn?

 Jidmah wrote:
So, am seeing that right, if I charge greenwing marines like helblasters, erradicators or intercessors, they get to shoot me in the face hitting on 4+ during their turn?

If they don't move, yes.

That necron codex that i thought looked really cool when it came out suddenly looks like a poor relation lol

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
That necron codex that i thought looked really cool when it came out suddenly looks like a poor relation lol

Necron codex has some pretty glaring issues though, especially with the use of CORE.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
That necron codex that i thought looked really cool when it came out suddenly looks like a poor relation lol

Necron codex has some pretty glaring issues though, especially with the use of CORE.

TBF only marines seem to be getting widespread core.
DG have same issue as Necrons wrg to core. They only have 5 units I believe with core. Then you have Daemon vehicles not getting legion traits, (Like with Necrons having detroyer type being different)

I think you will see most codex outside of SM having majority of units not core

Doohicky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
That necron codex that i thought looked really cool when it came out suddenly looks like a poor relation lol

Necron codex has some pretty glaring issues though, especially with the use of CORE.

TBF only marines seem to be getting widespread core.
DG have same issue as Necrons wrg to core. They only have 5 units I believe with core. Then you have Daemon vehicles not getting legion traits, (Like with Necrons having detroyer type being different)

I think you will see most codex outside of SM having majority of units not core

Oh trust me if you've seen any post I've made in the last two weeks you'll see I have quite a few problems with the Death Guard codex.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:GW seems to be going along this line of thinking " When every codex in the game is OP, then nobody will be op! "

That actually sounds, right? And everyone wants their faction to be awesome, so I don't see a problem?

Umm, no. If they're all OP then categorically they're not OP relative to anything, they just feel strong.

If every army has OP options, then you're just talking about bad internal faction balance.

If they're each OP when released then it's just escalation and not balance.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:GW seems to be going along this line of thinking " When every codex in the game is OP, then nobody will be op! "

That actually sounds, right? And everyone wants their faction to be awesome, so I don't see a problem?

Umm, no. If they're all OP then categorically they're not OP relative to anything, they just feel strong.

If every army has OP options, then you're just talking about bad internal faction balance.

If they're each OP when released then it's just escalation and not balance.

Your first statement is what I meant. Every faction should "feel strong", but each new codex will feel "OP" in relation to those that haven't been updated from 8th. I'm definitely not advocating that each faction have a few "OP options". Just that each feels strong in relation to others. No obviously weak codexes. That would be a good thing.

There's a different between strong, and getting free upgrades to units from an already strong codex. GW went with the free upgrades option here for DA, and that concerns me greatly.
Either we're going to get nerfed hard or we're going to be suffering from early codex Blues again as every subsequent codex creeps even further up the power scale. I'd like to be wrong, but long time DA players know we can't have nice things...

Every time I get an inclination to start a Primaris force because some of the models look nice, I check the prices and it brings me back down to earth. $84AUD for 3 models? Ouch, no thanks.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
GW seems to be going along this line of thinking " When every codex in the game is OP, then nobody will be op! "

There is one op. The latest codex.

The codex creep is sort of funny I must admit. I guess we won’t know until we see how they perform physically though, paper isn’t always right.
I can’t wait though for when my AdMech are disgustingly broken so my friends with earlier codexes have a horrific time until I don’t want to field them anymore! But at least their armies with later books will get to then in turn demolish me once they come until we all quit 9th like we do every edition near the end until 10th where the cynical cycle of masochism can once again begin.

*fixes tie*
We have fun.

How do you even know it is op??? The book hasn't even released. They were annihalated in the tabletop titans battle report.

There's definitely power in there but I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:GW seems to be going along this line of thinking " When every codex in the game is OP, then nobody will be op! "

That actually sounds, right? And everyone wants their faction to be awesome, so I don't see a problem?

Umm, no. If they're all OP then categorically they're not OP relative to anything, they just feel strong.

If every army has OP options, then you're just talking about bad internal faction balance.

If they're each OP when released then it's just escalation and not balance.

Your first statement is what I meant. Every faction should "feel strong", but each new codex will feel "OP" in relation to those that haven't been updated from 8th. I'm definitely not advocating that each faction have a few "OP options". Just that each feels strong in relation to others. No obviously weak codexes. That would be a good thing.

But then GW would have to bring Matt Ward back to write up some over the top epic fluff -and in the end the player who ad the most Knights to their list win.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
... should've only ever had one codex to begin with...

Based on what metric?

All the Dynasties get by with one book
All the Septs get by with one book
All the Kabals get by with one book
All the Cults get by with one book
All the Hive Fleets get by with one book
All the Clans get by with one book
All the Regiments get by with one book
All the Orders get by with one book
All the Daemon Legions get by with one book
All the Forge Worlds get by with one book

Books aren't published to meet in-game lore.

Books are published to meet demand from customers.

If, hypothetically, 5% of customers play Xenos and 50% of customers play just Dark Angels, all Xenos need to be put into a single book and Dark Angels need to be split into 10 different books to get roughly comparable coverage.

It'd be unfair (not to mention stupid from a business perspective) to provide the same amount of publications to 50% as you do to just 5%.

This doesn't make any sense at all. Codices should be (and are, mostly) released based on the amount of material which could be created for a given faction, not its popularity. If DAs were 50% of the meta, adding more options to them in particular would only bloat the faction and make for a bunch of useless choices and units that overwhelm players. Imagine someone telling you that you need 6 different books to make the best build for your legion. That's ridiculous. Also, making more DA books would just encourage more players to play DAs over other factions, which leads to a higher percentage of identical matches, which leads to stale gameplay, which leads to people quitting because they're tired of playing against fething Dark Angels all day.

Meanwhile, adding support for unpopular factions increases their popularity, which also leads to more books and minis sold. A person who buys DAs and plays them forever buys three books, and a person who buys DAs but switches to Orks buys four, plus some more minis on the side. Basic economics. A diverse metagame is also beneficial since you don't feel as if your opponents' armies always have the same playstyle or aesthetic. Tau and Tsons are fundamentally different armies to look at and play against, and that sort of variety is a good thing.

As for "books being published to meet demand," the most popular books pick up the slack for the least popular ones. The price of printing a couple books for the least popular faction in the game is far less than the opportunity cost of people quitting the hobby because half their units got squatted, or because they have to share their codex with a bunch of other random factions. This in turn leads to a less diverse metagame, which leads to, again, more people quitting. It's basic economics.

This problem to an extent is what's happening with Space Marines right now. The only difference is that Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines are currently the two factions in the game which actually have room for a bunch of extra codices, since each legion has such a distinctive identity. As much as I love Evil Sunz, for instance, I know they really don't have enough room for an entire book of their own. If they shared it with Blood Axes and Snakebites, maybe, but at the end of the day there's just more to say about Bobby G than Wazdakka Gutsmek. The only issue is that Chaos, Imperium, and Xenos aren't getting their codices out fast enough, and some of them really do deserve joint supplements that I know we're not going to get (namely Orks, Nids, and Guard).

Should be for what? Not for players sake at least. Everything is aimed at gw making　profits. So books should be released on what makes most profits. More　books for non selling factions isn't efficient.

Everything　revolves around "what makes profit". Fluff, balance, what factions need, what players feel　all are　irrelevant. Profit is everything.

 Flipsiders wrote:
The only difference is that Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines are currently the two factions in the game which actually have room for a bunch of extra codices, since each legion has such a distinctive identity. As much as I love Evil Sunz, for instance, I know they really don't have enough room for an entire book of their own.

That's not true.

Blood Angels didn't get a bunch of variant units, expanded background, and a marginally different playstyle compared to Doom Eagles because those changes inherently existed - they were created in order to MAKE Blood Angels more different, thus justifying the different rules.

If the same process was applied to Evil Sunz, they could easily 'deserve' a separate Codex/Supplement to the same extent that Blood Angels do.

(Not that Blood Angels OR Evil Sunz should actually have separate books from their parent factions of course!)

tneva82 wrote:
Should be for what? Not for players sake at least. Everything is aimed at gw making　profits. So books should be released on what makes most profits. More　books for non selling factions isn't efficient.

Everything　revolves around "what makes profit". Fluff, balance, what factions need, what players feel　all are　irrelevant. Profit is everything.

It's a balance though. If you go all in on marines it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where it's the only thing that's popular and people will eventually get burned out on them.

The value of the lesser played races is more than just the number of units you shift in any given month. It's about having a more complete game and more complete universe and providing more interesting battles than just marines vs marines, they give an option for players who might not care for marines or a 2nd army for someone who primarily plays marines, and if they're invested in more you'll end up with more people buying and playing them.

tneva82 wrote:
So books should be released on what makes most profits. More books for non selling factions isn't efficient.

And that's why Sisters of Battle got re-done.

Wait, wait?

Umbros wrote:
How do you even know it is op??? The book hasn't even released. They were annihalated in the tabletop titans battle report.

There's definitely power in there but I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

I’m just being grumpy. I’m sure they’ll be fine when actually played.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


And Dark Angels are Space Marines, while the whole lot of players with Iron Hands and White Scars armies in 7th were able to get by fine with just one codex.

So really what IS your point?

That there is a need for more Marine books, if more people play Marines. If the Marine-fan-base grows further, they'll need to publish more supplements (Templars? upgrade some White Dwarf supplements like Spears of the Emperor, Silver Templars, etc..? Make up new Chapters they can spin off into supplements, etc.. ) to keep the resource-allocation roughly on par with one book-release for every, dunno, 25,000 40K-customers.

Don't know why people just can't grasp that DA, BA, and SW have been "different" forever now. More than Ultras, Fists, Scars etc. Constant whining about just makes you look like a donkey cave.
Yes, they are marines, but GW have been pushing them as marines+ for decades, and I expect that will continue.

For Dark Angels, goes back to 2nd Ed Epic Space Marine, if memory serves.

I could well be misremembering (it is after all a long time ago), but I’m sure both the Deathwing and Ravenwing both had Company Cards, with additional rules? Rave wing may have been entirely unique as a company comprised of Bikers and Landspeeders.

Other than that, Space Wolves go back to the very tail end of Rogue Trader, in so far as they got Roger, Nigel and Eric as named characters. Ultramarines got the first Marine Codex in 2nd Ed, then Space Wolves (introducing Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. I think. Those may have been in Epic as well?), finally Angels of Death, a combo-codex for Blood and Dark Angels.

Slight error in memory there, Doc - Space Wolves had the very first Codex in 2nd edition, followed by Eldar and Orks, all in 1994.

Ultramarines didn't see the light of day as a Codex until 1995, while Angels of Death was 1996.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other than that, Space Wolves go back to the very tail end of Rogue Trader, in so far as they got Roger, Nigel and Eric as named characters. Ultramarines got the first Marine Codex in 2nd Ed, then Space Wolves (introducing Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. I think. Those may have been in Epic as well?), finally Angels of Death, a combo-codex for Blood and Dark Angels.

Space Wolves were first (IIRC SW were the first Codex for 2nd Ed) but yes.

tneva82 wrote:
Should be for what? Not for players sake at least. Everything is aimed at gw making　profits. So books should be released on what makes most profits. More　books for non selling factions isn't efficient.

Everything　revolves around "what makes profit". Fluff, balance, what factions need, what players feel　all are　irrelevant. Profit is everything.

You forget one thing- GW doesn't have a functioning market research team. These clowns had to be TOLD that people want SoBs in an online poll, cause GW is fifty years behind North Korea when it comes to market research. GW sticks to making marines cause they know marines sell, but they have absolutely no idea why things sell and why other things don't sell. The Imperium of Man is 100% based on GW's business line.

 The Phazer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other than that, Space Wolves go back to the very tail end of Rogue Trader, in so far as they got Roger, Nigel and Eric as named characters. Ultramarines got the first Marine Codex in 2nd Ed, then Space Wolves (introducing Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. I think. Those may have been in Epic as well?), finally Angels of Death, a combo-codex for Blood and Dark Angels.

Space Wolves were first (IIRC SW were the first Codex for 2nd Ed) but yes.

Correct. Wolves were the first one to get codex.

Yes Space Marines have expanded a ton (especially with replacing all the normal units with primaris versions) but so have quite a few other factions over the past few editions, in some cases returning from the dead from long ago.
Harlequins went from a single unit with two specialists to their own faction.
Genestealer cults returned from 2nd edition to become a full army.
Admech went from a single tech priest and servitors in guard to a pair of mini factions to a full army.
Knights went from a mostly forgotten unit in Epic to a mainstay unit to varied army.
Thousand sons and death guard grew from single units and characters into their own books.

Yes, marines have a lot of faction bloat and spinoffs, but they started with a larger range of kits.