Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Voss wrote:
No idea what it was like in 7th, and don't care enough to dig out older books, but the 8e and 9e version are nigh identical, except the storm shield.

it happend with the 5th Edition Codex, as the old 3rd Edi options were cut down (from 2 Plasmapistols + 2 Power Weapons + leader, to 2 in total + leader) and with the replacemant of 5th Edition Codex, it happend again (from 2 in total to 1)

which is exactly my point, GW did not cross a new line with 9th DG as this already happend before it was just that no one cared the amount of players using Scouts was always limited, and it was said the be our own fault for using such a niche unit

this does not mean that we should not complain about, it is just not something new

 kodos wrote:

Voss wrote:
No idea what it was like in 7th, and don't care enough to dig out older books, but the 8e and 9e version are nigh identical, except the storm shield.

it happend with the 5th Edition Codex, as the old 3rd Edi options were cut down (from 2 Plasmapistols + 2 Power Weapons + leader, to 2 in total + leader) and with the replacemant of 5th Edition Codex, it happend again (from 2 in total to 1)

which is exactly my point, GW did not cross a new line with 9th DG as this already happend before it was just that no one cared the amount of players using Scouts was always limited, and it was said the be our own fault for using such a niche unit

this does not mean that we should not complain about, it is just not something new

Honestly I'd have thrown a fit on your behalf if I had noticed. Wolf Scouts I've simply never paid attention to since they were always kinda...almost bad.

 kodos wrote:

Voss wrote:
No idea what it was like in 7th, and don't care enough to dig out older books, but the 8e and 9e version are nigh identical, except the storm shield.

it happend with the 5th Edition Codex, as the old 3rd Edi options were cut down (from 2 Plasmapistols + 2 Power Weapons + leader, to 2 in total + leader) and with the replacemant of 5th Edition Codex, it happend again (from 2 in total to 1)

which is exactly my point, GW did not cross a new line with 9th DG as this already happend before it was just that no one cared the amount of players using Scouts was always limited, and it was said the be our own fault for using such a niche unit

this does not mean that we should not complain about, it is just not something new

Yeah, see. It is different. Cutting down the number of special weapons you can spam on cheap scout bodies is a legit game balance decision, whereas 'kit dictates rules' is just crazy. That it leads to a tetris puzzle powerup for min/maxed DG units doesn't change how messed up it is.

It could have been a balance issue but you have to remember wolf scouts weren't in troops. They had access to more weapons of a potent nature but not for enough numbers to actually throw off the game just be different.

I mean I don't recall seeing any crazy broke wolf scout lists, ever really. I'd add its never the players fault for enjoying a niche unit in a codex, screwing it over is always GWs fault for be consistently inconsistent.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
It could have been a balance issue but you have to remember wolf scouts weren't in troops. They had access to more weapons of a potent nature but not for enough numbers to actually throw off the game just be different.

I mean I don't recall seeing any crazy broke wolf scout lists, ever really. I'd add its never the players fault for enjoying a niche unit in a codex, screwing it over is always GWs fault for be consistently inconsistent.

You really trust GW for that to be a balance issue? Lemme tell you something: what happened to Plague Marines and Blightlords was NOT a balance issue.

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess if you define it narrowly enough, it surely feels like a completely unprecedented change.

However, GW curbing options because the aren't in the box is the same GW curbing options because the aren't in the box.

Kanz no longer being able to take additional ranged arms from a second kanz box is the same as blightlords no longer being able to take combi-weapons from a second blightlords box. Same goes for the dread which is now forced into two klaws only. Except DG players got off easy because the kitbashed blightlords or plague marines can still be fielded as a blightlord, while the dual rokkit kan or the quad klaw dread needs to be broken apart.

All of the changes I listed were forced out of the blue on a unit that has had their respective kit for year.

If you think those ork changes are within reason, you have absolutely no right to complain about any of the DG changes, because the only two models actually invalidated are the winged daemon prince with spitter and the icon bearer with dual knives.

So what was wrong in them saying that you could make say 2 special weapons at less than 10 men and 4 at 10 men ? Then list what they considered special and add the extras that could be taken at 5 or 10 men ?

I mean they incentive you to buy two boxes anyways as that gives you 4 special weapons. They obviously expect you to be able to understand buying more than one of something to get the options you want. No matter how you slice it the option changes were wrong, whenever they are rolled out.

Terminators having a squad full of combi plasma, melta , flamers, has been around for a long time and they don't rule every tournament list they were just a fun unit and a tool in the box. Limiting it, seemingly at random, is dumb not done to any passing nod towards balance and really just a seemingly pointless nerf.

But Wolf Scouts didn't have a kit that suddenly was reduced in options to the limits of the sprue.

So it's not the same thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But Wolf Scouts didn't have a kit that suddenly was reduced in options to the limits of the sprue.

So it's not the same thing.

They don't want to understand. You can lead a horse to water, can't make a drink.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
It could have been a balance issue but you have to remember wolf scouts weren't in troops. They had access to more weapons of a potent nature but not for enough numbers to actually throw off the game just be different.

I mean I don't recall seeing any crazy broke wolf scout lists, ever really. I'd add its never the players fault for enjoying a niche unit in a codex, screwing it over is always GWs fault for be consistently inconsistent.

'Troops' didn't matter. What mattered is they could just turn up on the opponent's table edge with meltaguns and start burning through their opponent's parking lot, with no counterplay (beyond the hypothetical conga-line of kroot along the board edge). There was definitely a balance issue in play, whether you personally saw 'crazy broke lists' or not.
It has zero to do with 'the player's fault' though. I'm not sure what that's about.

Its still about the _fact_ that the DG changes are about the kit dictating rules without regard to the game, rather than game designers making judgement calls- whether they turn out well or are frankly stupid decisions. None of the 'gotchas' that people are trying to come up with deal with that.

I could understand the whole kit thing limitation or the want for less leathality on the tables, if the boxs for DG, and chaos in general, came without enough parts to make full basic load out squads.

I don't like the idea of one melta and one plasma squad. But the idea that to get a unit of 10 bolter or 10 ccw+pistol models you need to buy 2 boxs, is just stupid. And the DG termintors are like that too. If someone were to decide to just run stock unit of termis with a flail, they can't do it, because there aren't enough combi bolters and swords in the box.

And with monopose unit this becomes even more problematic sometimes, specially if GW decided to give the unit very distinct load out unit leaders or specialists.

Oddly enough this makes primaris with their, whole unit armed the same, a safer option to collect and buy.

 jeff white wrote:

Why do you pay them for bad rules made only to increase their profits at your expense?

Oh. I was supposed to pay for those rules I found lying about on-line?

 jeff white wrote:
Randos? Wtf? You game at a nightclub for NPCs?

Yeah, those people who come into the shop who are not yet classed as friends. As they don't mean anything to me they might as well be NPCs.

 jeff white wrote:

Wallstreetbets is a community of small investors making big changes by acting together. GW should be similarly vulnerable.

So let's all buy GW stock.

Kits dictating rules...oh my...have any you looked into the ork buggies?

It's so epic...in the bad way.

So the most used one, the megatrack scrappjet has two different types of weapons; heavy shootas and rokkits. So far so good. Now then, half the shoota shots are at 4+ and the other at 5+. And the rokkits, some goes at 5+ and the addtional one at 4+ or 6+.

Like...really?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But Wolf Scouts didn't have a kit that suddenly was reduced in options to the limits of the sprue.

So it's not the same thing.

They don't want to understand. You can lead a horse to water, can't make a drink.

Or, just maybe, you don't actually have a point. Reducing options is bad no matter what, and this case is neither exceptionally harsh nor unprecedented.

People haven't cared when this happend to other armies every other release for over almost a decade now, tearing apart models and buying new stuff to fix your units/army has been a normal part of playing 40k for me since 5th whenever an edition, codex or campaign books hit. In some cases even FAQs were enough.
It's bordering hypocrisy how the need to switch around some models, changing a bit as tiny as a combi-plasma on a model, using counts-as or buying a new box is suddenly supposed to be crossing a line that should not be crossed, when people playing other armies have been expected to do exactly that regularly.

The one reason why this is causing such a wave is because some marines are losing their privileged status. Nothing hurts more than losing privileges.
And yes, I do play DG and yes, multiple of my models are affected by these changes. And no, I'm not particularly surprised by any of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
Kits dictating rules...oh my...have any you looked into the ork buggies?

It's so epic...in the bad way.

So the most used one, the megatrack scrappjet has two different types of weapons; heavy shootas and rokkits. So far so good. Now then, half the shoota shots are at 4+ and the other at 5+. And the rokkits, some goes at 5+ and the addtional one at 4+ or 6+.

Like...really?

Don't forget a about the squigbuggy which takes twice as long to shoot because one squig launcher has a grot next to it and the other doesn't.

It's bordering hypocrisy how the need to switch around some models, changing a bit as tiny as a combi-plasma on a model, using counts-as or buying a new box is suddenly supposed to be crossing a line that should not be crossed, when people playing other armies have been expected to do exactly that regularly.

So something bad is okey to happen, and acceptable, because it happened to others? The problem withDG is that they are marines, which means there is always a threat that the same kind of things could happen to csm, or other marine armies that weren't primarised. And buying a box of units, just to get 1 model to have a legal unit is insane, and counts as works only when it is WYSIWYG, can't counts as 1 melta, plasma and flamer model as just combi bolter when they are each different weapon, and even less so when you want to run combi bolters with melta or plasma on your rhinos.

And this is a really big problem for new players, because I understand that someone who plays for 30 years doesn't care, but a new player hearing that to get a single unit they need to buy 2 box is not a good thing to hear.

Karol, you don't even understand the problem properly, so at the very least don't take stuff out of context.

New players are affected the least, if anything it's better for them this way.

there is always a threat that the same kind of things could happen to csm, or other marine armies that weren't primarised

And yes, this is the one and only reason why people are complaining right now and weren't complaining when GW invalidated entire ork, dark eldar or tyranid collections.

 jeff white wrote:
Why do you pay them for bad rules made only to increase their profits at your expense?

I don't. I'm not going to pay for this trash.

 jeff white wrote:
? Wtf? You game at a nightclub for NPCs?

Unless you're only ever going to play with a singular small group, yeah, you're going to be playing randos.

And the chances of having somebody you've never played with before agreeing to a bunch of house rules you're bringing with you is slim to none. (And even if they do, you've got to explain them every time you play somebody new)

 jeff white wrote:
Nobody wants counts as... which is why we should ignore GW on this and all future bs manipulations.

It absolutely should not be necessary to ignore the rules which are required/designed to allow the game to be played, and which didn't have this issue previously.

 Jidmah wrote:
Karol, you don't even understand the problem properly, so at the very least don't take stuff out of context.

Well that is the most hypocritical thing I've read this month.

 Jidmah wrote:
Karol, you don't even understand the problem properly, so at the very least don't take stuff out of context.

New players are affected the least, if anything it's better for them this way.

there is always a threat that the same kind of things could happen to csm, or other marine armies that weren't primarised

And yes, this is the one and only reason why people are complaining right now and weren't complaining when GW invalidated entire ork, dark eldar or tyranid collections.

Actually people DID complain, just that GW wasn't pretending to be customer oriented when those things happened to those armies. I get you wanna be a martyr for Orks or whatever, but youd probably have better spent your energy sending GW emails and not buying their codices to make a difference. Ya know, instead of being a white knight for GW because Orks.

 Lord Damocles wrote:


It absolutely should not be necessary to ignore the rules which are required/designed to allow the game to be played, and which didn't have this issue previously.

I made bold the important parts... so, RT it is then... though 2nd is my favorite.

Just to make my point of view clear one last time, since people intentionally skip over that part every time because they dislike my opinion:

Taking away options and invalidating models is the worst part of the hobby.
Having to break/put away things you spend so much money and time on is horrible, I literally know no other hobby which does this as regularly.
I (mostly) enjoy 40k despite that.

The reason why GW axed options this time is rather irrelevant. There is no good reason to do this, and they for sure won't apply this consistently across the game. For what I can tell, they are behaving completely erratically anyways and the only truth is that any of your models/units can become worthless lumps of plastic/metal/resin and paint every time GW decides to do so.

And yes, I have sent plenty of emails to GW about that topic, including the current one. I just don't write about it every other post because I have no urge to cater to people who get off on their GW hate.

I still stand with my opinion that people whining about this do not deserve any sympathy because at the current blightlord and plague marines kits were released this has been a dark and evil part of the hobby for many, many years. Everyone including me knew what we were signing up for when you bought yet another army from GW and went out of your way to kitbash and convert all these load-outs which are now illegal. Or maybe you were in denial about it and thought it wouldn't affect you, but anyone on these forums for longer than two weeks should have known better.
For those few who actually did start out with DG and are reading here? I'm sorry for your loss, but be aware that you got of easy this time, next time GW might not be as kind. Play those LoC while you still can.

When buying plastic crack, be a responsible adult and always take into account that GW will eventually make your models unplayable, either by giving them terrible rules, confining them to certain game modes you don't play or by actually removing them from the game completely.

GW is not our friend, GW is our dealer pretending to be our friend.
If you buy meth, don't cry about losing teeth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually people DID complain, just that GW wasn't pretending to be customer oriented when those things happened to those armies. I get you wanna be a martyr for Orks or whatever, but youd probably have better spent your energy sending GW emails and not buying their codices to make a difference. Ya know, instead of being a white knight for GW because Orks.

Kind of hilarious, considering how I'm a DG player and you are not.

Jidmah wrote:I still stand with my opinion that people whining about this do not deserve any sympathy

Ah. 'People can go feth themselves' is always a lovely stance to take, no matter what you put in bold and a larger font, and no matter what armies you play

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually people DID complain, just that GW wasn't pretending to be customer oriented when those things happened to those armies. I get you wanna be a martyr for Orks or whatever, but youd probably have better spent your energy sending GW emails and not buying their codices to make a difference. Ya know, instead of being a white knight for GW because Orks.

Kind of hilarious, considering how I'm a DG player and you are not.

I've used the CSM codex and consequently the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codices on numerous occasions actually. Not relegating myself to an official color scheme gives me the ability to not be hampered by what GW does terribly. So I have plenty of room to speak freely, thank you very much, as well as know GW gave us garbage with that PA book while you decided to PRAISE the fact we got to pay CP for abilities that should've been baked in to begin with. So no, don't act like you're THE Death Guard guy, because you absolutely are NOT.

GW is not our friend, GW is our dealer pretending to be our friend.
If you buy meth, don't cry about losing teeth.

"If you buy a house with faulty wiring, don't complain when your family is burned alive"

WTF kind of an attitude is that? GW is NOT selling meth. They are a "legitimate" company and should be held to those standards.

This kind of attitude is downright pathetic. And i've said it before and i'll say it again. If this kind of fuckery doesn't affect you and you don't care when GW screws you over, then you don't deserve an opinion on this subject.

Also, everyone who voted "it amuses me that people are limited by this" deserves to get their army gak canned. Thats a straight up dill weed attitude to have.

Kind of hilarious, considering how I'm a DG player and you are not

I'm a DG player and I think this new codex is hacked up dog gak.

At some point we have to realize that certain posters want to crap on people and will engage in whatever mental gymnastics needed to justify it. It's time to ignore and move on.

Voss wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I still stand with my opinion that people whining about this do not deserve any sympathy

Ah. 'People can go feth themselves' is always a lovely stance to take, no matter what you put in bold and a larger font, and no matter what armies you play

Exalted.

 Jidmah wrote:


people whining about this do not deserve any sympathy

I think I missed the part where anyone asked for your sympathy.

Its a mistake to think everyone is in the same spot that you are and base your opinion on that. I learned long ago that in any hobby or pastime I might take part in, there would always be people massively more dedicated to it than I could or would want to be.

In the case of 40k, the tournament meta chasers probably don't care at all about this change and possible future changes. They were always going to use the best possible units until they aren't, and are used to constant turnover. Buy a pile of Space Marines planes, then swap them out for Razorbacks, then for Ynnari Dark Reapers and inevitably the next big thing. This player expects to need a new army every time there are new rules and/or codex. And more power to them, play however you want.

So thats one legitimate opinion. Many others have a more negative view. And the larger the subset of people sharing a view, the more relevant it becomes. A small subset of players do not speak for the hobby. I see a lot of low post count lurkers like myself posting in the thread, and that also says something. And I'm glad to see it.

GW is not our friend, GW is our dealer pretending to be our friend.
If you buy meth, don't cry about losing teeth.

Again, this is projecting. Speaking for myself(!), I see the way this was done as different than what has happened before. If 2 units are changed, then so be it I will adapt. If my armies end up gutted, then I'll switch to woodworking or some other hobby.

Voss wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I still stand with my opinion that people whining about this do not deserve any sympathy

Ah. 'People can go feth themselves' is always a lovely stance to take, no matter what you put in bold and a larger font, and no matter what armies you play

I agree that players negatively impacted by these rules changes deserve sympathy. However, the amount of sympathy people are able to extend them is inversely proportional to the amount of complaining those players make.

When you say, "Man, this sucks. Why did GW have to do that." You will get lots of sympathy.

When you go on reiterating the point time and time again and also say, "but this is different" from all the other armies that have received similar if not identical treatment in the past... Well then you get

But this is different. How do you not understand this?

Voss wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
It could have been a balance issue but you have to remember wolf scouts weren't in troops. They had access to more weapons of a potent nature but not for enough numbers to actually throw off the game just be different.

I mean I don't recall seeing any crazy broke wolf scout lists, ever really. I'd add its never the players fault for enjoying a niche unit in a codex, screwing it over is always GWs fault for be consistently inconsistent.

'Troops' didn't matter. What mattered is they could just turn up on the opponent's table edge with meltaguns and start burning through their opponent's parking lot, with no counterplay (beyond the hypothetical conga-line of kroot along the board edge). There was definitely a balance issue in play, whether you personally saw 'crazy broke lists' or not.
It has zero to do with 'the player's fault' though. I'm not sure what that's about.

Its still about the _fact_ that the DG changes are about the kit dictating rules without regard to the game, rather than game designers making judgement calls- whether they turn out well or are frankly stupid decisions. None of the 'gotchas' that people are trying to come up with deal with that.

One melta isn't exactly " OMG Insta dead ! " option. I would say now " Every " unit does that so what exactly is the reasoning for getting ride of wolf scouts weapon options again ? Eradicators are more of a no brainer move than wolf scouts ever were. I bring that up because this was the edition they got rid of them pretty much, for no reason at all but to bone people who actually followed decade old rules for the units creation. Which to me is wrong.

I brought up the power or balance because people are claiming, not you perhaps, but some here, that the reason for the rules changes for DG weapons was about balance, when it sure as crap isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Karol, you don't even understand the problem properly, so at the very least don't take stuff out of context.

New players are affected the least, if anything it's better for them this way.

there is always a threat that the same kind of things could happen to csm, or other marine armies that weren't primarised

And yes, this is the one and only reason why people are complaining right now and weren't complaining when GW invalidated entire ork, dark eldar or tyranid collections.

Actually people DID complain, just that GW wasn't pretending to be customer oriented when those things happened to those armies. I get you wanna be a martyr for Orks or whatever, but youd probably have better spent your energy sending GW emails and not buying their codices to make a difference. Ya know, instead of being a white knight for GW because Orks.

Yeah I would say I agree with slayer here, I have spoken out pretty often about loss of option for no reason as being awful for quite awhile even if it doesn't hit my own army. What is most annoying about this is it makes no sense out side the " Only whats in one box because no one will buy two and make say, two 7 man squads one with 2 plasma and one with 2 of the launchers, or no one will get extra CCWs, etc. Little kids can't afford this game, grown people can ( and even then it's getting kind rich out there for some ). We should be expected to understand how to get, make or find extras for options we want.

As even this yeah sounds great for new players, until they change their mind again and oh look, you can take as many combi plas or meltas or what have you as you want now again ! Now all those used to be new players are like " Well, looks like I need to get some of these " do it and then have it what stripped away again or moved around for no reason ?

The choice to do it with DG isn't consistent with other armies at all, or even other units as they rarely ever give you enough in the kit for the good set ups out of just one box and somehow we all made it work before now.

Edit: I get certain people don't like it, certain people don't care, such is fine. Saying bad stuff happens all around, doesn't make it better. We should speak out on this whenever and to whoever it happens to. It's annoying and troublesome and wrong. I for one am not asking for sympathy but venting it out here, with others, does feel good.

For those who agree it sucks, thanks for those who don't, thanks for at least chiming in. I'd say we shouldn't turn on each other during this though. It's not any of our faults this happens, it's GWs and they suck pretty bad for it.

I think it's evident that GW hopes that all of its players from the game side will become competitive. I think in their mind, that would be a win-win: force people to burst through miniatures at a pace that the company decides, while the hobby side more or less buy what they want, when they want since they do not play.

The historical ignorance of GW regarding they customer is still largely therr

At the same time I think it's a losing idea in the long run, none really is a 100% competitive or 100% hobbyist, people exist in shades.p