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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But this is different. How do you not understand this?

Why?

This is by far one of the worst decisions Games Workshop have ever made as a company.

you played during 6th and 7th right? blood?

Not Online!!! wrote:
you played during 6th and 7th right? blood?

Yeah and I left the game pretty much immediately because of how bad it was. I then returned near the end of 7th, and found it was a very bad game. But the thing is, as bad as 6th or 7th was, I don't recall anything that punished so many players and punished a key aspect of the hobby (by which I mean the hobby itself!). All the units I had in 5th edition could still be fielded. They might not have necessarily been good, indeed, in many cases, they were bad - but they weren't unfieldable.

What happens to all plasma Chosen units? What happens to all Lascannon Havocs? Actually what happens to Chosen in general? What happens to Terminators? What happens to Scourges? These are some of the units I can list off the top of my head but large numbers of units are poised to become illegal to field. Not 'unfieldale' in the sense they aren't competitive, but unfieldable because some knave at GW decided because he's a moron, so is little Timmy.

There is nothing that can defend this decision. The best 'defences' in this thread so far have consisted of "It helps new players!" (fantastic, maybe GW could've, like every other company in existence, just included all the potential weapon options or sold them separately) - and incidentally does so by making a lot of 'veterans' (and in many cases, other new players) very unhappy. Another was that this would minimize the danger of units being wiped (what an incredibly stupid reason), and the last consists of some weird argument that "Because I was burned when my xenos units lost options, everyone else deserves to be burned!"

I think that in the long run GW should simply remove the options to the kits, and adopt an Apocalypse strategy (so you have "weapons" on your model and some exception like "anti tank" or "improved melee weapon").

I, for one, would be all in in that. Finally I could build my toys as I like.

Don't think however that GW will ever do that (even if it will be benefit them in the long run) because they're shared as gak by the competition and the third party model suppliers.

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
you played during 6th and 7th right? blood?

Yeah and I left the game pretty much immediately because of how bad it was. I then returned near the end of 7th, and found it was a very bad game. But the thing is, as bad as 6th or 7th was, I don't recall anything that punished so many players and punished a key aspect of the hobby (by which I mean the hobby itself!). All the units I had in 5th edition could still be fielded. They might not have necessarily been good, indeed, in many cases, they were bad - but they weren't unfieldable.

What happens to all plasma Chosen units? What happens to all Lascannon Havocs? Actually what happens to Chosen in general? What happens to Terminators? What happens to Scourges? These are some of the units I can list off the top of my head but large numbers of units are poised to become illegal to field. Not 'unfieldale' in the sense they aren't competitive, but unfieldable because some knave at GW decided because he's a moron, so is little Timmy.

There is nothing that can defend this decision. The best 'defences' in this thread so far have consisted of "It helps new players!" (fantastic, maybe GW could've, like every other company in existence, just included all the potential weapon options or sold them separately) - and incidentally does so by making a lot of 'veterans' (and in many cases, other new players) very unhappy. Another was that this would minimize the danger of units being wiped (what an incredibly stupid reason), and the last consists of some weird argument that "Because I was burned when my xenos units lost options, everyone else deserves to be burned!"

Ohh i agree, and i regard it as one of their top5 worst moves, but the worst?
ehhh.
GW has done many stupid things. Like priceikes during pandemic etc.

But yeah this change is targetting the hobby side of things, moreso then balance, and i seriously doubt any argument in favour of balance that lead to this situation makes it justifyable or more justifyable then to fix the issue equipemtn/ stratagems. But the latter would've cost more time, allbeit only margially considering the litany of paragraphs now simply needing to be required to take options for a plague marine squad...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
you played during 6th and 7th right? blood?

Yeah and I left the game pretty much immediately because of how bad it was. I then returned near the end of 7th, and found it was a very bad game. But the thing is, as bad as 6th or 7th was, I don't recall anything that punished so many players and punished a key aspect of the hobby (by which I mean the hobby itself!). All the units I had in 5th edition could still be fielded. They might not have necessarily been good, indeed, in many cases, they were bad - but they weren't unfieldable.

What happens to all plasma Chosen units? What happens to all Lascannon Havocs? Actually what happens to Chosen in general? What happens to Terminators? What happens to Scourges? These are some of the units I can list off the top of my head but large numbers of units are poised to become illegal to field. Not 'unfieldale' in the sense they aren't competitive, but unfieldable because some knave at GW decided because he's a moron, so is little Timmy.

There is nothing that can defend this decision. The best 'defences' in this thread so far have consisted of "It helps new players!" (fantastic, maybe GW could've, like every other company in existence, just included all the potential weapon options or sold them separately) - and incidentally does so by making a lot of 'veterans' (and in many cases, other new players) very unhappy. Another was that this would minimize the danger of units being wiped (what an incredibly stupid reason), and the last consists of some weird argument that "Because I was burned when my xenos units lost options, everyone else deserves to be burned!"

Ohh i agree, and i regard it as one of their top5 worst moves, but the worst?
ehhh.
GW has done many stupid things. Like priceikes during pandemic etc.

But yeah this change is targetting the hobby side of things, moreso then balance, and i seriously doubt any argument in favour of balance that lead to this situation makes it justifyable or more justifyable then to fix the issue equipemtn/ stratagems. But the latter would've cost more time, allbeit only margially considering the litany of paragraphs now simply needing to be required to take options for a plague marine squad...

I mean I can't really think of a worse change in terms of people or armies impacted. I don't really think of things in a "top 5" (I think the removal of whole units and armies because they no longer had models was very very bad, for example) but ultimately this arguably impacts a far larger percentage of the playerbase. It impacts people who don't even use GW models - it impacts people who have just gotten into the game, and it impacts people who have been playing for a long, long time.

And for what reason? There's a logic (albeit a bad, and very cynical one!) to removing armies which no longer had models (specifically GWs bizarre inability to, until recently, properly present FW as part of the rules and its obscene position against converting and proxies). But this just seems stupid.

Fair enough i guess.

Agreed. It isn't that model/option removals did not deserve criticism; they did, and they got it. Abundantly. And still do. But at their heart those were still removing rules support for things that did not have model support and while that sucked one could at least understand the logic and the benefits. This is something else. Rules support removed while there is model support, for existing units with modern kits, for no benefit, for reasoning that is simply lame.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think that in the long run GW should simply remove the options to the kits, and adopt an Apocalypse strategy (so you have "weapons" on your model and some exception like "anti tank" or "improved melee weapon").

I, for one, would be all in in that. Finally I could build my toys as I like.

Don't think however that GW will ever do that (even if it will be benefit them in the long run) because they're shared as gak by the competition and the third party model suppliers.

Might as well play Risk, imho.

 jeff white wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think that in the long run GW should simply remove the options to the kits, and adopt an Apocalypse strategy (so you have "weapons" on your model and some exception like "anti tank" or "improved melee weapon").

I, for one, would be all in in that. Finally I could build my toys as I like.

Don't think however that GW will ever do that (even if it will be benefit them in the long run) because they're shared as gak by the competition and the third party model suppliers.

Might as well play Risk, imho.

I dislike the idea of removing all options as well. 40k is too abstract as it is. What GW should be doing is include the bits for all possible combinations in the kit. instead, we get silly crap like 20 heads for a 3-model unit.............

I am fine if I get half the max per kit when it comes to models that have a bunch of options. I am not going to expect GW to package every box of 5 Havocs with 30 weapons plus whatever the Champion can use, nor do I particularly wish to pay the extra that will inevitably cost. 3 of each weapon would be great by me; I could to buy two boxes and have two squads fully allocated with a specific weapon (albeit a different one for each) plus an extra I could give to a fellow player. 2 of each weapon I could handle, but only because the Champion tends to have different equipment so the 'two-box' situation above is still viable. 1 of each weapon is lame, I would rather they have fewer weapon options than be spread so thin.

But even that is far, far preferred to what happened to DG.

And that also allows for weirdos who go out and buy 4 Havoc boxes to get 4 Reaper Chaincannons.



Y'know. People Like me.

Well in the case of Havocs, it would only be 20 weapons (4 heavy boltes, 4 las cannons, 4 missile launchers, 4 auto cannons, 4 reaper chain cannons - unless I'm missing anything out?).

Now *obviously* this is impractical - what GW *really* has to do is make the Havocs even bigger and give you an option for a Chainsword and a Thunderhammer! You know, for the Champion who will never enter close combat!/s

This raises the question of why GW cannot just sell weapon packs of resin or metal weapons - or hell, even plastic weapons, cut out of the frame - saving them having to retool frames.

There is a serious answer to this question; firstly it's because the company has unfortunately moved in a direction where these side-kits and "you need product code whatever" to complete a unit is an unacceptable idea. I am going to be an open elitist when I say this is a terrible thing, and is partly the product of a tendency to bend over backwards to newcomers; though it arguably isn't even the fault of newcomers. Rather it's the fault of GW for having so little faith in the intelligence of its players. The game is destined just become more limited and anti-converter.

Secondly, part of me imagines this decision was actually made to hurt companies who produce weapon packs.

Honestly the ramifications of this decision is so insanely stupid and anti-hobby it is hard to overstate.

This is one of those "What the hell did I just read?" threads, this time because two sides who largely agree that this sucks were firing artillery shells at one another over whether or not this was precedented?

Yeah, this trend sucks, invalidating any carefully constructed model sucks, the proliferation of highly specific weapon profiles and loadouts is reducing creativity while making armies more vulnerable to model invalidation when they inevitably tear this down and go to 10th edition, and, precedented or no, is yet one more reason to stop giving GW money for this crap.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
stop giving GW money for this crap.

Yes.. More of this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And that also allows for weirdos who go out and buy 4 Havoc boxes to get 4 Reaper Chaincannons.



Y'know. People Like me.

I'll assume you had a use for all the excess CSMs, weapons, & bits that generated?

ccs wrote:
I'll assume you had a use for all the excess CSMs, weapons, & bits that generated?

Four squads of Haovcs, naturally!

One with 4 Reaper Chaincannons, one with 4 Lascannons, one with 4 Missile Launchers and I haven't decided whether to go Heavy Bolters or Autocannons for the last one. Then I can see what excess fits on the new CSM squads I have (I have 3 from that Apocalypse box they did).

Plus the Champs make for great Black Crusade character fodder.

 CEO Kasen wrote:
This is one of those "What the hell did I just read?" threads, this time because two sides who largely agree that this sucks were firing artillery shells at one another over whether or not this was precedented?

The fact there is, throughout the thread, effectively universal agreement that this is bad really does tell you how bad the change is imo.

I hope there will be enough pressure upon GW to FAQ/Errata the rule.

 blood reaper wrote:
Well in the case of Havocs, it would only be 20 weapons (4 heavy boltes, 4 las cannons, 4 missile launchers, 4 auto cannons, 4 reaper chain cannons - unless I'm missing anything out?).

Now *obviously* this is impractical - what GW *really* has to do is make the Havocs even bigger and give you an option for a Chainsword and a Thunderhammer! You know, for the Champion who will never enter close combat!/s

This raises the question of why GW cannot just sell weapon packs of resin or metal weapons - or hell, even plastic weapons, cut out of the frame - saving them having to retool frames.

There is a serious answer to this question; firstly it's because the company has unfortunately moved in a direction where these side-kits and "you need product code whatever" to complete a unit is an unacceptable idea. I am going to be an open elitist when I say this is a terrible thing, and is partly the product of a tendency to bend over backwards to newcomers; though it arguably isn't even the fault of newcomers. Rather it's the fault of GW for having so little faith in the intelligence of its players. The game is destined just become more limited and anti-converter.

Secondly, part of me imagines this decision was actually made to hurt companies who produce weapon packs.

Honestly the ramifications of this decision is so insanely stupid and anti-hobby it is hard to overstate.

if you bump a squad to 10-man all 5 of the new dudes need a gun. The remaining weapon option is a basic bolter.

Anyways, you raise some good points here. Agreed on all counts.

 blood reaper wrote:
Well in the case of Havocs, it would only be 20 weapons (4 heavy boltes, 4 las cannons, 4 missile launchers, 4 auto cannons, 4 reaper chain cannons - unless I'm missing anything out?).

Now *obviously* this is impractical - what GW *really* has to do is make the Havocs even bigger and give you an option for a Chainsword and a Thunderhammer! You know, for the Champion who will never enter close combat!/s

This raises the question of why GW cannot just sell weapon packs of resin or metal weapons - or hell, even plastic weapons, cut out of the frame - saving them having to retool frames.

There is a serious answer to this question; firstly it's because the company has unfortunately moved in a direction where these side-kits and "you need product code whatever" to complete a unit is an unacceptable idea. I am going to be an open elitist when I say this is a terrible thing, and is partly the product of a tendency to bend over backwards to newcomers; though it arguably isn't even the fault of newcomers. Rather it's the fault of GW for having so little faith in the intelligence of its players. The game is destined just become more limited and anti-converter.

Secondly, part of me imagines this decision was actually made to hurt companies who produce weapon packs.

Honestly the ramifications of this decision is so insanely stupid and anti-hobby it is hard to overstate.

It isn't impractical. Wargames Atlantic's infantry boxes get you 24 dudes and dudettes for $35, with a legion of options. The Grognards come with................ 195.................... heads.........

All praise to Wargames Atlantic for getting readily available plastic models to the market, but GW is the market leader here for a reason.

The WA models aren't in the same league as GW's plastics.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
All praise to Wargames Atlantic for getting readily available plastic models to the market, but GW is the market leader here for a reason.

The WA models aren't in the same league as GW's plastics.

Not in the same league as their newer plastics, no, but a vast improvement on things like out-of-scale 3e-vintage Cadians.

Blastaar wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Well in the case of Havocs, it would only be 20 weapons (4 heavy boltes, 4 las cannons, 4 missile launchers, 4 auto cannons, 4 reaper chain cannons - unless I'm missing anything out?).

Now *obviously* this is impractical - what GW *really* has to do is make the Havocs even bigger and give you an option for a Chainsword and a Thunderhammer! You know, for the Champion who will never enter close combat!/s

This raises the question of why GW cannot just sell weapon packs of resin or metal weapons - or hell, even plastic weapons, cut out of the frame - saving them having to retool frames.

There is a serious answer to this question; firstly it's because the company has unfortunately moved in a direction where these side-kits and "you need product code whatever" to complete a unit is an unacceptable idea. I am going to be an open elitist when I say this is a terrible thing, and is partly the product of a tendency to bend over backwards to newcomers; though it arguably isn't even the fault of newcomers. Rather it's the fault of GW for having so little faith in the intelligence of its players. The game is destined just become more limited and anti-converter.

Secondly, part of me imagines this decision was actually made to hurt companies who produce weapon packs.

Honestly the ramifications of this decision is so insanely stupid and anti-hobby it is hard to overstate.

It isn't impractical. Wargames Atlantic's infantry boxes get you 24 dudes and dudettes for $35, with a legion of options. The Grognards come with................ 195.................... heads.........

I was being sarcastic - it's entirely feasible. GW are just a dog gak company and incapable of very basic tasks. Just look at how few options the latest CSM kit has.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ccs wrote:
I'll assume you had a use for all the excess CSMs, weapons, & bits that generated?

Four squads of Haovcs, naturally!

One with 4 Reaper Chaincannons, one with 4 Lascannons, one with 4 Missile Launchers and I haven't decided whether to go Heavy Bolters or Autocannons for the last one. Then I can see what excess fits on the new CSM squads I have (I have 3 from that Apocalypse box they did).

Plus the Champs make for great Black Crusade character fodder.

My vote for autocannons.

Eh with Heavy Bolters being D2 now, I don't feel there's too much room for the Autocannon to shine now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh with Heavy Bolters being D2 now, I don't feel there's too much room for the Autocannon to shine now.

Sure there is. They just look cooler. Eventually the rules will come back around again, and they'll be better again, but they'll always look cooler.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh with Heavy Bolters being D2 now, I don't feel there's too much room for the Autocannon to shine now.

Sure there is. They just look cooler. Eventually the rules will come back around again, and they'll be better again, but they'll always look cooler.

Oh I don't disagree on that, but I'd definitely let my opponent use their Autocannons as Heavy Bolters since GW is the epitome of non-balance.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh with Heavy Bolters being D2 now, I don't feel there's too much room for the Autocannon to shine now.

Sure there is. They just look cooler. Eventually the rules will come back around again, and they'll be better again, but they'll always look cooler.

This man understands how to play Warhammer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eh with Heavy Bolters being D2 now, I don't feel there's too much room for the Autocannon to shine now.

Sure there is. They just look cooler. Eventually the rules will come back around again, and they'll be better again, but they'll always look cooler.

Oh I don't disagree on that, but I'd definitely let my opponent use their Autocannons as Heavy Bolters since GW is the epitome of non-balance.

tbf the heavy bolter also Males a snazy autocannonhybrid with a slightly longer barrell